Stannis' recruitment plans

[KingHodorTargaryen]

He could turn the bank in Dany's direction, but think about it:

1. Massey provides invaluable intel about the North. He has seen what is going on at the Wall. I know Marwyn is going to Dany, but Massey can give her first-hand knowledge.

2. He could put more swords and ships in her hand using the IB's coin. More is always better than less. At the same time, it denies resources to an enemy.

3. He can facilitate the survival of House Baratheon. Dany likely won't be in a forgiving mood when she lands in Westeros. Retribution against houses Lannister and Baratheon are at the top of the list. It will be his way of making it up to Stannis.

4. He can rally the Crownlands on Dany's behalf. From AFFC, we know that the Crownlands are still very much pro-Targaryen.

1. Great point.

2. Yeah, but her army really doesn't need it. I guess it might give the Iron Bank a plan C if Dany promises to payback the loans of Robert, Cersei, and Stannis.

3. That's assuming Stannis is still alive or not the Night's King. It might make her in a forgiving mood to pardon the new lord of Storm's End, Edric.

4. Aegon will already have them. Still, I'm sure a few dragons can rally some people.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. Great point.

2. Yeah, but her army really doesn't need it. I guess it might give the Iron Bank a plan C if Dany promises to payback the loans of Robert, Cersei, and Stannis.

3. That's assuming Stannis is still alive or not the Night's King. It might make her in a forgiving mood to pardon the new lord of Storm's End, Edric.

4. Aegon will already have them. Still, I'm sure a few dragons can rally some people.

2. We are assuming the ironmen will ultimately follow her in some alliance. We are assuming the Dothraki will break tradition and follow her to Westeros. The Dothraki, I am not so sure about. How will the people of Westeros react to ruler who brings a huge army of foreign savages to their shores. Where will she settle them? Dorne is the most likely scenario, but Doran or Arianne will not agree to this without their complete loyalty to Sunspear. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding Dany's army. Also keep in mind the disease ravaging Slaver's Bay.

3. The fate of Shireen and House Baratheon is independent of Stannis' fate. If he lives, it will be up to Jon/Dany/Aegon and if he dies, it will still be up to the Targaryens. I'm still not seeing how Robert's bastard is going to magically end up legitimized and ruling the Stormlands. Who in their right mind will approve this? Not the Targs.

4. The dance of the dragons part 2 will decide this. I think Dany's dragons will make the difference.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

2. We are assuming the ironmen will ultimately follow her in some alliance. We are assuming the Dothraki will break tradition and follow her to Westeros. The Dothraki, I am not so sure about. How will the people of Westeros react to ruler who brings a huge army of foreign savages to their shores. Where will she settle them? Dorne is the most likely scenario, but Doran or Arianne will not agree to this without their complete loyalty to Sunspear. There is a lot of uncertainty regarding Dany's army. Also keep in mind the disease ravaging Slaver's Bay.

3. The fate of Shireen and House Baratheon is independent of Stannis' fate. If he lives, it will be up to Jon/Dany/Aegon and if he dies, it will still be up to the Targaryens. I'm still not seeing how Robert's bastard is going to magically end up legitimized and ruling the Stormlands. Who in their right mind will approve this? Not the Targs.

4. The dance of the dragons part 2 will decide this. I think Dany's dragons will make the difference.

2. The Iron Fleet at the very least is Dany's. Even if Vic dies (which I hope he does), very few Ironborn would resist her. Dothraki follow strength. In their culture, they would follow Drogon, and likely later Jon if they make it to the end. I think Dany would give some land from the Westerlands and Reach to the Ironborn to prevent the Old Ways. If many Dothraki make it to the Battle for the Dawn, I think it's likely that they would be the first line against the Others. Makes sense to cull the amount of Dothraki, the horses would do some damage, and these warriors know little fear.

3. If Stannis lives, which is VERY unlikely, he will be given Storm's End. Shireen just screams patient zero to me, the greyscale wiping through the North, while Connington does the same in the South. Also, keep in mind Shireen is a little girl, in the middle of a mutiny, at a wall that could collapse any minute with a crazy sorceress who loves king's blood, all while under the threat of undead monsters coming through. So we either have Gendry, a blacksmith who cannot read, or Edric, a bastard who knows how to rule, read, and write, to carry on the Baratheon line.

4. Yeah, the dragons are the thing that just annihilates everything. You think she will have all three under control or lose some?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

2. The Iron Fleet at the very least is Dany's. Even if Vic dies (which I hope he does), very few Ironborn would resist her. Dothraki follow strength. In their culture, they would follow Drogon, and likely later Jon if they make it to the end. I think Dany would give some land from the Westerlands and Reach to the Ironborn to prevent the Old Ways. If many Dothraki make it to the Battle for the Dawn, I think it's likely that they would be the first line against the Others. Makes sense to cull the amount of Dothraki, the horses would do some damage, and these warriors know little fear.

