A closer look at Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot

[Alia of the knife]

I agree. IMO it is just another example of GRRM's sheer creativity in transforming a conventional view of a historical group of peoples such as the Normans to a magical entity, more in keeping with the themes of ASoIaF. The Targeryans seem to have had that flair and mastery for ruling that the Normans had.

Incidentally, the Plantagenets - the first and last original Norman-based noble house to rule in Britain - and the Targeryans share a similar sort-of tragedy, when you consider that both houses - however unpopular they were both now and then - successfully united a whole country under one banner, established a new complex legal system, feudal rules etc and were credited with great architectural and strategic feats of success which was quite unprecedented before either came along in their respective worlds. However in the end, both houses were eventually destroyed by infighting amongst their kin, war, paranoia and corruption.

Richard III of Bosworth was the last Plantagenet King standing when he was defeated at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485, and his nieces were effectively traded in marriage thereafter. I think that in a similar way, Danaerys Targeryan might be slightly analogous to Anne Plantagenet and her sister Elizabeth of York who became the last remnants of their houses.

Of course, Jon Snow being the second coming of Arthur, and being of Targeryan, Stark (First Men and possibly CotF?) descent, then going on to unite the houses of old under one banner - as Henry VII believed himself to have had - could also fit within this historical analogy.

That is a really good analysis of Dany.

And I did not know that the York/Lancasters were the last of the Normans, though it would make sense if the Tudors really were the first ones to actually speak English at Court, the language of the people, if the last Norman dynasty was still speaking French in their Court.

I think Bran is a Green Knight figure with Jaime and Theon both in the Sir Gawain role.

Bran is a greenseer. The Green Knight is considered otherworldly and a religious figure, which is what Bran appears to be becoming. Bloodraven’s cave is reminiscent of the Green Chapel. Like the Green Knight, Bran survives the injuries inflicted on him by the Gawain figures –being thrown off the tower by Jaime and escaping Theon. The Green Knight’s purpose is to test Gawain, and I think Bran has already tested them due to the aforementioned injuries, but I think as Bran becomes more powerful, he will test them further, which seems to be already happening with Theon. Some versions also have the Green Knight working for Morgan, and another reason the Green Knight was sent to Camelot was to scare Guinevere. Currently Bran is working for Bloodraven. And his seeing Jaime and Cersei together scares Cersei.

There are some other ways Theon and Jaime are like Gawain. Both of them are very polarizing characters in-universe with some hating them and others loving them. Gawain’s character varies from tale to tale ranging from the worst knight to the greatest knight of the Round Table.

Theon represents the stories that portray Gawain as womanizer. And Asha’s flirting with Theon is similar to Bertilak’s wife flirting with Gawain. Hunting is an important part of the Green Knight story as hunting is with Theon’s.

Sometimes Gawain is called the Maiden’s Knight. Jaime jokingly claims such a title when he rescues Brienne. And there are a few other times Jaime associates knighthood with saving maids or protecting woman in general –him thinking he was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, sending Brienne to search for Sansa and asking to protect Rhaella from Aerys.

Jaime and Bran also invert the Gawain and the Green Knight Tale. Gawain is King Arthur’s nephew and agrees to the Green Knight’s challenge to protect Arthur. Jaime throwing Bran off the tower protects his nephews who become kings.

The Green Knight gives Gawain a scratch on the neck from his axe to remind Gawain of his unworthy behavior, and the experience makes Gawain into a better knight. Jaime loses the hand that threw Bran off the tower, and the experience results in him becoming a better knight.

Great catch!

[the_one_who_was_promised]

That is a really good analysis of Dany.

And I did not know that the York/Lancasters were the last of the Normans, though it would make sense if the Tudors really were the first ones to actually speak English at Court, the language of the people, if the last Norman dynasty was still speaking French in their Court.

Well I think the Houses that came after them were Tudor (Welsh/ French), the Stuarts (Scottish/ French), the Hanovers (German/ English), and the Saxe Coburg Gothas (English/ German). All houses probably shared ancestral lines with each other to such an extent that all the nobility had at least some French, Welsh, English, Norman and Scottish descent up until the present day.

I think the first Normans to occupy the throne in Britain were the Plantagenets and their rule ended on the field in Bosworth in 1485, although ancestrally speaking, they'd probably survive even up until the present day within the maternal lines. Several great houses in Britain would go on to claim descent from them such as the Howards, the Staffords and the De La Poles, although Henry VIII diminished the Staffords and the De La Poles during his reign by executing many of their members because he feared that they posed a threat to his own dynasty. The Howards - and several other great Houses in Britain - were more or less social climbers of probable mixed British descent who had been able to marry one of their sons to a daughter of House Plantagenet, so that they would then use that marriage to try to gain more power for themselves.

