A closer look at Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot

[lareine]

In a way, Maester Aemon might be an aspect of Merlin - Uther's councillor who helped him get Ygraine and did have some influence on young Arthur but it was shortly lived as he disappeared - imprisoned by his love, the Lady of the Lake?

Maester Aemon claims that love is the death of duty which might correspond to Merlin's situation. He was an influence on Rhaegar and he was an influence on Jon, teaching him how to be a leader, like he once taught his own brother, the newly crowned Aegon V. Besides, he "disappeared" far away, at the Wall. In fact, he disappeared so fully that no one in Westeros actually remembers him.

:agree:

[lareine]

That's Right!

I had forgotten that, and definitely speaks to the themes of history repeating itself. There was also that mention early on of Arya picking flowers and taking them to Ned, indicating she likes flowers as well.

Good points, and had she gone to Court, and been "done up" in such fashions, she would be right up there herself. And of course there is also mention of Roberts take on her beauty, while he doesn't seem to be all that taken by Cersei.

Another point on similarities and Arya is what role she plays in current and future events. If as I sometimes am afraid to speculate, Arya takes an Arthurian, parallel role, it's not hard to guess what that role might be- Morganna. :uhoh:

At least in the less mystical sense of things, truly, purely by accident between Jon and Arya as I imagine ten years apart from one another by the time she would reach such an age, they would probably not recognize one another.

She left WF at nine, and by aDwD, she is twelve. By the middle of, or towards the end of tWoW, she will likely be around fourteen/fifteen.

I know that Morganna is often protrayed as an evil enchantress (especially in a lot of contemporary works) but there are a lot of different version of her character. In many of the earlier works (including Monmouths) she's simply a magical healer who's not even Arthur's sister. The other great thing about GRRM is that he's very good at weaving elements from history and myth into his characters in a way that is very subtle. Even when you can see obvious influences behind a character, there's always a twist to them or their fate that makes them completely unique. Arya might have some similar traits to Morganna, but I don't think her fate or her relationship with Jon will necessarily be the same as Morganna's and Arthur's.

It's funny that you mention the TV movie version of "Mists of Avalon," because I think that may have been where I got my idea that Morgaine reminded me of Lyanna/Arya. Julianna Margulies looked very-Stark like in that movie with her long dark hair and pale skin. Not to mention that her character was very indepndent and strong willed. Joan Allen was in it too as Morgause and her hair was long and wavy red which made her look like Michelle Fairley/Catelyn's doppelganger : )

[Alia of the knife]

I know that Morganna is often protrayed as an evil enchantress (especially in a lot of contemporary works) but there are a lot of different version of her character. In many of the earlier works (including Monmouths) she's simply a magical healer who's not even Arthur's sister. The other great thing about GRRM is that he's very good at weaving elements from history and myth into his characters in a way that is very subtle. Even when you can see obvious influences behind a character, there's always a twist to them or their fate that makes them completely unique. Arya might have some similar traits to Morganna, but I don't think her fate or her relationship with Jon will necessarily be the same as Morganna's and Arthur's.

It's funny that you mention the TV movie version of "Mists of Avalon," because I think that may have been where I got my idea that Morgaine reminded me of Lyanna/Arya. Julianna Margulies looked very-Stark like in that movie with her long dark hair and pale skin. Not to mention that her character was very indepndent and strong willed. Joan Allen was in it too as Morgause and her hair was long and wavy red which made her look like Michelle Fairley/Catelyn's doppelganger : )

I was not familiar with those interpretations.

And I think I'll have to go back to "The Mists of Avalon" as well. You are right about the actresses now that I think back on it, (wasn't Angelica Houston in too)?

Anyway, while many predict that Arya will be "bad," I don't think so. I think her journey is very much a parallel to Jons, as well as the vows she will likely break, (as in to the Faceless Men), as I don't see them with her best interests at heart.

I think she will remember that she is not "no one," but Eddard Starks daughter, taught by him at a young age at his table to always know the people who will follow you. And I think that Needle is her tether to that reality.

I think like Jon, there will be times that her character is grey bordering on dark, but I think in the end her fathers memory keeps her from going over the precipice.

The girl in her wants revenge, but the woman will want justice, so let the girl be killed and the woman be born.

[lareine]

I was not familiar with those interpretations.

And I think I'll have to go back to "The Mists of Avalon" as well. You are right about the actresses now that I think back on it, (wasn't Angelica Houston in too)?

Anyway, while many predict that Arya will be "bad," I don't think so. I think her journey is very much a parallel to Jons, as well as the vows she will likely break, (as in to the Faceless Men), as I don't see them with her best interests at heart.

I think she will remember that she is not "no one," but Eddard Starks daughter, taught by him at a young age at his table to always know the people who will follow you. And I think that Needle is her tether to that reality.

I think like Jon, there will be times that her character is grey bordering on dark, but I think in the end her fathers memory keeps her from going over the precipice.

The girl in her wants revenge, but the woman will want justice, so let the girl be killed and the woman be born.