3. If Stannis lives, which is VERY unlikely, he will be given Storm's End. Shireen just screams patient zero to me, the greyscale wiping through the North, while Connington does the same in the South. Also, keep in mind Shireen is a little girl, in the middle of a mutiny, at a wall that could collapse any minute with a crazy sorceress who loves king's blood, all while under the threat of undead monsters coming through. So we either have Gendry, a blacksmith who cannot read, or Edric, a bastard who knows how to rule, read, and write, to carry on the Baratheon line.

4. Yeah, the dragons are the thing that just annihilates everything. You think she will have all three under control or lose some?

2. I have predicted Vic as a potential suitor for Dany (see Drogo and Daario). I agree that she will have the iron fleet with or without Victarian. I'm not sure about the Dothraki being integrated into Westeros. They fit the most in Dorne, if anywhere. They must swear to the Martells for that to happen. As for them fighting in the great war, I don't know how much use they will be in the Northern winter. We will see.

If the ironborn are given anything, they will be given back the Riverlands. The Tully's had the least cause to rebel against House Targaryen. They may earn Riverrun back, but I can see Harrenhal and the title of Lord Paramount going to Victarian or Asha (assuming the ironmen abandon the old ways).

3. Who says the Baratheon line must continue. They are in fact one of the prime candidates for extinction. House Targaryen raised them, House Targaryen will likely end them. I just cannot see any of Robert's bastards being legitimized. It makes no sense to continue the line of the House that usurped your rightful place. I can see House Connington being Lord Paramount and Storm's End. Lord Jon may be on the way out, but he can prepare Red Ronnet to continue on.

4. The dragons are one of the biggest questions. Either they will all survive (Danny and Drogon, Jon and Rhaegal, Viserion and ?) or they will all die (battle with the Others or more poison from the Citadel).

[KingHodorTargaryen]

2. I have predicted Vic as a potential suitor for Dany (see Drogo and Daario). I agree that she will have the iron fleet with or without Victarian. I'm not sure about the Dothraki being integrated into Westeros. They fit the most in Dorne, if anywhere. They must swear to the Martells for that to happen. As for them fighting in the great war, I don't know how much use they will be in the Northern winter. We will see.

If the ironborn are given anything, they will be given back the Riverlands. The Tully's had the least cause to rebel against House Targaryen. They may earn Riverrun back, but I can see Harrenhal and the title of Lord Paramount going to Victarian or Asha (assuming the ironmen abandon the old ways).

3. Who says the Baratheon line must continue. They are in fact one of the prime candidates for extinction. House Targaryen raised them, House Targaryen will likely end them. I just cannot see any of Robert's bastards being legitimized. It makes no sense to continue the line of the House that usurped your rightful place. I can see House Connington being Lord Paramount and Storm's End. Lord Jon may be on the way out, but he can prepare Red Ronnet to continue on.

4. The dragons are one of the biggest questions. Either they will all survive (Danny and Drogon, Jon and Rhaegal, Viserion and ?) or they will all die (battle with the Others or more poison from the Citadel).

2. Or the Twins are given to someone from the Iron Islands. As for Vic being a suitor, no way. This is a guy who burned 7 innocent women and beat his own wife to death, and that's assuming he lives.

3. It doesn't necessarily have to continue, but it makes the most sense that it would. Why would Dany reward Lord Paramount to a house that is actively fighting what would be her greatest human enemy? I know this is kind of crackpot, but maybe Davos could become Lord Paramount, but that's the farthest I can see it going.

4. If Tyrion is going to ride Viserion, he could potentially die. I hope he doesn't, but it is possible. Dany and Jon should be safe.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

2. Or the Twins are given to someone from the Iron Islands. As for Vic being a suitor, no way. This is a guy who burned 7 innocent women and beat his own wife to death, and that's assuming he lives.

3. It doesn't necessarily have to continue, but it makes the most sense that it would. Why would Dany reward Lord Paramount to a house that is actively fighting what would be her greatest human enemy? I know this is kind of crackpot, but maybe Davos could become Lord Paramount, but that's the farthest I can see it going.

4. If Tyrion is going to ride Viserion, he could potentially die. I hope he doesn't, but it is possible. Dany and Jon should be safe.

2. Drogo was just as harsh as Victarian. Daario was a murderous sell sword as well. Dany likes to soothe the savage beast.

