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[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

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So I tried to read all (most) of the posts in this thread but I didn't see anyone say this: I'm pretty sure Cersei is going to have Joff appoint Loras to the Kingsguard since the QoT seems to have implied her acceptance of the marriage. This seems to make sense to me, at least. Thoughts?

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That's true but I still think they could do it without so much screen time. This scene didn't reveal anything the viewer didn't know already, except that the Boy is not a Karstark or an Umber. And let's face it- the vast majority of TV only viewers can barely distinguish the great houses from each other. Expecting them to pick up on a process of elimination reference to the lesser northern families is a stretch. As a result, the scene is just a repeat of what we've seen all season.

Agreed. And what's also troubling long term is that its going to force B&B to expedite Theon's storyline from Dance much earlier into the story. They can't possibly have another full season of torture porn, so its likely next year we see Theon as Reek.

Its such a poor use of screen time when other characters and storylines could have been better served.

I think it would have been much more dramatically interesting and powerful to have kept Theon offscreen for most of the season and then have Ramsey take Robb down to the Twin's dungeon in episode 9, prior to the Red Wedding, and announce he had captured Theon Greyjoy. Theon could have then given his Ned speech at that time. The who is the torturer mystery is just silly... even for non-book viewers... it doesn't justify 6-10 minute scenes every other episode.

Edited by pleonasm

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Nice to see Tormund har a bit

yes, finally a laugh. he's been too serious this whole time. hopefully a lot of "hars" are in store.

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So I tried to read all (most) of the posts in this thread but I didn't see anyone say this: I'm pretty sure Cersei is going to have Joff appoint Loras to the Kingsguard since the QoT seems to have implied her acceptance of the marriage. This seems to make sense to me, at least. Thoughts?

I thought her snapping the quill was an obvious sign that she didn't accept the marriage. Did I read that wrong?

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Once again, to the people complaining about the Theon/Ramsay scenes, of course you might find it boring. YOU ALREADY KNOW WHO THE BOY IS!! The tv audience doesn't know what happens to Theon. If they both just show up two seasons later, the audience won't care/buy the idea of "Just take our word for it, this Ramsay guy is a bad bad man."

Theon's transformation into Reek has to be shown on television for it to work. Books and TV are completely different in the way you set up a story.

From what I've seen, even non-readers are bored by the scenes. The Unsullied at the TWOP forums are certainly not interested in gratuitous torture, and the non-readers I interact with aren't interested either.

And I'm sorry, but the scenes are NOT necessary. Theon's transformation works in the books purely because we never see it. When we meet him, he's a shell of his former self, and we have to piece together how it was possible for him to transform so dramatically, and it makes us realise what a monster Ramsay is without us even needing to see any explicit torture.

Theon has had 16 and a half minutes of screentime this season that could have been used to give more scenes to any of the other stories.

Gendry will probably take up the role of Edric Storm in the books - leeched of his blood by Melisandre to use, but spirited away by men at the orders of Davos. Rather than being whisked off to the Free Cities, he could be returned to the BwB.

Why would he be returned to the BwB, after they sold him to Melisandre?

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That's true but I still think they could do it without so much screen time. This scene didn't reveal anything the viewer didn't know already, except that the Boy is not a Karstark or an Umber.

Ramsay flayed Theon's pinky in this episode. He sends it to Asha & Robb in the books...

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I thought her snapping the quill was an obvious sign that she didn't accept the marriage. Did I read that wrong?

Yes, you did. Tywin had the order to appoint Loras to the Kingsguard in hand and was preparing to sign it. She snapped the quill, meaning she didn't want him to appoint Loras to the KG

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I remembered another thing: Sansa's "Can I invite my family?"... Seriously? What are they smoking??? Yes, Sansa, you can invite rotten head of your Daddy, your missing sister and your older brother we're warring with!!! We all dance and eat a lot of meat.

Idioitic...

Edited by Alboin

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For some thoughts of my own.

1) Eliminating Ser Dontos from the show till now, and having LF act directly, and especially act right before he leaves for the Vale himself would definitely make everyone at KL suspicious wouldn't it? I mean imagine if Sansa had agreed to be whisked away with LF on his ship, it would be pretty obvious to Tywin (with the help of advice from Varys for sure) that LF is behind Sansa's disappearance. I think the show really messed up there. And also, now that LF has left to the Vale, who would be the person to arrange PW and Sansa'a escape? Introduction of a Kettleblack perhaps?

I was thinking it would be Dontos when LF was mentioning how he has a new follower. I'm still going by an interview with D&D where they said we haven't seen the last of Dontos on the show.

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Gendry will probably take up the role of Edric Storm in the books - leeched of his blood by Melisandre to use, but spirited away by men at the orders of Davos. Rather than being whisked off to the Free Cities, he could be returned to the BwB.

Yes Gendry taking on Edric's role from the book is the popular consensus which I also agree with. I mean after that particular story line is concluded, what will happen? Will he return to being Gendry, or will he remain Edric and be shipped to Essos? I am thinking that DnD's knowledge of yet unrevealed events may give us an idea what to expect from Gendry in the upcoming books, and possibly his level of importance in the story.

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It was a singular piece of moral nihilism. The worst part about it is that I can bet quite a lot of viewers agreed with him.

Episode should have ended there, tough. Cheesy kiss atop the Wall ruined everything forever.

I agree so much. You could feel that everything was heading towards a crescendo there. Only having the conversation between Varys and Littlefinger interspersed with bits of the Wildlings climbing the Wall would have been better.

Same here- foreshadowing her being a Faceless Man.

Hells no. She will shut those eyes forever means that she kills them! If she only imitates 3 people, I would consider her career a whopper of a failure and I would suggest she hide well, because the skills of a FM are too valuable for them to be wasted on just 3 hits.