You bring an interesting point about French speaking at court, you know, I'm not sure which monarch would have introduced English speaking at court. Henry VII would certainly have been a French speaker due to his upbringing and the influence of his mother, Margaret Beaufort, and I'm guessing - although I could be wrong - that he might maintain that for a while to keep a sort of consistency amongst his Lords, although he did have a tendency to raise the stations of individuals from menial backgrounds to Lords. They wouldn't have had a grasp of the French language unless they'd been to University so I'm not sure. I think it's plausible that the majority of those at court during Henry VIII's reign were English speaking, because when he first met Anne Boleyn for instance, most people there seemed to have marvelled at her grasp of the French language. Catherine of Aragon and a few other regal ladies such as Margaret and Mary Tudor might have been the only ones noted for their grasp of foreign languages before this so although I'm not sure, yes I do think that French speaking might have been gradually eased out after Richard III.

Of course, as tragic as the rise and fall of the Plantagenets had been, and as miserly as Henry VII was, he can at least be credited with uniting Britain under one rule and uniting the feuding Houses of Lancaster and York. Being of Welsh descent, as well as of some minor Lancastrian (Norman) elements, this might be viewed as having the balance necessary to maintain order and control. In this aspect, I am beginning to see Jon Snow as more and more of an Arthur/ Henry VII hybrid who ultimately unites all Westerosi houses under one rule.

[Alia of the knife]

Well I think the Houses that came after them were Tudor (Welsh/ French), the Stuarts (Scottish/ French), the Hanovers (German/ English), and the Saxe Coburg Gothas (English/ German). All houses probably shared ancestral lines with each other to such an extent that all the nobility had at least some French, Welsh, English, Norman and Scottish descent up until the present day.

I think the first Normans to occupy the throne in Britain were the Plantagenets and their rule ended on the field in Bosworth in 1485, although ancestrally speaking, they'd probably survive even up until the present day within the maternal lines. Several great houses in Britain would go on to claim descent from them such as the Howards, the Staffords and the De La Poles, although Henry VIII diminished the Staffords and the De La Poles during his reign by executing many of their members because he feared that they posed a threat to his own dynasty. The Howards - and several other great Houses in Britain - were more or less social climbers of probable mixed British descent who had been able to marry one of their sons to a daughter of House Plantagenet, so that they would then use that marriage to try to gain more power for themselves.

You bring an interesting point about French speaking at court, you know, I'm not sure which monarch would have introduced English speaking at court. Henry VII would certainly have been a French speaker due to his upbringing and the influence of his mother, Margaret Beaufort, and I'm guessing - although I could be wrong - that he might maintain that for a while to keep a sort of consistency amongst his Lords, although he did have a tendency to raise the stations of individuals from menial backgrounds to Lords. They wouldn't have had a grasp of the French language unless they'd been to University so I'm not sure. I think it's plausible that the majority of those at court during Henry VIII's reign were English speaking, because when he first met Anne Boleyn for instance, most people there seemed to have marvelled at her grasp of the French language. Catherine of Aragon and a few other regal ladies such as Margaret and Mary Tudor might have been the only ones noted for their grasp of foreign languages before this so although I'm not sure, yes I do think that French speaking might have been gradually eased out after Richard III.

Of course, as tragic as the rise and fall of the Plantagenets had been, and as miserly as Henry VII was, he can at least be credited with uniting Britain under one rule and uniting the feuding Houses of Lancaster and York. Being of Welsh descent, as well as of some minor Lancastrian (Norman) elements, this might be viewed as having the balance necessary to maintain order and control. In this aspect, I am beginning to see Jon Snow as more and more of an Arthur/ Henry VII hybrid who ultimately unites all Westerosi houses under one rule.

"I think the first Normans to occupy the throne in Britain were the Plantagenets and their rule ended on the field in Bosworth in 1485, although ancestrally speaking, they'd probably survive even up until the present day within the maternal lines."

That is another great parallel to the Blackfyres interestingly enough.

And I had mixed feelings about Henry VII until I actually saw "The White Queen." I had read "The Sunne in Splendour" by Sharon Kay Penman, when I was a teen, and had great sympathy for Richard III, though now my feelings are mixed as I think certainly Henry VII wouldn't suffer them to live either.

But, in really visualizing those events, Edward would have made a better, modern CEO of a Corp. rather than a king. His hedonism became too much of a distraction whereas "miserly" Henry seemed to really focus on the kingdom, and genuinely loved his Queen.

It's an irony that Henry VIII would perhaps more in common with his Grandfather than his father, but then I suppose those are the dangers of second sons as heirs when not groomed to absolute duty, which Margaret did make sure of Henry.

Anyway, always love your insights. :bowdown:

[the_one_who_was_promised]

And I had mixed feelings about Henry VII until I actually saw "The White Queen." I had read "The Sunne in Splendour" by Sharon Kay Penman, when I was a teen, and had great sympathy for Richard III, though now my feelings are mixed as I think certainly Henry VII wouldn't suffer them to live either.

I might be slightly deviating here but while we're on the subject of Richard III, I'm not sure whether you might have seen this programme if you are posting from North America for example, but here in the UK, there was a programme called "The King in the car park" not so long ago. The remains of Richard III were recently found in a car park (of all places!) and they were able to use the remains to form a facial reconstruction - http://www.bbc.co.uk...rshire-21328380

Interestingly enough, his face appears much more feminine than conventional portraits which fits with some comments made about him at the time, and the insinuation is that portraits were commissioned to make him look as menacing as possible for Tudor propoganda purposes.They verified his identity using a descendant from Richard's maternal line from Canada, who seems to share a slight resemblance. I found it interesting that they didn't use a member of the "Royal family" for identification purposes. Hmm...

