Political Marriages for the Stark Children

[Katerine]

I'm not so sure that Sansa would have ended up with Joffrey. Although King Robert obviously wanted to join their houses, he only mentioned it to Ned once he named Ned Hand, almost like an afterthought. I think that, had Jon Arryn not died, Arryn and the Lannisters would have been the ones to have the biggest influences on the marriages of the kids as Robert drank his way into oblivion, and, especially knowing that Arryn was the one who suggested Cersei to Robert, they would choose a southern lady for Joffrey for the sake of political alliances. I don't think Cersei would be terribly fond of gaining the North's favor when the Lannisters could instead plant themselves in richer southern houses. Maybe Myrcella and Robb would be a match, but I can't see Joffrey and Sansa.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Ned already shot down Alys Karstark for Robb when they were 6, due to him not liking her father, or something like that?

[TheCrannogDweller]

Bran would probably have been married to Meera Reed, since Ned and Howland are good pals. Plus, Ned kinda needs to thank Howland for saving his life, after all.

Meera is 8 years older than Bran, so let's not go there. She's actually a better match for Robb.

[David Selig]

Meera is 8 years older than Bran, so let's not go there. She's actually a better match for Robb.

It's a terrible match politically. The crannogmen are poor and pretty limited in terms of miitary power.

I'm sure Ned wasn't the first lord of Winterfell to marry a southerner, and I don't think the Northern lords really mind it happening now and again, but anything more than a couple of generations in a row has to start being a problem, You can't really call yourself heir to the Kings of Winter when 7/8ths of your ancestors came from south of the neck.

Sure you can. The Kings of France, England and other medieval countries kept marrying foreigners generation after generation.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ned already shot down Alys Karstark for Robb when they were 6, due to him not liking her father, or something like that?

He didn't shot her down. He just postponed the decision for a decade. Truth to tell, Lord Karstark would have been insane to expect anything else at that age and in that situation.

[TheCrannogDweller]

It's a terrible match politically. The crannogmen are poor and pretty limited in terms of miitary power.

But they are of enormous strategical importance to the defense of the North. Add to that the fact that their current lord is Ned's closest friend and it doesn't sound that unlikely.

And for what is worth, this won't really be the first time - king Rickard Stark married the Marsh King's daughter after he defeated him. That's how the Neck became a part of the North.

[eggs]

Alys Karstark or Wylla Manderly would probably be Ned's first choices for Robb, but I could also see him considering Bethany Blackwood or a daughter of Yohn Royce. Sansa definitely would have married Joffrey either way, Robert wanted it, Sansa wanted it, and Ned didn't have a good reason to say no. Arya would be tricky. Trystane Martell would be a great match for her and Dorne would suit her personality but I don't see how Ned and Doran would even meet to broach to subject. She could wind up marrying Robert Arryn or Harry the Heir. Bran wants to join the Kingsguard. Rickon would probably wind up marrying a younger daughter of one of the powerful northern houses like the Manderly's or Karstark's. I suppose it's also possible he would marry into a house from the Vale or Riverlands with strong ties to the North, like Royce or Mallister.

In canon, Ned called off Sansa's engagement on the grounds that Joff was a dick so thats not really happening. same reason I dont think Theon was ever getting her.

[Ulrik1312]

He didn't shot her down. He just postponed the decision for a decade. Truth to tell, Lord Karstark would have been insane to expect anything else at that age and in that situation.

Either way, Karstark didn't wait and decided to marry his daughter to the Hornwood heir. So she is/was not available.

And for all of you who belive that the Starks would break a deal with Harry the Heir I don't think they would. Specially since Robert is still alive and he is their family. It would be an insult to Lysa and the Vale lords, it is like telling them that they are not expecting him to survive.

[eggs]

Well, how can you have Robert's Rebellion without Robert?

Think about this: why name it Robert's Rebellion, when the bulk of the fighting was carried out by soldiers from the North, the Vale and the Riverlands? In the battle of the Trident there were no more than a few hundred stormland warriors out of an army of 35 000. Robert was a great soldier, but he wasn't the one really planning and leading the rebellion - Jon Arryn was. And Jon Arryn was a shrewd man. He planned ahead - and he knew that in the end he would need someone to claim the throne after the Targaryens have been deposed. So he made Robert the public face of the Rebellion.