Just a random book reader question this episode brought up: is Valar Morghulis a widely common phrase in the free cities? Or one specifically used by the Faceless Men? It was strange to hear Melisandre and Thoros saying it. But I could be incorrectly attributing it just to the Faceless Men. I know Dany hears it too, but I didn't think it was a common greeting..

Valar Morghulis translates to all men must die in High Valyrian.[1] It is a customary saying in Essos, and is traditionally answered with "Valar Dohaeris."[2]

What I get from that is not that Arya will kill these people, is that she will become these people i.e. foreshadowing her becoming a Faceless (Wo)Man

Again. No. She kills at least those 3 people.

I always enjoy the little chats between Varys and Littlefinger. Probably the intellectual highpoints of the show.

Agreed. As I said above, the talk between Varys and Littlefinger in this episode was the highpoint of the show, period. And it hints towards Littlefinger maybe even being in league with the Great Other. Wouldn't it be great if it turned out that the eunuch and the mockingbird were not just political enemies, but enemies on a global scale as well, If Varys works for the good of the Targaryens/fire, and Littlefinger works for the good of the Great Other/ice, well...That takes everything to a whole new level.

I thought the eyes thing was referencing Arya's ability to change faces.

I wonder how many times more I will have to say no to this.

Yes Gendry taking on Edric's role from the book is the popular consensus which I also agree with. I mean after that particular story line is concluded, what will happen? Will he return to being Gendry, or will he remain Edric and be shipped to Essos? I am thinking that DnD's knowledge of yet unrevealed events may give us an idea what to expect from Gendry in the upcoming books, and possibly his level of importance in the story.

What if Melisandre takes Gendry as a source of her "children"? Stannis has grown too weak, it was said, to give her another son. What if she intends to use Gendry as a younger father for the shadows, supplying her with more assassins than Stannis can? Yay crackpot!

Edited by Syphon the Sanitator

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Are you thinking of Edric Storm? Davos smuggled him away.

There is the whole thing of the three kings dying is what Melisandre promised. Once that had become so Davos knew that Edric was going to be sacrificed. Davos got him on a boat and faced the consequence. Of course he thought it would probably of meant his head. He however convinces Stannis that by fighting at the wall he can win the northmen to his cause. Stannis having lost most of his army is desperate for men to fight for him and decides it is his only option.

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Poor Ros

I was hoping she would stick around. And we didn't need to see that.

I hope they use it at least

Perhaps Olenna agreed to the marriage but will now find out through Varys and want Loras on the kings guard to protect Margery while PW plans are put in place ?

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It really changes the whole dynamic with the Tyrells having Loras as the sole heir. Most things on the show they seemed to have simplified and streamlined. Loras could be a very complicated single entity.

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This show needs more littlefinger, he and Jaime have been cast perfectly and both actors nail every scene they're in. I loved the scene between him and Varys. Melisandre meeting up with Thoros was also very interesting, as was her interest in Gendry. I wonder where they're heading with that, his path is COMPLETELY different in the books.

The one thing i'm disappointed in is the lack of dungeon Davos, i'd rather have that than Samwell singing to Gilly. Samwell sucks in the books and even more so in the show, too many other interesting characters and too few episodes to be focusing on such a bad character.

The wall scenes were pretty good up until they climbed the thing, i can't believe HBO can't afford better CG than that. Hard to take it seriously.

Some other side notes:

Arya's actress is becoming plump, which is a little distracting. Her character has also become irrelevant as of late, but her time will probably come when Clegane pops up again.

Bran's actor looks old, his nose is getting HUGE and it's ridiculous how they have him set up under a tree in every scene he's in. They really should've recast his character.

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So since Sam randomly broke out his buried treasure dragon glass dagger to show us and Gilly, we should be getting Sam the Slayer soon, right?

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So since Sam randomly broke out his buried treasure dragon glass dagger to show us and Gilly, we should be getting Sam the Slayer soon, right?

I totally took that scene as a reminder that he has the dragon-glass dagger and a foreshadow that he will indeed use it. I was only hoping it would be then and there, instead of the conversation over the fire and the singing.

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Some other side notes:

Arya's actress is becoming plump, which is a little distracting. Her character has also become irrelevant as of late, but her time will probably come when Clegane pops up again.

Bran's actor looks old, his nose is getting HUGE and it's ridiculous how they have him set up under a tree in every scene he's in. They really should've recast his character.

I absolutely hate re-casting of characters. I just don't buy the 'change the face, keep the character'. I'm glad they didn't even if they are growing fast. It doesn't matter much anyway, since the characters already are aged up. Sometimes children grow very fast over a short amount of time.

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The more I think about it the less I like this episode. I’m not happy with the premature marriage reveal by Tyrion. This sets up Sansa to long after Little Finger. She’s just transferring her trust from one person to the next without having the opportunity to be shocked into suspicion and recognizing that no one’s on her side. Altogether she’s way too smiley and calm this season, and this is not how I imagined her at this point in the books. Although the RW might me a rude awakening for Sansa, she will wish she had gone with LF all the more, whereas in the books she doesn’t know who will be waiting for her on the ship. Also, it looks like it’ll be one of the Tyrells that gives her the hairnet, which means Sansa is going to look stupid for framing herself at their behest. I just don’t like what they’re doing to the potential of one of my favorite characters!

…And I miss the hound already. I don’t think he’s going to be in the next episode either, which means that his journey with Arya will be truncated.

I give this episode a 5. The only part I liked was the scene between Tywin and the Queen of Thorns. Even here I didn’t get the broken quill. Does that mean that Olenna has agreed to Tywin’s terms (and thus the plans for the purple wedding are hatched)?

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