There are also some new interesting theories as to the fate of the Princes in the Tower - I read some theories that they could have been disposed of by Margaret Beaufort. Another source which appears to be very credible (I'm sorry I don't have the link to hand) says there is evidence that at least one of the two died from natural causes.

Sorry to derail this thread a bit, I just find the potential historical parallels fascinating and thought that you might be interested seeing as you mentioned Richard III :)

Anyway, yes thanks to you also for enhancing and sharing in this discussion (I think I might have to start a thread specific to this subject so as to stop derailing Lady Gwynhyfar's topic lol)!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I might be slightly deviating here but while we're on the subject of Richard III, I'm not sure whether you might have seen this programme if you are posting from North America for example, but here in the UK, there was a programme called "The King in the car park" not so long ago. The remains of Richard III were recently found in a car park (of all places!) and they were able to use the remains to form a facial reconstruction - http://www.bbc.co.uk...rshire-21328380

Interestingly enough, his face appears much more feminine than conventional portraits which fits with some comments made about him at the time, and the insinuation is that portraits were commissioned to make him look as menacing as possible for Tudor propoganda purposes.They verified his identity using a descendant from Richard's maternal line from Canada, who seems to share a slight resemblance. I found it interesting that they didn't use a member of the "Royal family" for identification purposes. Hmm...

There are also some new interesting theories as to the fate of the Princes in the Tower - I read some theories that they could have been disposed of by Margaret Beaufort. Another source which appears to be very credible (I'm sorry I don't have the link to hand) says there is evidence that at least one of the two died from natural causes.

Sorry to derail this thread a bit, I just find the potential historical parallels fascinating and thought that you might be interested seeing as you mentioned Richard III :)

Anyway, yes thanks to you also for enhancing and sharing in this discussion (I think I might have to start a thread specific to this subject so as to stop derailing Lady Gwynhyfar's topic lol)!

I'm very forgiving of meanderings... :)

I'm also very interested in English medieval history as that was my main focus in college-- I followed along with the discovery of Richard III's remains in the car park, though I didn't get to see any programming on it here. The reason they used the Canadian woman, as I understand it, is that mitochondrial DNA-- which is inherited through the mother-- is a more accurate way of determining relationship. The current royal family is descended in the male line from the House of York, that is to say-- the point when their York/Plantagenet ancestry diverged from Richard was with his brother Edward IV. The children of Edward IV (namely Elizabeth of York, your current monarch's ancestor) would possess their own mother's (Elizabeth Woodvilles's) mtDNA. The woman in Canada is, I believe, a descendant of one of Edward and Richard's sisters and shared the same mtDNA as Richard III and his siblings. Interestingly, the mother of all of those Yorkists was Cecily Neville, who was the granddaughter of John of Gaunt, the Duke of Lancaster whose progeny started the WotR. So the mtDNA they were looking for to identify England's last Yorkist king was actually Lancastrian :P

If you start a thread of your own, I will read it with great interest. In the meantime-- don't worry about sidebars here... It keeps this one on the front pages of the forum, and that's a good thing!

[Lummel]

...I think the first Normans to occupy the throne in Britain were the Plantagenets and their rule ended on the field in Bosworth in 1485, although ancestrally speaking, they'd probably survive even up until the present day within the maternal lines...

You bring an interesting point about French speaking at court, you know, I'm not sure which monarch would have introduced English speaking at court...

Of course, as tragic as the rise and fall of the Plantagenets had been, and as miserly as Henry VII was, he can at least be credited with uniting Britain under one rule and uniting the feuding Houses of Lancaster and York. Being of Welsh descent, as well as of some minor Lancastrian (Norman) elements, this might be viewed as having the balance necessary to maintain order and control. In this aspect, I am beginning to see Jon Snow as more and more of an Arthur/ Henry VII hybrid who ultimately unites all Westerosi houses under one rule.

The first Normans and last Normans on the English throne were William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy and his sons. The Plantagenets were Angevins - the Ducal dynasty of Anjou.

English speaking at Court was strong associated with the children of Edward III, which was the period in which Chaucer was writing in Middle English. But most monarchs down to the Stuarts would have been bi or tri-lingual at least in French, Latin as well as English. Edward I was the first King of England after the Norman conquest to have an English name - William, Henry, Richard and John are names that come into English from French. Not sure if it was John or Henry III who was the first King after the conquest to associate themselves with an English saint.

Henry VII didn't get to unite Britain, that only happened when James VI of Scotland through a bit of inheritance luck inherited the thrones of England and Ireland when Elizabeth I died.

We did have a thread about the discovery of Richard III's body in General Chatter when it was a little more in the news

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The first Normans and last Normans on the English throne were William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy and his sons. The Plantagenets were Angevins - the Ducal dynasty of Anjou.

English speaking at Court was strong associated with the children of Edward III, which was the period in which Chaucer was writing in Middle English. But most monarchs down to the Stuarts would have been bi or tri-lingual at least in French, Latin as well as English. Edward I was the first King of England after the Norman conquest to have an English name - William, Henry, Richard and John are names that come into English from French. Not sure if it was John or Henry III who was the first King after the conquest to associate themselves with an English saint.