And why did Robert fight? For Lyanna.

....so you agree that Rickards southern ambitions actually helped Ned?

[TheCrannogDweller]

....so you agree that Rickards southern ambitions actually helped Ned?

No.

Let me put it as clearly as I possibly can: no Southron ambitions = no Robert's Rebellion.

[Penguin king]

Sure you can. The Kings of France, England and other medieval countries kept marrying foreigners generation after generation.

It's a different situation though. The English kings traced their line back to a French speaking Norseman, and the royal line of France goes back to the Germanic Franks. The Nobility of many European countries were ethnically seperate from the rest of the population.

That's not the Case in the North. The Northerners are proud of being decended from unconquered First men, They have their own gods and their own traditions and that's the way they like it. If starks keep marying southerners then over time these traditions will be ignored, and it's going to have an effect on the way the other Northern houses see them. Even In Ned's children you can see a southern influence. Bran dreams of nothing more than being a Knight, and Sansa prays to the new gods more than the old. In the short term it's no big deal, but over time it's going to add up

Ned built cat a small sept, maybe Robbs wife will encourage all her sons to be knighted, and then Robb's daughter inlaw convinces her husband to expand the sept, and hire a headman since performing his own executions is so undignified. and so it goes on...

[eggs]

No.

Let me put it as clearly as I possibly can: no Southron ambitions = no Robert's Rebellion.

....so you were saying that Jon Arryn wouldn't have called his banners if Robert wasn't fighting for Lyanna? Pretty sure Robert would've fought either way.

Not really seeing how the betrothal led to the war.

[TheCrannogDweller]

....so you were saying that Jon Arryn wouldn't have called his banners if Robert wasn't fighting for Lyanna? Pretty sure Robert would've fought either way.

Not really seeing how the betrothal led to the war.

I'm saying that if you take Lyanna out of the equation, Rhaegar kidnaps no one, Brandon doesn't go to King's Landing, Aerys doesn't burn Rickard alive and so forth.

ETA: I know it's kinda convoluted and I'm probably not communicating it clearly, but my point is that if Lord Rickard didn't marry his children off to southerners, there would've been no Rebellion. It's like the butterfly effect, if that makes any sense...

[eggs]

I'm saying that if you take Lyanna out of the equation, Rhaegar kidnaps no one, Brandon doesn't go to King's Landing, Aerys doesn't burn Rickard alive and so forth.

ETA: I know it's kinda convoluted and I'm probably not communicating it clearly, but my point is that if Lord Rickard didn't marry his children off to southerners, there would've been no Rebellion. It's like the butterfly effect, if that makes any sense...

Nani? I think Lyanna would have still ended up attending the tourney at Harrenhall where she (presumably) first attracted Rhaegars attention.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Nani? I think Lyanna would have still ended up attending the tourney at Harrenhall where she (presumably) first attracted Rhaegars attention.

And I think none of the Starks would've been there. But we are both guessing at this point. :D

[Alia of the knife]

Imagine a world where Stannis never gets to worrying about bastards, Jon Arryn lives on, Bran is never pushed out a window, and the war of the 5 kings never happens. With Ned still alive and the seven kingdoms at peace, what marriages are lined up for the Stark kids?

With Robb being eldest son and Heir, his match is probably the most important.

Margery Tyrell would be a good candidate, as her father is a powerful Lord, but Ned never seemed to share in the southron ambitions of his father. Mace and Ned arn't exactly friendlt either, so this union would require a lot of brokering

Asha Greyjoy would be another powerful match, and I'm sure Ned would be glad to strengthen the North's relationship with the rebellious Ironborn, But would balon ever consent to the marriage? Would Asha herself go along with it for that matter?

Arianne Martell is probably the last prospect for Robb among the great houses, and probably the least likely. The distance between Dorne and the North is great, and an alliance would be of limited use. Under Dorne's inheritance laws Arianne is heir to her father, and I doubt she'd be willing to leave sunspear for the Icy North.