"La Fay" is derived from the French word for fairy which has led some to believe her character may have originally evolved from French and Breton water goddesses. She first appears by name in Monmouth's book on the life of Merlin Vita Merlini (1150) where she's named as the chief of nine magical sisters who dwell on the Isle of Apples on Avalon, where Arthur is brought there after he is wounded at the Battle of Camlann. So from her earliest appearances, she's associated with the mystical island of Avalon, the older pagan beliefs and supernatural abilities, but none of its sinister. She appears in one of Chretein's works (approx. 1170) as well where she's presented as Arthur's sister for the first time who is also a great healer. It isn't until the 13th century French Vulgate Cycle (Lancelot-Grail Cycle) that her story expands and she starts appearing more treacherous. In the Vulgate Cycle, she's sent to a convent when King Uther kills her father and marries her mother where she starts to study magic with Merlin. This ends when Uther forces her to marry his ally Uriens against her wishes. Miserable in her marriage, she has a series of lovers until she is caught by Guinevere who expels her from court. It is after this disgrace that she begins to plot against Guinevere, Lancelot and her brother Arthur and her portrayal as a vindictive sorceress began to become entrenched.

You are right about Angelica Houston being in that movie too though! I think she was Vivianne, the head high priestess of Avalon. It's such a great story and they had such talented people in it that it's kind of a shame it turned out looking so low budget.

[Valandui]

Loved that book, and sort of liked the show.

But, that's also true, (I know what book I'm taking on vacation), about the banquets being the setting and origin of the conflicts, and cannot wait to see what Lady G does with the other characters and their parallels.

That's a good point as well.

I suppose a personal preference, (which I try not to do with an Authors work), I'd rather not see Jon and Arya end up like that, though it's possible given Martins historical understanding of feudal politics and family alliances, they would be very powerful cousins if Sansa is not available for such an alliance.

I definitely wouldn't want to see Arya and Jon together. That would be weird. I was more referring to "jon being Arthur to Dany's Morgan, although that could also imply a Dany/Jon hookup which I'm not sure I would be thrilled with.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Apologies if I'm going to go a bit off-topic here and also apologies if this has already been suggested by someone else, but in furtherance of the possible links to Arthurian legends in this book, I was wondering has anyone also noticed a potential analogy to the historical backdrop to the Arthurian legend also?

I know I've previously explored the possibility of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere being analogous to Lyanna, Rhaegar, Arthur and Elia, but while re-reading Game of Thrones, it also occurred to me that there might be further Arthurian parallels at play here.

I'll explain further - it has occurred to me that the legends of the Children of the Forest, the First Men and the Andals might be analogous to British history, particularly the ancient Britons (or insular Celts as they are also known), the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons as well as the circumstances surrounding King Arthur.

Firstly, the Children of the Forest are described as being small and dark (much like how the Roman historian, Tacitus, described the ancient Britons). They are also associated with weirwoods (perhaps similar to the Britons who, through Druid worship, had a religious affiliation with trees), and have a magical and almost ferocious quality (the same can definitely be said of the Britons, whose fear by the Romans actually caused them to delay the invasion of Britain).

Along come the First Men, who at first are in some conflict with the Children, but within time, they learn to peacefully co-exist, leading to a semi-fusion of cultures of sorts. Like this relationship, when the Romans first arrived in Britain, they encountered much resistance by the indigenous population, leading to several revolts led by Boudicca of the Iceni, Caratocos and Venetius of the Brigantes.

Eventually, the Romans managed to pacify the Britons, which led to a very successful, respectful and peaceful co-existence.

Like the Children and First Men cultural relationship, the Britons and Romans intermingled somewhat, developing Romano-British culture and they also intermarried within their hierarchies to such an extent that the ancient Welsh Princes (who were arguably from the stock of some of the oldest Celtic tribes in British history) would also claim descent from the founders of ancient Rome. One purported product of these fused cultures in legend was King Arthur himself, who might be analogous to Jon Snow in ASoIaF.

Next on the scene we have the tall fair-haired Andals, whose arrival caused them to drive the indigenous (presumably the Children and the First Men in this case) north and they displace their cultures everywhere except the most northerly areas.

It has been the views of historians and now DNA profilers (as stated in Steven Oppenheimer's excellent "Blood of the Isles") that the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons for instance caused the Romano-British to flee North and West - to Wales, Ireland, Scotland and North West England. It is also at this point that King Arthur - allegedly a Romano-British soldier - purportedly faced the marauding Anglo-Saxon forces which would eventually drive his people to the most North-Westerly regions of what is now the UK.

Okay, I know I am exploring the parallels of the ASoIaF legends with Arthurian and British history, as opposed to the characters of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere for example as I have previously done, but I wonder whether the legendary arcs could give further credence to the assertions that there are strong Arthurian parallels here.

I am not sure how the characters of Rhaegar (Arthur?), Dayne (Lancelot), Elia (Guinevere), and Lyanna (Morgan Le Fay) would fit here as the legendary backdrop of the Children, First Men and Andals occur long before they arrive on the scene, but we might be able to find some comparison with Arthur - the prophecised saviour of the Britons who draws a sword from stone and who is foreshadowed to rise again to answer his country's call for need - and Rhaegar or Jon Snow, with the latter foreshadowed to defend the realm against the Others using "Lightbringer" in a manner akin to King Arthur.

Alternatively, perhaps the legendary backdrop of the Children/ First Men and Andals can be paralleled with British history during the Arthurian legend, but with the characters of Arthur, Morgan Le Fay, Guinevere and Lancelot corresponding directly to the characters of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur, with no direct time correlation to the preceeding legends for instance.

Gosh, hope that this makes some sense and isn't too off-topic!