Henry VII didn't get to unite Britain, that only happened when James VI of Scotland through a bit of inheritance luck inherited the thrones of England and Ireland when Elizabeth I died.

We did have a thread about the discovery of Richard III's body in General Chatter when it was a little more in the news

Cheers Lummel this /\ and BBC online are where I was following the developments in "the case of the King in the car park" :)

I think we're dealing with a difference in usage with some posters using the term "Norman" as a category for all the English kings of Norman descent, which includes the Angevins, versus the more precise "House" definition, which could be limited in the male line to William the Bastard through his grandson Stephen. Of course, the Angevins were still Norman through the female line (Empress Mathilda) and held the duchy of Normandy concurrently with the kingdom of England until John lost it to the French and his son Henry III abjured it with the Treaty of Paris.

And while Henry VII didn't unite Britain, he did unite the principal warring houses of England, which I agree is subtly different.

I wonder what you make of the parallel of Jon Snow to Henry VII though? Interesting that you bring up Scotland, because in the Westerosi model I'd see Scotland as "Beyond the Wall" which of course was beyond Henry's ability to unite, though he did marry his daughter to their king which led to the eventual unification of the kingdoms.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

The first Normans and last Normans on the English throne were William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy and his sons. The Plantagenets were Angevins - the Ducal dynasty of Anjou.

English speaking at Court was strong associated with the children of Edward III, which was the period in which Chaucer was writing in Middle English. But most monarchs down to the Stuarts would have been bi or tri-lingual at least in French, Latin as well as English. Edward I was the first King of England after the Norman conquest to have an English name - William, Henry, Richard and John are names that come into English from French. Not sure if it was John or Henry III who was the first King after the conquest to associate themselves with an English saint.

Henry VII didn't get to unite Britain, that only happened when James VI of Scotland through a bit of inheritance luck inherited the thrones of England and Ireland when Elizabeth I died.

We did have a thread about the discovery of Richard III's body in General Chatter when it was a little more in the news

Thank you for that. I'm admittedly not as learned on the topic of the Plantagenets and the Normans in general because my passion lies principally with the Britons, the Romans and intermittently, the Tudors (Henry VIII - Elizabeth I) - so thank you for the clarification. I wasn't sure when they started speaking French and when they stopped to be honest.

No, of course you are right about Henry VII. He consolidated his hold over England and Wales which was formalised by Act of Union in 1536 (was it?) and ended the Wars of the Roses. I was trying to draw some parallels between Jon Snow and Henry VII within the context of history so in the midsts of getting ahead of myself, I might've got a bit carried away. My apologies :)

I think we're dealing with a difference in usage with some posters using the term "Norman" as a category for all the English kings of Norman descent, which includes the Angevins, versus the more precise "House" definition, which could be limited in the male line to William the Bastard through his grandson Stephen. Of course, the Angevins were still Norman through the female line (Empress Mathilda) and held the duchy of Normandy concurrently with the kingdom of England until John lost it to the French and his son Henry III abjured it with the Treaty of Paris.

This exactly. The Plantagenets are not my principal field of interest but I concur, when I'm trying to draw analogies with history and the themes of ASoIaF, I apply the more generic terms applied to the peoples such as Britons, Romans and Normans etc. The Targeryans can be analogous to the Normans as a whole with the Plantagenets perhaps symbolising the throes of House Targeryan as well as their eventual demise.

I wonder what you make of the parallel of Jon Snow to Henry VII though? Interesting that you bring up Scotland, because in the Westerosi model I'd see Scotland as "Beyond the Wall" which of course was beyond Henry's ability to unite, though he did marry his daughter to their king which led to the eventual unification of the kingdoms.

Ever since Lareine mentioned GRRM 's alleged comment that the Wall was inspired by Hadrian's Wall, I've thought more about this. According to several biographies, King Henry VIII only ever travelled North in 1540 following his marriage to Catherine Howard. He had planned to go around four years earlier but was put off after the Pilgrimage of Grace. His visit in 1540 was apparently seen as some sort of consolatory visit to the people and it is surmised that even as late as the sixteenth century, the North was seen as sinister, wild and superstitious, primarily because in the main, many still adhered to Catholicism. So, I wonder whether this fear or suspicion that was generated in history is translated in fiction by GRRM to depict the North in ASoIaF. Remember, the Wildlings are quite superstitious (Osha for one).

The "Beyond the Wall" theme is quite interesting. During the times of the Romans, it is thought that they really feared the fearsome Picts and as we know, they never managed to consolidate their hold in Scotland anywhere near as well as they did in Wales and England.

Speaking of Henry VII and Jon Snow, another thought has just crossed my mind. Henry, as can be gauged from his portraits, was dark, grey-eyed (according to many commentators of the day) with a long thin oval face. Doesn't that description also fit Jon Snow? Hmm...

[Darryk]

This thread is amazing.