Turning away from the Great houses and towards the families of the North

Wynafryd Manderly would make a good wife for Robb. The Manderlys are among the Starks Stongest bannermen, and until Wylis has a son, Wynafryd is second in line to White Harbour. White Harbour would make a strong seat for Robb's second son

Alys Karstark is another strong match. The Karstarks are also a pretty powerful house, and as distant cousins, I'm sure Ned and Rikard would love to strengthen the blood ties between their houses.

Dacy Mormont is my last pick. She's a little older than Robb, and the Mormont's aren't as prestigious as the Manderlys or Karstarks, but on the plus side she's heir to Bear Island, and she'd be sure to bear Robb plenty of healthy children.

Moving on, Sansa and Arya are close enough in age that their potential matches are more or less the same.

Joffrey Baratheon is probably still the most tempting match. Ned and Robert were happy to join their families, and Sansa was thrilled at the idea of being Queen. Even if Ned's not made hand, I think there's a good chance of this one taking place

Tommen Baratheon If a match isn't made between Sansa and Joffrey, I can see one being made between Tommen and Arya. I'm not sure Arya would be thrilled, but I don't see her being happy with any match to be honest

Theon Grayjoy I don't think Ned ever really liked Theon all that much, but a marriage between Stark and Greyjoy has a lot going for it. Theon is technically the heir to the Iron Islands by the laws of the 7 kingdoms, even if Ironborn custom might disagree

Loras Tyrell The tyrells are a good family to marry into, and one the Starks currently have no blood ties to. Loras's sexuality might come as a suprise to the unfortunate bride, but i'm sure he'd do his husbandly duties on occasion. Arya might even like the lack of attention from him.

Trystane Martell as i said before, the Starks and the Martells don't make natural allies, however Trystane has got more going for him as a match than Arianne. With Trystane and the Stark girls being a lot lower down their respective lines of succesion moving from one end of the kingdom to the other won't be a problem. I could see both Sansa and Arya enjoying a life in Dorne. Sansa always had a lot of the south in her, and Arya would love the respect women are due in Dornish culture. I can see her spending a lot of time with the Sand snakes

Probably enough matches for the girls Bran and Rickon are still pretty young, and a lot of their potential matches haven't even been born yet. Bran's Matches also overlap with Robb's to an extent.

Myrcella Baratheon is a last chance for the Starks to marry into royalty if the girls end up elsewhere. I'm sure Bran would love to live at court as brother in law to the king.

Ok, I've probably put way to much thought into this purely hypothetical question. I'm not usually a shipper either. Think i've been playing too much Crusader Kings 2 :P

Many of the above mentioned matches are all good speculative possibilities, but I've always thought for Arya, whether Cat liked it, or not, and whether Asharas lover was Brandon, or Ned, that Arya would likely have to go to House Dayne, i.e., Edric for reparations to the Honor of House Dayne.

Sansa would not be a Candidate as the older daughter, and would likely have ended up with either Willis or Loras anyway, though I think your spot-on about Arya on Loras, :cool4:

I've always also tended to see her destiny as Dorne anyway given the naming of her Direwolf. And Arya and Ned have already shared a sunset. :P

[Pod The Impaler]

Imagine a world where Stannis never gets to worrying about bastards, Jon Arryn lives on, Bran is never pushed out a window, and the war of the 5 kings never happens. With Ned still alive and the seven kingdoms at peace, what marriages are lined up for the Stark kids?

Hmm, given this situation, where Eddard Stark doesn't have to worry about Robert's offer, and so on, here's some guesses I have.

ROBB STARK: Robb is the heir to Winterfell, so he would be the one sought out by other families. I don't think Eddard would seek a southron marriage, but would probably not say no to a major house either.

Is Daenerys Targaryen available ? :drunk:

Let's say Eddard decides he wants a marriage to someone northern blood or at least of the blood of the First Men. Then this means Meera Reed, Dacey Mormont (or Lyanna Mormont, given a few years to mature), and Alys Karstark are prime northern candidates; Bethany Blackwood, Myranda Royce or even Jeyne Westerling among those of southron families that have the blood of the First Men.