[Alia of the knife]

I definitely wouldn't want to see Arya and Jon together. That would be weird. I was more referring to "jon being Arthur to Dany's Morgan, although that could also imply a Dany/Jon hookup which I'm not sure I would be thrilled with.

I essentially agree with you on both, :stillsick: but within the context of this theory, Arya, nor Dany for that matter isn't far off the mark.

In the case of a Arya/Morgan connection, Morgan is also loosely connected the Irish goddess Morrigan, which on the Heretics thread they go into depth about. Morrigan is a phantom queen, sometimes having many identities and forms, so within this particular theme, it could be a possibility with her training amongst the Faceless Men.

Personally, I'd rather read her fate to be in Dorne, and since I think the naming of the Dirvewolves are also significant in reflecting the Stark children, that's not outside the realm of possibility either.

"La Fay" is derived from the French word for fairy which has led some to believe her character may have originally evolved from French and Breton water goddesses. She first appears by name in Monmouth's book on the life of Merlin Vita Merlini (1150) where she's named as the chief of nine magical sisters who dwell on the Isle of Apples on Avalon, where Arthur is brought there after he is wounded at the Battle of Camlann. So from her earliest appearances, she's associated with the mystical island of Avalon, the older pagan beliefs and supernatural abilities, but none of its sinister. She appears in one of Chretein's works (approx. 1170) as well where she's presented as Arthur's sister for the first time who is also a great healer. It isn't until the 13th century French Vulgate Cycle (Lancelot-Grail Cycle) that her story expands and she starts appearing more treacherous. In the Vulgate Cycle, she's sent to a convent when King Uther kills her father and marries her mother where she starts to study magic with Merlin. This ends when Uther forces her to marry his ally Uriens against her wishes. Miserable in her marriage, she has a series of lovers until she is caught by Guinevere who expels her from court. It is after this disgrace that she begins to plot against Guinevere, Lancelot and her brother Arthur and her portrayal as a vindictive sorceress began to become entrenched.

You are right about Angelica Houston being in that movie too though! I think she was Vivianne, the head high priestess of Avalon. It's such a great story and they had such talented people in it that it's kind of a shame it turned out looking so low budget.

That is too bad, so maybe it's time for a reboot. :)

And thank you for this awesome information. That's why I love these threads.

Apologies if I'm going to go a bit off-topic here and also apologies if this has already been suggested by someone else, but in furtherance of the possible links to Arthurian legends in this book, I was wondering has anyone also noticed a potential analogy to the historical backdrop to the Arthurian legend also?

I know I've previously explored the possibility of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere being analogous to Lyanna, Rhaegar, Arthur and Elia, but while re-reading Game of Thrones, it also occurred to me that there might be further Arthurian parallels at play here.

I'll explain further - it has occurred to me that the legends of the Children of the Forest, the First Men and the Andals might be analogous to British history, particularly the ancient Britons (or insular Celts as they are also known), the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons as well as the circumstances surrounding King Arthur.

Firstly, the Children of the Forest are described as being small and dark (much like how the Roman historian, Tacitus, described the ancient Britons). They are also associated with weirwoods (perhaps similar to the Britons who, through Druid worship, had a religious affiliation with trees), and have a magical and almost ferocious quality (the same can definitely be said of the Britons, whose fear by the Romans actually caused them to delay the invasion of Britain).

Along come the First Men, who at first are in some conflict with the Children, but within time, they learn to peacefully co-exist, leading to a semi-fusion of cultures of sorts. Like this relationship, when the Romans first arrived in Britain, they encountered much resistance by the indigenous population, leading to several revolts led by Boudicca of the Iceni, Caratocos and Venetius of the Brigantes.

Eventually, the Romans managed to pacify the Britons, which led to a very successful, respectful and peaceful co-existence.

Like the Children and First Men cultural relationship, the Britons and Romans intermingled somewhat, developing Romano-British culture and they also intermarried within their hierarchies to such an extent that the ancient Welsh Princes (who were arguably from the stock of some of the oldest Celtic tribes in British history) would also claim descent from the founders of ancient Rome. One purported product of these fused cultures in legend was King Arthur himself, who might be analogous to Jon Snow in ASoIaF.

Next on the scene we have the tall fair-haired Andals, whose arrival caused them to drive the indigenous (presumably the Children and the First Men in this case) north and they displace their cultures everywhere except the most northerly areas.

It has been the views of historians and now DNA profilers (as stated in Steven Oppenheimer's excellent "Blood of the Isles") that the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons for instance caused the Romano-British to flee North and West - to Wales, Ireland, Scotland and North West England. It is also at this point that King Arthur - allegedly a Romano-British soldier - purportedly faced the marauding Anglo-Saxon forces which would eventually drive his people to the most North-Westerly regions of what is now the UK.

Okay, I know I am exploring the parallels of the ASoIaF legends with Arthurian and British history, as opposed to the characters of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere for example as I have previously done, but I wonder whether the legendary arcs could give further credence to the assertions that there are strong Arthurian parallels here.

I am not sure how the characters of Rhaegar (Arthur?), Dayne (Lancelot), Elia (Guinevere), and Lyanna (Morgan Le Fay) would fit here as the legendary backdrop of the Children, First Men and Andals occur long before they arrive on the scene, but we might be able to find some comparison with Arthur - the prophecised saviour of the Britons who draws a sword from stone and who is foreshadowed to rise again to answer his country's call for need - and Rhaegar or Jon Snow, with the latter foreshadowed to defend the realm against the Others using "Lightbringer" in a manner akin to King Arthur.