[Alia of the knife]

Lummel, and The_one_who_is_promised, My cursor has just gone haywire, so I can't multi-quote, or enter down, so forgive the run-on paragraph. I just wanted to say thanks to both of you for the great information, and I intend to check out both links. In my teens when I first discovered the War of the Roses story, and saw the portrait of Richard, of course the girl in me thought he was more appealing than his brother Edward :wub: but, that wasn't the reason I questioned his guilt. And not that I think Richard is guiltless, but the woman in me figured there was probably more to the disappearance of the Princes. I do recall the day they found Richards remains, thinking how the truth will always come out no matter how long it takes, and look forward to unraveling the mystery. As always, thanks to Lady Gwynhyfvar for providing an environment of open discussion -even when we meander. :bowdown:

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I concur. Kudos to Lady Gwynhyfar and for forgiving the odd meandering..

For non-meandering purposes, I have created a new thread specifically on the parallels between ASoIaF and British history that we have been discussing, here http://asoiaf.wester...ritish-history/

So, I will revert to discussing Arthur, LG, and Lancelot from hereon in :)

[Alia of the knife]

I concur. Kudos to Lady Gwynhyfar and for forgiving the odd meandering..

For non-meandering purposes, I have created a new thread specifically on the parallels between ASoIaF and British history that we have been discussing, here http://asoiaf.wester...ritish-history/

So, I will revert to discussing Arthur, LG, and Lancelot from hereon in :)

Wonderful, on my way to the thread...

[thewingedwolf]

Arthur Dayne: Sir Lancelot

Very very interesting thread and well written. Overall an excellent job. However I would disagree with you on Sir Arthur Dayne being Lancelot and I would rather equate him to King Arthur (at least in so far as the version of KIng Arthur that is present in Grail mythology). I wrote a thread a while back on Templar and Masonic refrences (in which Grail mythology is unavoidable) and I offered the following evidence to back up my claim:

1. The obvious name reference (Arthur)

2. The fac Dawn, unlike other great swords is not passed along through lineage but rather is bestowed to a member of House Dayne based on merit (much like Arthur was the only one capable fo removing excalibur from the stone).

3. In Arthurian / Grail mythology Excalibur was know to "blind its ennemies with light", Dawn is said to be "pale as milk glass and alive with light"

Lastly and this is where this becomes a little bit esoteric, I believe like many people do that the holy grail was not an object but in fact the womb of Mary Magdalene that which carried the lineage of Jesus Christ. I believe that this applies to Lyanna Stark as well, making Arthur Dayne, much like King Arthur in Grail mythology, the guardian of the Grail.

This is the concise verion of the theory, if you want the long version, you can find it here:

Masonic and templar references in ASOIAF

Again great job and I look forward to debating this with you!

[lareine]

Finally got home from work and saw you've been discussing my favorite subject; Medieval England, the Plantagenets and the Tudors :)

I think it's amazing that you majored in Medieval English history Lady Gwenhyfar, could you be any cooler?! I thought seriously about going to graduate school for it and it's one of my greatest passions.

It's so funny that you guys mentioned "The King In The Carpark." I'm a member of the Richard III Society (the American branch of the group that sponsored the Richard III dig) and I've been thinking a lot about that documentary lately whenever I've come across very intense and heated discussions on these threads. Though I must say, debates over whether Rhaegar or Robert was hotter, which one of them would have treated Lyanna better and whether she was kidnapped or went willingly PALE in comparison to the vitriol that the Riccardians spew when debating Richard's role in the "disappearance" of his nephews; lot's of screaming about "Tudor propaganda!" :P

"The King In The Carpark"was on YouTube for awhile, has it been pulled down? I know the Smithsonian channel has the rights to the story in the US, but the British version was so much better; it's so quikry, especially the Richard III Society members in all of their eccentric glory. I don't want to get the thread further off topic so I'm glad to see that the_one_who_was_promised started a separate thread for other parallels and I'm looking forward to reading that one tomorrow when I'm more rested. I'd also love to talk more about Henry VII/ Arthurian /ASOIAF parallels on this thread too. Thanks again to Lady Gwenhyfar for being so accommodating and letting us get off topic. I have to say, this has been my favorite thread recently. Everyone has been so open and receptive, there's been no bickering and people have contributed really smart and interesting insights that have really made me think. I wish all of the threads could be as great as this one :thumbsup:

[Alia of the knife]

Finally got home from work and saw you've been discussing my favorite subject; Medieval England, the Plantagenets and the Tudors :)

I think it's amazing that you majored in Medieval English history Lady Gwenhyfar, could you be any cooler?! I thought seriously about going to graduate school for it and it's one of my greatest passions.