If Robb were to be matched to a girl from a fully southron house Myrcella Baratheon is a strong possibility, but Margaery Tyrell might be considered the better match by Eddard. There's also the chance of Roslin Frey, but though the Freys are fairly powerful, she's not high up among them so it might be seen as a lower match that the heir of Winterfell deserves.

JON SNOW: Assuming Jon does not volunteer for the Night's Watch, this would be a tough call, given what he knows about Jon's parentage that others do not. I think Eddard would try to make a better match for Jon Snow than others would assume possible. All the same candidates as for Robb might apply, considering the issue of age, but it is more likely for the other families to reject the match. The families of the North are a bit less likely to reject it, especially if Eddard approaches one of their small mountain clans. As well, because of Jon's bastardy, Eddard might seek out Mya Stone as a match for Jon (since he knows Robert fathered her). It is even possible to have Eddard consider a match between Jon Snow and one of the Sand Snakes (Lady Nym or Tyene primarily). There is also the chance that one of the minor Tyrell cousins might be approached (Megga, for example). As well, Shireen Baratheon might be possible, if Eddard is not superstitious about the greyscale.

SANSA STARK: The idea of Sansa Stark marrying Joffrey "Baratheon" is a strong possibility, but let's say that there was no rush this time and Eddard got to know Joffrey well enough to see he was not the sort of man he'd want her married to. This opens up a number of possibilities. The Northern houses have plenty of eligible sons, and no doubt would make offers. Leaving those aside, I imagine Sansa would be thrilled at the prospect of a southron husband. So, Eddard can consider Willas (perhaps too old) or Loras Tyrell, or Quentyn Martell, or Edric Dayne. (For a Dayne, Eddard would really have to convince Catelyn though, and that means telling Cat about Jon's real mother.) Eddard may be suspicious of the Freys, but Olyvar Frey might be considered, as could Raynald Westerling. The last possibility is Theon Greyjoy. I do not think Eddard would prompt this match, but if Theon asked for her hand, it would be considered. On paper, Theon is the heir of a powerful house, which is desirable, but the other factors are big stumbling blocks. Eddard has no great love of the Greyjoys, and knowing Theon's personality as well as he does, might not think he could keep from hurting Sansa's feelings. Balon despises the Starks beyond all sense, and instead of seeing it as a home-run of a marriage for his son, he'd assert that the Starks are foes, the girl weak, and the whole thing displeasing to the Old Way. Last of all, the Iron Islands (where Eddard has been) are a fairly poor and bleak place, pretty much the opposite of what Sansa would hope for, so she'd be unhappy there.

ARYA STARK: It would be funny to see Eddard attempt to make a marriage for Arya at all. She could marry Theon Greyoy more easily than Sansa could, not that I think this would happen. Jojen Reed might be a candidate. Edric Dayne would be a good choice too. Perhaps a Westerling son or Frey. Tommen would be considered, as well. I do not think she could be married to Sweetrobin - Eddard would feel badly for Jon Arryn's legacy, but one look at Sweetrobin's mental problems and he'd know it was a bad idea. There's also Trystane Martell as an outside possibility. Arya would most likely end up betrothed to some northern lad, but as with a wildling woman, he'd have to steal her. Then again, let's say Eddard goes to the capital and meets a certain apprentice blacksmith, and brings him to Winterfell once his apprencticeship is done ...

BRAN STARK: I keep picturing a match with Wylla Manderly or Lyanna Mormont here.

RICKON STARK: Not really even worth considering at this stage. He's a barely past being a toddler, and if the war does not happen, this completely changes what noble daughters will even be born in that age range.

[Castellan]

Harrion Karstark for Arya. She could live up north, be more wild and have Alys for a sister in law.

Of course, if Sansa had married Joffrey then I suppose all her siblings instantly become more eligible and so Karstarks might be a bit too low.

[BericDondarrion]

Jon - Arya

[Alia of the knife]

Jon - Arya

Yes and nooooo.......!