Alternatively, perhaps the legendary backdrop of the Children/ First Men and Andals can be paralleled with British history during the Arthurian legend, but with the characters of Arthur, Morgan Le Fay, Guinevere and Lancelot corresponding directly to the characters of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur, with no direct time correlation to the preceeding legends for instance.

Gosh, hope that this makes some sense and isn't too off-topic!

Not off topic at all, and a great analysis.

I know I'm learning a lot just from reading all of this, so I hope it keeps going.

[Strong Flame]

Here is my Authurian connection:

Ser Ilyn Payne sat in his squalid chambers, sharpening his sword, as he did everynight, to keep it sharp so he might fufill the promise he had made a year ago, though it now seemed to be another lifetime. he knew that even if his tongue still was left to him, no one would believe the tale of that promise, made to him before the execution. Turly it was more than a promise, a game the man had called it. perhaps it was best he had no way to speak. Ser Jamie did not seem to care for his conversation anyhow. And he had found but one man he wished to talk to in the time since he lost his tongue, but that man was dead by his own hand. Dead men do not keep promises he reminded himself, but somehow he would not believe it was true til the night was over.

"A year and a day and I shall return," the lord had said to him as he was led to the steps in front of the sept of Baelor. "A year and a day and I shall return to visit upon you a blow equal to any you should deal me. My colours are white and grey, but this promise is the green game of the North, and it never fails to collect its tolls"

Outside it was the hour of the wolf, Ser Ilyn put down his sword and made ready for rest. A year and a day a the dead did in fact keep not their words. He chuckled to himself.

A gust of wind took him suddenly by surprise and he whipped around to the door. A man stood in the doorway, covered in snow with leaves and vines tangled in his hair and beard, plant growth over what once had been a modest surcoat. Beneath the green, was grey and white and the snarling head of a Dire wolf. On his shoulders rested no head at.

Payne opened his mouth. From it came a sound that might have been laughter.

fin.

OK so, i highly doubt that we will see a Ilyn Payne/Ned Stark taking on the roles of gawain and the Green Knight. But it was just too fun not to go there in an Authurian/ASOIAF thread.

IN all seriousness, these theories and observations are mazing and I am in debt to your fantastic work here. I read them all and enjoyed it thoroughly

Cheers! :cheers:

[lareine]

Apologies if I'm going to go a bit off-topic here and also apologies if this has already been suggested by someone else, but in furtherance of the possible links to Arthurian legends in this book, I was wondering has anyone also noticed a potential analogy to the historical backdrop to the Arthurian legend also?

I know I've previously explored the possibility of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere being analogous to Lyanna, Rhaegar, Arthur and Elia, but while re-reading Game of Thrones, it also occurred to me that there might be further Arthurian parallels at play here.

I'll explain further - it has occurred to me that the legends of the Children of the Forest, the First Men and the Andals might be analogous to British history, particularly the ancient Britons (or insular Celts as they are also known), the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons as well as the circumstances surrounding King Arthur.

Firstly, the Children of the Forest are described as being small and dark (much like how the Roman historian, Tacitus, described the ancient Britons). They are also associated with weirwoods (perhaps similar to the Britons who, through Druid worship, had a religious affiliation with trees), and have a magical and almost ferocious quality (the same can definitely be said of the Britons, whose fear by the Romans actually caused them to delay the invasion of Britain).

Along come the First Men, who at first are in some conflict with the Children, but within time, they learn to peacefully co-exist, leading to a semi-fusion of cultures of sorts. Like this relationship, when the Romans first arrived in Britain, they encountered much resistance by the indigenous population, leading to several revolts led by Boudicca of the Iceni, Caratocos and Venetius of the Brigantes.

Eventually, the Romans managed to pacify the Britons, which led to a very successful, respectful and peaceful co-existence.

Like the Children and First Men cultural relationship, the Britons and Romans intermingled somewhat, developing Romano-British culture and they also intermarried within their hierarchies to such an extent that the ancient Welsh Princes (who were arguably from the stock of some of the oldest Celtic tribes in British history) would also claim descent from the founders of ancient Rome. One purported product of these fused cultures in legend was King Arthur himself, who might be analogous to Jon Snow in ASoIaF.

Next on the scene we have the tall fair-haired Andals, whose arrival caused them to drive the indigenous (presumably the Children and the First Men in this case) north and they displace their cultures everywhere except the most northerly areas.

It has been the views of historians and now DNA profilers (as stated in Steven Oppenheimer's excellent "Blood of the Isles") that the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons for instance caused the Romano-British to flee North and West - to Wales, Ireland, Scotland and North West England. It is also at this point that King Arthur - allegedly a Romano-British soldier - purportedly faced the marauding Anglo-Saxon forces which would eventually drive his people to the most North-Westerly regions of what is now the UK.

Okay, I know I am exploring the parallels of the ASoIaF legends with Arthurian and British history, as opposed to the characters of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere for example as I have previously done, but I wonder whether the legendary arcs could give further credence to the assertions that there are strong Arthurian parallels here.