It's so funny that you guys mentioned "The King In The Carpark." I'm a member of the Richard III Society (the American branch of the group that sponsored the Richard III dig) and I've been thinking a lot about that documentary lately whenever I've come across very intense and heated discussions on these threads. Though I must say, debates over whether Rhaegar or Robert was hotter, which one of them would have treated Lyanna better and whether she was kidnapped or went willingly PALE in comparison to the vitriol that the Riccardians spew when debating Richard's role in the "disappearance" of his nephews; lot's of screaming about "Tudor propaganda!" :P

"The King In The Carpark"was on YouTube for awhile, has it been pulled down? I know the Smithsonian channel has the rights to the story in the US, but the British version was so much better; it's so quikry, especially the Richard III Society members in all of their eccentric glory. I don't want to get the thread further off topic so I'm glad to see that the_one_who_was_promised started a separate thread for other parallels and I'm looking forward to reading that one tomorrow when I'm more rested. I'd also love to talk more about Henry VII/ Arthurian /ASOIAF parallels on this thread too. Thanks again to Lady Gwenhyfar for being so accommodating and letting us get off topic. I have to say, this has been my favorite thread recently. Everyone has been so open and receptive, there's been no bickering and people have contributed really smart and interesting insights that have really made me think. I wish all of the threads could be as great as this one :thumbsup:

Well, I will say this on the Tudors, they were consummate politicians in terms of even modern considerations in embracing and accommodating the popular culture of the time.

I could see the slogan now:

"Richard III. Hunchback. Incest. Kinslayer. Bad for his family, and bad for the realm. Let Henry give you an alternative to bad leadership and bad blood." :smug:

Okay, back to topic, there was a theory about a year ago regarding Lyanna and Oswell Whent possibly being in love with her.

We have the Elia and Arthur,so how would Oswell loving Lyanna, (and not to suggest she loved him in return), fit in with the legends?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lummel, and The_one_who_is_promised, My cursor has just gone haywire, so I can't multi-quote, or enter down, so forgive the run-on paragraph. I just wanted to say thanks to both of you for the great information, and I intend to check out both links. In my teens when I first discovered the War of the Roses story, and saw the portrait of Richard, of course the girl in me thought he was more appealing than his brother Edward :wub: but, that wasn't the reason I questioned his guilt. And not that I think Richard is guiltless, but the woman in me figured there was probably more to the disappearance of the Princes. I do recall the day they found Richards remains, thinking how the truth will always come out no matter how long it takes, and look forward to unraveling the mystery. As always, thanks to Lady Gwynhyfvar for providing an environment of open discussion -even when we meander. :bowdown:

I'm just happy to have such a wonderful group of posters contributing :grouphug:

Alia- I've been having the same problem with my keyboard-- solved by a hint from a poster on Ser Creighton's Corn Code thread. Put your browser in compatibility mode. What a relief! I thought both of my keyboards were seriously messed up :P

Very very interesting thread and well written. Overall an excellent job. However I would disagree with you on Sir Arthur Dayne being Lancelot and I would rather equate him to King Arthur (at least in so far as the version of KIng Arthur that is present in Grail mythology). I wrote a thread a while back on Templar and Masonic refrences (in which Grail mythology is unavoidable) and I offered the following evidence to back up my claim:

1. The obvious name reference (Arthur)

2. The fac Dawn, unlike other great swords is not passed along through lineage but rather is bestowed to a member of House Dayne based on merit (much like Arthur was the only one capable fo removing excalibur from the stone).

3. In Arthurian / Grail mythology Excalibur was know to "blind its ennemies with light", Dawn is said to be "pale as milk glass and alive with light"

Lastly and this is where this becomes a little bit esoteric, I believe like many people do that the holy grail was not an object but in fact the womb of Mary Magdalene that which carried the lineage of Jesus Christ. I believe that this applies to Lyanna Stark as well, making Arthur Dayne, much like King Arthur in Grail mythology, the guardian of the Grail.

This is the concise verion of the theory, if you want the long version, you can find it here:

Masonic and templar references in ASOIAF

Again great job and I look forward to debating this with you!

Thank you so much! Would you be surprised to know that I posted in your thread several months ago? I think I may have even linked this thread (being a fan of shameless plugs ;)) Anyways- I was very impressed with your Lyanna-Grail parallel, which I had just posted about here, and also a bit in awe of the synchronicity of the forum hive brain which seems to lead to the same themes popping up independently more than one might expect.

Your Arthur-Arthur parallel is very perceptive (if somewhat confusing to write about due to the names :P) and I agree with what you've said. One thing I have tried to stress here is that the relationships are non-linear and one character can draw on the themes of several Arthurian characters (vis a vis Lyanna-Ygraine/Gwenhyfvar/Elaine or Rhaegar-Uther/Arthur/Lancelot) and vice versa.

I have a funny picture in my head of Lyanna as an actor talking to her director:

"You want me to channel how many characters? Look, I'm an actor not Sybil! Honestly I am not getting paid enough for this job!" /storms off/

*snip

Thanks lareine! I appreciate all your contributions :)

Love that Riccardian:RLJer parallel

Well, I will say this on the Tudors, they were consummate politicians in terms of even modern considerations in embracing and accommodating the popular culture of the time.

I could see the slogan now:

"Richard III. Hunchback. Incest. Kinslayer. Bad for his family, and bad for the realm. Let Henry give you an alternative to bad leadership and bad blood." :smug:

Okay, back to topic, there was a theory about a year ago regarding Lyanna and Oswell Whent possibly being in love with her.

We have the Elia and Arthur,so how would Oswell loving Lyanna, (and not to suggest she loved him in return), fit in with the legends?

Wait-- when you put it like that Richard sounds a lot like another kingslayer we know!