I am not sure how the characters of Rhaegar (Arthur?), Dayne (Lancelot), Elia (Guinevere), and Lyanna (Morgan Le Fay) would fit here as the legendary backdrop of the Children, First Men and Andals occur long before they arrive on the scene, but we might be able to find some comparison with Arthur - the prophecised saviour of the Britons who draws a sword from stone and who is foreshadowed to rise again to answer his country's call for need - and Rhaegar or Jon Snow, with the latter foreshadowed to defend the realm against the Others using "Lightbringer" in a manner akin to King Arthur.

Alternatively, perhaps the legendary backdrop of the Children/ First Men and Andals can be paralleled with British history during the Arthurian legend, but with the characters of Arthur, Morgan Le Fay, Guinevere and Lancelot corresponding directly to the characters of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur, with no direct time correlation to the preceeding legends for instance.

Gosh, hope that this makes some sense and isn't too off-topic!

This is not off topic and you did a lot of work here. Great parallel you caught between the First Men and the Romans, I would never have thought of that! It reminded me that it was the Romans who built Hadrian's Wall which GRRM has said was the inspiration for the Wall in ASOIAF. Inspired by this thread, I ended up watching a documentary on Arthurian legend this afternoon that was rather cheesy but actually did have an interesting point that relates to your post about how difficult it is to figure out the various timelines and character changes and that is this; Arthurian legend is and always has been a constantly evolving myth.

The earliest Arthurian legends rose up out of the depths of the Dark Ages, after the Roman Empire began to crumble and the Roman legions were forced to evacuate Britain. When they left, the law and order that they had maintained went with them and Britain became vulnerable to all of the outside enemies the Romans had kept at bay (the picts, the scots, the Irish, the Anglo Saxons, etc.) It was from this dark period that the earliest legends of Arthur came in the form of the British-Romano warrior-king, saving his land from the Anglo-Saxons with his legendary sword. This Arthur and his knights would not have had time for jousting, tournaments or chasing after holy relics; they were in a life a death struggle for their very survival. The remanents of pagan Celtic Britain are more prominent in these earlier versions too. It isn't until the early 13th century with the Vulagate Cycle that the Grail quest is introduced. Written in the high Middle Ages, these versions of the legend, the characters and their stories have evolved to reflect the concepts of Christian morality, chivalry and the romantic courtly tradition of the times. Arthurian legend continues to evolve even up to the present day with new movies, novels, and even comic books. I guess this is my long winded way of saying that each version of the story is unique to the time it was written in and you don't have to worry about trying to make them all fit together in a linear way. Hope that makes sense : )

[Strong Flame]

The waves of CotF, FM, Andals, Targs could represent the colonialization and immigration patterns seen around the world over history and I think it does, but II think the_one_who_was_promised's catch of the particular synch with the British isles is pretty dead on. It raises the question of land ownership and what it means to be "from" a place.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

In a way, Maester Aemon might be an aspect of Merlin - Uther's councillor who helped him get Ygraine and did have some influence on young Arthur but it was shortly lived as he disappeared - imprisoned by his love, the Lady of the Lake?

Maester Aemon claims that love is the death of duty which might correspond to Merlin's situation. He was an influence on Rhaegar and he was an influence on Jon, teaching him how to be a leader, like he once taught his own brother, the newly crowned Aegon V. Besides, he "disappeared" far away, at the Wall. In fact, he disappeared so fully that no one in Westeros actually remembers him.

Brilliant! He definitely has the wise councilor aspect and was an influence on both Rhaegar and Jon. I've spent a lot of time thinking about Merlin as the prime mover of a lot of the action and Darryk's point on the previous page about Bloodraven is a good match for that. Plus he's trapped in tree and all ;) Of course, as I've said here before (and Darryk echoed in his post) -- we all know GRRM doesn't do direct copies so taking a few aspects of a complex character like Merlin and using them in different characters is right in his wheelhouse.

[Anath]

Brilliant! He definitely has the wise councilor aspect and was an influence on both Rhaegar and Jon. I've spent a lot of time thinking about Merlin as the prime mover of a lot of the action and Darryk's point on the previous page about Bloodraven is a good match for that. Plus he's trapped in tree and all ;) Of course, as I've said here before (and Darryk echoed in his post) -- we all know GRRM doesn't do direct copies so taking a few aspects of a complex character like Merlin and using them in different characters is right in his wheelhouse.

Right. Merlin was revered, loved and feared - and Bloodraven and Maester Aemon do make two principal aspects of Merlin quite nicely. Besides, unlike his father and brother and like his grandfather (who, coincidentally, was a learned man and a wise ruler) Maester Aemon doesn't seem to hold any grudge against Bloodraven. If anything, he tacitly pays his respect to the sorcerer ("no less a man than Brynden Rivers", I think that was the quote from the Feast), so, in a way, these two representations of Merlin co-existed peacefully (at the Wall).

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Apologies if I'm going to go a bit off-topic here and also apologies if this has already been suggested by someone else, but in furtherance of the possible links to Arthurian legends in this book, I was wondering has anyone also noticed a potential analogy to the historical backdrop to the Arthurian legend also?

I know I've previously explored the possibility of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere being analogous to Lyanna, Rhaegar, Arthur and Elia, but while re-reading Game of Thrones, it also occurred to me that there might be further Arthurian parallels at play here.