I'd put Oswell in the unrequited love category, no? That would be Elaine of Astolat (Lady of Shalott) and Lancelot or Merlin and Nimue. As I recall, Merlin's love for the much younger Nimue was his downfall. In some versions she stole his powers and trapped him in a tree. Of course, I also have another candidate for the wizard in the tree which I am working on right now...

:cheers: everyone!

[Ygrain]

Lummel, and The_one_who_is_promised, My cursor has just gone haywire, so I can't multi-quote, or enter down, so forgive the run-on paragraph. I just wanted to say thanks to both of you for the great information, and I intend to check out both links. In my teens when I first discovered the War of the Roses story, and saw the portrait of Richard, of course the girl in me thought he was more appealing than his brother Edward :wub: but, that wasn't the reason I questioned his guilt. And not that I think Richard is guiltless, but the woman in me figured there was probably more to the disappearance of the Princes. I do recall the day they found Richards remains, thinking how the truth will always come out no matter how long it takes, and look forward to unraveling the mystery. As always, thanks to Lady Gwynhyfvar for providing an environment of open discussion -even when we meander. :bowdown:

Have you read "A Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey?

I also find Richard's portrait very appealing, and I wonder if GRRM might be taking a subtle stance in this, ascribing some of Richard's characteristics to his favourite character Tyrion, and others to Ned.

ETA: Eh, I should perhaps take it to the other thread, right?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Thanks again to Lady Gwenhyfar for being so accommodating and letting us get off topic. I have to say, this has been my favorite thread recently. Everyone has been so open and receptive, there's been no bickering and people have contributed really smart and interesting insights that have really made me think. I wish all of the threads could be as great as this one :thumbsup:

I concur - definitely one of the most friendly group of posters around with the most constructive discussions. Kudos to you all! :grouphug:

Have you read "A Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey?

I also find Richard's portrait very appealing, and I wonder if GRRM might be taking a subtle stance in this, ascribing some of Richard's characteristics to his favourite character Tyrion, and others to Ned.

ETA: Eh, I should perhaps take it to the other thread, right?

I've thought about a potential Richard III parallel too, like you, the character that most springs to mind is Tyrion - especially seeing as he is being set up for the murder of one of his nephews and has arranged a marriage for his niece (plus Cersei, apart from being the Isabella "she wolf" has something of Elizabeth Woodville about her, don't you think?), or perhaps it might be a fusion of one or more characters such as - Aerys and Tyrion. Hmm..

Now, back to topic.

Very very interesting thread and well written. Overall an excellent job. However I would disagree with you on Sir Arthur Dayne being Lancelot and I would rather equate him to King Arthur (at least in so far as the version of KIng Arthur that is present in Grail mythology). I wrote a thread a while back on Templar and Masonic refrences (in which Grail mythology is unavoidable) and I offered the following evidence to back up my claim:

1. The obvious name reference (Arthur)

2. The fac Dawn, unlike other great swords is not passed along through lineage but rather is bestowed to a member of House Dayne based on merit (much like Arthur was the only one capable fo removing excalibur from the stone).

3. In Arthurian / Grail mythology Excalibur was know to "blind its ennemies with light", Dawn is said to be "pale as milk glass and alive with light"

Lastly and this is where this becomes a little bit esoteric, I believe like many people do that the holy grail was not an object but in fact the womb of Mary Magdalene that which carried the lineage of Jesus Christ. I believe that this applies to Lyanna Stark as well, making Arthur Dayne, much like King Arthur in Grail mythology, the guardian of the Grail.

This is the concise verion of the theory, if you want the long version, you can find it here:

Masonic and templar references in ASOIAF

Again great job and I look forward to debating this with you!

This is a really great find. For me, Rhaegar presented the most obvious parallels to Arthur due to his status, his affiliation with two women who might be analogous to Morgan Le Fay and Guinevere and the honourable Knight who seemed to be lurking in his shadow, much as Lancelot might have been wrt to the legendary Arthur (I was also persuaded of this parallel because it is my personal opinion that something might have been going down with Elia and Arthur - although I concur there is no evidence for that as of yet in the text - so from a personal perspective, I immediately ascribed to the Rhaegar = Arthur theory).

However, I might add that there might be fundamental problems with associating Rhaegar with Arthur as you have touched upon in your post. For instance in the Westerosi equivalent of the legend, there is reason to suppose that Rhaegar might not have been the Prince that was Promised, the Last Hero or AAR. Maester Aemon claims that he and Rhaegar once believed that Rhaegar was the PtwP, then thought it was Aegon etc. so this alone could give rise to some doubt as to whether symbolically, Rhaegar is representative of the second coming of Arthur.

The idea that Arthur Dayne might be representative of Arthur is extremely interesting - there is much that we still do not know about this Knight, and it is probable that we will learn more about him as the series progresses (at least I hope we do in any event). The potential links with Dawn and Excalibur which you have pointed out do make me question whether this is Lightbringer - with the description of the sword being "pale as milk glass and alive with light" being possibly analogous to the "light that brings the dawn".