I'll explain further - it has occurred to me that the legends of the Children of the Forest, the First Men and the Andals might be analogous to British history, particularly the ancient Britons (or insular Celts as they are also known), the Romans and the Anglo-Saxons as well as the circumstances surrounding King Arthur.

Firstly, the Children of the Forest are described as being small and dark (much like how the Roman historian, Tacitus, described the ancient Britons). They are also associated with weirwoods (perhaps similar to the Britons who, through Druid worship, had a religious affiliation with trees), and have a magical and almost ferocious quality (the same can definitely be said of the Britons, whose fear by the Romans actually caused them to delay the invasion of Britain).

Along come the First Men, who at first are in some conflict with the Children, but within time, they learn to peacefully co-exist, leading to a semi-fusion of cultures of sorts. Like this relationship, when the Romans first arrived in Britain, they encountered much resistance by the indigenous population, leading to several revolts led by Boudicca of the Iceni, Caratocos and Venetius of the Brigantes.

Eventually, the Romans managed to pacify the Britons, which led to a very successful, respectful and peaceful co-existence.

Like the Children and First Men cultural relationship, the Britons and Romans intermingled somewhat, developing Romano-British culture and they also intermarried within their hierarchies to such an extent that the ancient Welsh Princes (who were arguably from the stock of some of the oldest Celtic tribes in British history) would also claim descent from the founders of ancient Rome. One purported product of these fused cultures in legend was King Arthur himself, who might be analogous to Jon Snow in ASoIaF.

Next on the scene we have the tall fair-haired Andals, whose arrival caused them to drive the indigenous (presumably the Children and the First Men in this case) north and they displace their cultures everywhere except the most northerly areas.

It has been the views of historians and now DNA profilers (as stated in Steven Oppenheimer's excellent "Blood of the Isles") that the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons for instance caused the Romano-British to flee North and West - to Wales, Ireland, Scotland and North West England. It is also at this point that King Arthur - allegedly a Romano-British soldier - purportedly faced the marauding Anglo-Saxon forces which would eventually drive his people to the most North-Westerly regions of what is now the UK.

Okay, I know I am exploring the parallels of the ASoIaF legends with Arthurian and British history, as opposed to the characters of Morgan Le Fay, Arthur, Lancelot and Guinevere for example as I have previously done, but I wonder whether the legendary arcs could give further credence to the assertions that there are strong Arthurian parallels here.

I am not sure how the characters of Rhaegar (Arthur?), Dayne (Lancelot), Elia (Guinevere), and Lyanna (Morgan Le Fay) would fit here as the legendary backdrop of the Children, First Men and Andals occur long before they arrive on the scene, but we might be able to find some comparison with Arthur - the prophecised saviour of the Britons who draws a sword from stone and who is foreshadowed to rise again to answer his country's call for need - and Rhaegar or Jon Snow, with the latter foreshadowed to defend the realm against the Others using "Lightbringer" in a manner akin to King Arthur.

Alternatively, perhaps the legendary backdrop of the Children/ First Men and Andals can be paralleled with British history during the Arthurian legend, but with the characters of Arthur, Morgan Le Fay, Guinevere and Lancelot corresponding directly to the characters of Rhaegar, Lyanna and Arthur, with no direct time correlation to the preceeding legends for instance.

Gosh, hope that this makes some sense and isn't too off-topic!

This is really wonderful and fascinating analysis! I'm a huge fan of both fantasy literature and Arthurian legend, but my educational background is medieval England, so the waves of population that Britain endured from the Romans (First Men) through Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes (Andals and Rhoynar) and Normans (Targs) is something I've often noticed as similar to Westeros. Then too, if you spend much time reading Heresy (which I do just often enough to be in awe :)) you'll see the strong correlations between the CotF and the Others and magical aspects of the indigenous Britons is sort of a core idea there. In terms of tying in the legendary history, I think the best case could be made for the Last Hero (or Azor Ahai, if they are one and the same) being the legendary Arthur while TPtwP is the second coming of Arthur (whom many of us assume to be Jon Snow) I actually touched on this in my last post about Jon, with the comet parallels and the actual history of comets in Britain. Of course, GRRM spreads his references around so we end up finding them in disparate places. I'm sure as we learn more songs and legends of Westeros the similarities with legendary Britain and the way in which we could tie it in with actual history will become more apparent. Anyways, thank you for these great thoughts! :cheers:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Here is my Authurian connection:

Ser Ilyn Payne sat in his squalid chambers, sharpening his sword, as he did everynight, to keep it sharp so he might fufill the promise he had made a year ago, though it now seemed to be another lifetime. he knew that even if his tongue still was left to him, no one would believe the tale of that promise, made to him before the execution. Turly it was more than a promise, a game the man had called it. perhaps it was best he had no way to speak. Ser Jamie did not seem to care for his conversation anyhow. And he had found but one man he wished to talk to in the time since he lost his tongue, but that man was dead by his own hand. Dead men do not keep promises he reminded himself, but somehow he would not believe it was true til the night was over.

"A year and a day and I shall return," the lord had said to him as he was led to the steps in front of the sept of Baelor. "A year and a day and I shall return to visit upon you a blow equal to any you should deal me. My colours are white and grey, but this promise is the green game of the North, and it never fails to collect its tolls"

Outside it was the hour of the wolf, Ser Ilyn put down his sword and made ready for rest. A year and a day a the dead did in fact keep not their words. He chuckled to himself.