[Alia of the knife]

I'm just happy to have such a wonderful group of posters contributing :grouphug:

Alia- I've been having the same problem with my keyboard-- solved by a hint from a poster on Ser Creighton's Corn Code thread. Put your browser in compatibility mode. What a relief! I thought both of my keyboards were seriously messed up :P

Thank you so much! Would you be surprised to know that I posted in your thread several months ago? I think I may have even linked this thread (being a fan of shameless plugs ;)) Anyways- I was very impressed with your Lyanna-Grail parallel, which I had just posted about here, and also a bit in awe of the synchronicity of the forum hive brain which seems to lead to the same themes popping up independently more than one might expect.

Your Arthur-Arthur parallel is very perceptive (if somewhat confusing to write about due to the names :P) and I agree with what you've said. One thing I have tried to stress here is that the relationships are non-linear and one character can draw on the themes of several Arthurian characters (vis a vis Lyanna-Ygraine/Gwenhyfvar/Elaine or Rhaegar-Uther/Arthur/Lancelot) and vice versa.

I have a funny picture in my head of Lyanna as an actor talking to her director:

"You want me to channel how many characters? Look, I'm an actor not Sybil! Honestly I am not getting paid enough for this job!" /storms off/

Thanks lareine! I appreciate all your contributions :)

Love that Riccardian:RLJer parallel

Wait-- when you put it like that Richard sounds a lot like another kingslayer we know!

I'd put Oswell in the unrequited love category, no? That would be Elaine of Astolat (Lady of Shalott) and Lancelot or Merlin and Nimue. As I recall, Merlin's love for the much younger Nimue was his downfall. In some versions she stole his powers and trapped him in a tree. Of course, I also have another candidate for the wizard in the tree which I am working on right now...

:cheers: everyone!

Thanks Lady G., and I did just that. It definitely fixed it, and agreed on Whent. But, I do wonder if there was a darker aspect to Whent? There is something about him I think.....

Have you read "A Daughter of Time" by Josephine Tey?

I also find Richard's portrait very appealing, and I wonder if GRRM might be taking a subtle stance in this, ascribing some of Richard's characteristics to his favourite character Tyrion, and others to Ned.

ETA: Eh, I should perhaps take it to the other thread, right?

I did, :drool: in fact I have it as an audio book for my commute. There is another book called "A Rose for the Crown," about the mistress of Richard, (a woman called Kate), their love, and their children.

While he was fond of his cousin Anne, I think it was hinted that his real love was this mysterious woman, but, she was a commoner.

On the book, I will have to drag it out again tomorrow. I found him much more appealing than his bloated brother.

And, I have to check out the thread Lummel spoke of.

[lareine]

Well, I will say this on the Tudors, they were consummate politicians in terms of even modern considerations in embracing and accommodating the popular culture of the time.

I could see the slogan now:

"Richard III. Hunchback. Incest. Kinslayer. Bad for his family, and bad for the realm. Let Henry give you an alternative to bad leadership and bad blood." :smug:

Very true Alia! The Tudors were masters of what we would call today "spin" both negative and positive. When I finally make my way to the other thread, I'd love to talk to you about all the allegedly nasty ways the Tudors portrayed Richard III in art and popular culture, but to stay on the topic of this thread, one of Henry VII primary tools for his own self promotion was the Arthurian legend. Since Henry's claim to the throne via his lineage was tenuous at best, he was constantly going to great lengths to bolster his image. He had the Royal Historians claim he was actually descended from King Arthur through his Welsh father and then insisted that his first child be born in Winchester, which some legends believed was the actual site of Camelot. When the child turned out to be a son and heir, he named him Arthur to honor his 'ancestor' and to herald the beginning of a new golden age.

This is a really great find. For me, Rhaegar presented the most obvious parallels to Arthur due to his status, his affiliation with two women who might be analogous to Morgan Le Fay and Guinevere and the honourable Knight who seemed to be lurking in his shadow, much as Lancelot might have been wrt to the legendary Arthur (I was also persuaded of this parallel because it is my personal opinion that something might have been going down with Elia and Arthur - although I concur there is no evidence for that as of yet in the text - so from a personal perspective, I immediately ascribed to the Rhaegar = Arthur theory).

However, I might add that there might be fundamental problems with associating Rhaegar with Arthur as you have touched upon in your post. For instance in the Westerosi equivalent of the legend, there is reason to suppose that Rhaegar might not have been the Prince that was Promised, the Last Hero or AAR. Maester Aemon claims that he and Rhaegar once believed that Rhaegar was the PtwP, then thought it was Aegon etc. so this alone could give rise to some doubt as to whether symbolically, Rhaegar is representative of the second coming of Arthur.

The idea that Arthur Dayne might be representative of Arthur is extremely interesting - there is much that we still do not know about this Knight, and it is probable that we will learn more about him as the series progresses (at least I hope we do in any event). The potential links with Dawn and Excalibur which you have pointed out do make me question whether this is Lightbringer - with the description of the sword being "pale as milk glass and alive with light" being possibly analogous to the "light that brings the dawn".

Amazing find thewingedwolf! Very interesting perspective from you and the_PtwP. I can see Arthur Dayne having elements of both King Arthur and Lancelot in him. He's a very interesting fusion.