A gust of wind took him suddenly by surprise and he whipped around to the door. A man stood in the doorway, covered in snow with leaves and vines tangled in his hair and beard, plant growth over what once had been a modest surcoat. Beneath the green, was grey and white and the snarling head of a Dire wolf. On his shoulders rested no head at.

Payne opened his mouth. From it came a sound that might have been laughter.

fin.

OK so, i highly doubt that we will see a Ilyn Payne/Ned Stark taking on the roles of gawain and the Green Knight. But it was just too fun not to go there in an Authurian/ASOIAF thread.

IN all seriousness, these theories and observations are mazing and I am in debt to your fantastic work here. I read them all and enjoyed it thoroughly

Cheers! :cheers:

Absolutely fantastic! :lol: Thanks for the kind words and :cheers: to you as well!

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Thank you Lady Gwynhyvar, Strong Flame, lareine and Alia for your comments :) Being a Celtic history nut, this immediately jumped out at me while I was re-reading Game of Thrones. No idea why it escaped my attention the first time round, but it is very interesting to read all your comments with regard to these potential parallels - I had no idea that the Wall was inspired by Hadrian's Wall for instance.

The earliest Arthurian legends rose up out of the depths of the Dark Ages, after the Roman Empire began to crumble and the Roman legions were forced to evacuate Britain. When they left, the law and order that they had maintained went with them and Britain became vulnerable to all of the outside enemies the Romans had kept at bay (the picts, the scots, the Irish, the Anglo Saxons, etc.) It was from this dark period that the earliest legends of Arthur came in the form of the British-Romano warrior-king, saving his land from the Anglo-Saxons with his legendary sword. This Arthur and his knights would not have had time for jousting, tournaments or chasing after holy relics; they were in a life a death struggle for their very survival. The remanents of pagan Celtic Britain are more prominent in these earlier versions too. It isn't until the early 13th century with the Vulagate Cycle that the Grail quest is introduced. Written in the high Middle Ages, these versions of the legend, the characters and their stories have evolved to reflect the concepts of Christian morality, chivalry and the romantic courtly tradition of the times. Arthurian legend continues to evolve even up to the present day with new movies, novels, and even comic books. I guess this is my long winded way of saying that each version of the story is unique to the time it was written in and you don't have to worry about trying to make them all fit together in a linear way. Hope that makes sense : )

Yes it definitely makes sense and I agree with everything that you say here :)

This is really wonderful and fascinating analysis! I'm a huge fan of both fantasy literature and Arthurian legend, but my educational background is medieval England, so the waves of population that Britain endured from the Romans (First Men) through Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes (Andals and Rhoynar) and Normans (Targs) is something I've often noticed as similar to Westeros. Then too, if you spend much time reading Heresy (which I do just often enough to be in awe :)) you'll see the strong correlations between the CotF and the Others and magical aspects of the indigenous Britons is sort of a core idea there. In terms of tying in the legendary history, I think the best case could be made for the Last Hero (or Azor Ahai, if they are one and the same) being the legendary Arthur while TPtwP is the second coming of Arthur (whom many of us assume to be Jon Snow) I actually touched on this in my last post about Jon, with the comet parallels and the actual history of comets in Britain.

Now we're on the subject of the second coming of Arthur. Henry VII apparently tried to pass himself off as the second coming of Arthur due to his Welsh ancestry when he came to the throne. Another poster (King of the Starks, I think) on the R+L=J thread (v. 58 or 59) pointed out that Henry VII used a dragon as well as a wolf as a sigil (although I accept, Henry VII wasn't a very likely Arthur, but we might just be able to draw parallels from Henry's use of the sigil to demonstrate that Jon embodies the second coming in the guise of both a Stark and Targ descendant, thus representing a "balance" of powers).

The Normans possibly representing the Targs is an interesting concept. Funnily enough, I had not thought of who they might be representative of while I was writing the post, but when we look at both sets of peoples, there are various parallels - they are both known for their splendid strategic architectural achievements, their ability to unite the whole country under one rule (The Targs using dragons and their Norman counterparts using sheer force), and their mastery (whether we're Norman fans or not) at ruling - they introduced a complex set of laws based on Christianity and established feudal rule. Although they also remind me of the Macedonians under Alexander the Great as well as the ancient Egyptians, in terms of British history, I do agree that there are strong parallels with the Normans.

Incidentally, the Normans also share some characteristics with their indigenous hosts - for instance, the Normans were descended from the tribes of Celtic Gaul in times gone by, as much as they were descended from Parisian Vikings and I think Apple Martini has made a case that the Targs might have at one point, taken a Stark for wife, but whether or not that can be verified, I'm not sure, and I'm also uncertain whether a child would have resulted from that match. But even so, that could also hint at some connection between the Targs and the Normans.

With their association with the Old Gods, the old ways and being revered as the descendants of the First Men, for me, there is a striking similarity between the Starks and the early medieval British - such as the Irish, Scots, the Welsh and the North-Western English. We know that they are descended from the First Men, but I wonder whether there may also be any hints whether they are also descended from the Children of the Forest. In line with the Arthurian and Roman and Celtic analogies which we have discussed, it might be plausible.

[Alia of the knife]

Tarygaryen parallels to the Normans I think sometimes gets lost because of the emphasis on their marriage practices. And this could be another one of Martins combining cultures the same way he combined the Spanish and Welsh for the Dornish, but for the Targaryens, Norman/Egyptian.

Though in the story of Ragnar and Lagertha, he goes to great lengths to get the sons he is prophesized to have when Lagertha can't give them to him.

His brother Rollo is ironically is the first Duke of Normandy, from whom William the Conqueror claimed descent I believe.

But, when you think of the invasion, like Aegons conquest, the Norman Conquest was one of the largest in known history, with the transportation of their huge war horses, as well as other soldiers from Flanders and Brittany, (i.e., parallel to the other Valryian families that came with Aegon), the sight of them bringing one of the first cavalry systems into battle had likely the same impact as the dragons from Westeros.

And their size also had an impact on Anglo-Saxon psyche, who were in some cases still using chariots, rather than going into full battle on horseback.

Mix that with the combined French/Viking origins of the Normans- French culture and the Vikings technical pragmatism.

[yolkboy]

This is incredibly interesting, in-depth, and very well presented thread. Thanks to Lady Gwyn and others who have contributed. I don't know enough on the subject to add anything, but I found some of the parallels and catches that have been uncovered pretty fascinating. The looks at the prophesies was most intriguing. :cheers:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is incredibly interesting, in-depth, and very well presented thread. Thanks to Lady Gwyn and others who have contributed. I don't know enough on the subject to add anything, but I found some of the parallels and catches that have been uncovered pretty fascinating. The looks at the prophesies was most intriguing. :cheers:

Thanks yolkboy! :)

I said it to you in PM, but just to be on record because I love your Mel theory -- I don't think comets and humans are mutually exclusive in the bleeding star interpretation. In fact, it could explain the plural usage of stars in one instance. It could also be an example of prophecy having multiple possible interpretations, just as there are multiple applications of Arthurian themes to characters in ASoIaF.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

But, when you think of the invasion, like Aegons conquest, the Norman Conquest was one of the largest in known history, with the transportation of their huge war horses, as well as other soldiers from Flanders and Brittany, (i.e., parallel to the other Valryian families that came with Aegon), the sight of them bringing one of the first cavalry systems into battle had likely the same impact as the dragons from Westeros.

I agree. IMO it is just another example of GRRM's sheer creativity in transforming a conventional view of a historical group of peoples such as the Normans to a magical entity, more in keeping with the themes of ASoIaF. The Targeryans seem to have had that flair and mastery for ruling that the Normans had.

Incidentally, the Plantagenets - the first and last original Norman-based noble house to rule in Britain - and the Targeryans share a similar sort-of tragedy, when you consider that both houses - however unpopular they were both now and then - successfully united a whole country under one banner, established a new complex legal system, feudal rules etc and were credited with great architectural and strategic feats of success which was quite unprecedented before either came along in their respective worlds. However in the end, both houses were eventually destroyed by infighting amongst their kin, war, paranoia and corruption.

Richard III of Bosworth was the last Plantagenet King standing when he was defeated at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485, and his nieces were effectively traded in marriage thereafter. I think that in a similar way, Danaerys Targeryan might be slightly analogous to Anne Plantagenet and her sister Elizabeth of York who became the last remnants of their houses.

Of course, Jon Snow being the second coming of Arthur, and being of Targeryan, Stark (First Men and possibly CotF?) descent, then going on to unite the houses of old under one banner - as Henry VII believed himself to have had - could also fit within this historical analogy.

[Harlaw's Book]

I think Bran is a Green Knight figure with Jaime and Theon both in the Sir Gawain role.

Bran is a greenseer. The Green Knight is considered otherworldly and a religious figure, which is what Bran appears to be becoming. Bloodraven’s cave is reminiscent of the Green Chapel. Like the Green Knight, Bran survives the injuries inflicted on him by the Gawain figures –being thrown off the tower by Jaime and escaping Theon. The Green Knight’s purpose is to test Gawain, and I think Bran has already tested them due to the aforementioned injuries, but I think as Bran becomes more powerful, he will test them further, which seems to be already happening with Theon. Some versions also have the Green Knight working for Morgan, and another reason the Green Knight was sent to Camelot was to scare Guinevere. Currently Bran is working for Bloodraven. And his seeing Jaime and Cersei together scares Cersei.

There are some other ways Theon and Jaime are like Gawain. Both of them are very polarizing characters in-universe with some hating them and others loving them. Gawain’s character varies from tale to tale ranging from the worst knight to the greatest knight of the Round Table.

Theon represents the stories that portray Gawain as womanizer. And Asha’s flirting with Theon is similar to Bertilak’s wife flirting with Gawain. Hunting is an important part of the Green Knight story as hunting is with Theon’s.

Sometimes Gawain is called the Maiden’s Knight. Jaime jokingly claims such a title when he rescues Brienne. And there are a few other times Jaime associates knighthood with saving maids or protecting woman in general –him thinking he was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, sending Brienne to search for Sansa and asking to protect Rhaella from Aerys.

Jaime and Bran also invert the Gawain and the Green Knight Tale. Gawain is King Arthur’s nephew and agrees to the Green Knight’s challenge to protect Arthur. Jaime throwing Bran off the tower protects his nephews who become kings.

The Green Knight gives Gawain a scratch on the neck from his axe to remind Gawain of his unworthy behavior, and the experience makes Gawain into a better knight. Jaime loses the hand that threw Bran off the tower, and the experience results in him becoming a better knight.