3. Connington believes he is fighting for the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms. Until we know for sure, he has to be given the benefit of the doubt. Dany won't act against Aegon unless she knows for sure he is a phony.

4. The "big 3" (Jon, Dany, and Tyrion) should survive. GRRM loves to torture us, but he wouldn't go so far as to eliminate his favorite character (Tyrion) would he?

[KingHodorTargaryen]

2. Drogo was just as harsh as Victarian. Daario was a murderous sell sword as well. Dany likes to soothe the savage beast.

3. Connington believes he is fighting for the rightful heir of the Seven Kingdoms. Until we know for sure, he has to be given the benefit of the doubt. Dany won't act against Aegon unless she knows for sure he is a phony.

4. The "big 3" (Jon, Dany, and Tyrion) should survive. GRRM loves to torture us, but he wouldn't go so far as to eliminate his favorite character (Tyrion) would he?

2. Daario had no slaves, and Dany is what, 15, so she is bound to make bad decisions. She was forced to marry Drogo and she found some humanity in him. With Vic, she doesn't have to marry him. She could make him her own personal chamber pot holder and he couldn't do anything about it.

3. If Dany is the victor, no way is she gonna give anything to someone who fought her.

4. This is GRRM. This person would have Tyrion defeat the Others and be Hand of the King to die from slipping on a banana peel XD

[Cybvep]

If many Dothraki make it to the Battle for the Dawn, I think it's likely that they would be the first line against the Others. Makes sense to cull the amount of Dothraki, the horses would do some damage, and these warriors know little fear.

Again, the Dothraki would be pretty much useless during winter.

[NewJeffCT]

How long did it take Victarian to reach Essos? Years? I think not. With fast ships and favorable winds, the troops can be back to Westeros in time to make some kind of difference.

The numbers won't be the problem. Braavos and the other free cities are big cities like KL or Oldtown. The problem will be the quality of troops available. All the good companies are presently engaged in the Meereen affair. But Massey will not have trouble finding bodies.

Yes, once he gets to sea, Massey will move faster. But, if the autumn brings dangerous weather at sea for skilled sailors of the Iron Fleet (they lost what, over 1/3 of their 100 ships, if I recall), how bad will the winter be in comparison?

Also, it's taken Stannis weeks to get from Deepwood Motte to his little area outside of Winterfell. It's at least that far to keep going to White Harbor, and further if Massey goes to Eastwatch. Even though Massey will move faster with a smaller group, it's still going to take weeks to trudge through the snow to White Harbor, and possibly a few months if he goes to Eastwatch. Then, you'll be returning with Braavosi mercenaries who aren't used to marching through snow on the way back.

I think if Stannis actually wins the battle for Winterfell and Davos can find and return Rickon Stark, his army will swell exponentially in size. I'm guessing that the Manderlys and others will add a good 5,000 or more men to Stannis' current host, as well as a good amount of sea power. Massey will likely send several waves of mercenaries to Stannis.

BTW - just because Martin hasn't mentioned other sellsword companies doesn't mean they are not there. There could be smaller companies of 50 to 100 men that are too numerous to mention. Almost all the ones Martin has mentioned are far larger - the Stormcrows are 500 mounted men, the Second Sons are 2,000, etc

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Again, the Dothraki would be pretty much useless during winter.

Yes. So why keep them around? Wights cannot reanimate quickly, and probably not at all past the Wall. Dothraki are Dany's most expendable and barbarian warriors, so why would she keep them alive just for them to loot and pillage in the summer?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Yes. So why keep them around? Wights cannot reanimate quickly, and probably not at all past the Wall. Dothraki are Dany's most expendable and barbarian warriors, so why would she keep them alive just for them to loot and pillage in the summer?

Dany would never think along the lines of culling her troops. She is just too honorable for that. As I said, her likeliest course of action is having the settle in Dorne (least populous of the kingdoms and plenty of space). She will have them swear fealty to House Martell as a means of making up for Quentyn. She kills two birds with one stone by simply resettling them.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Dany would never think along the lines of culling her troops. She is just too honorable for that. As I said, her likeliest course of action is having the settle in Dorne (least populous of the kingdoms and plenty of space). She will have them swear fealty to House Martell as a means of making up for Quentyn. She kills two birds with one stone by simply resettling them.

Dany might never willingly cull her troops, but Jorah, Barristan, Jon, or Tyrion would not be so squeamish. I think putting Dothraki in Dorne would have the same effect as putting 20,000 wildlings in the North.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Dany might never willingly cull her troops, but Jorah, Barristan, Jon, or Tyrion would not be so squeamish. I think putting Dothraki in Dorne would have the same effect as putting 20,000 wildlings in the North.

Not necessarily, remember this has been done before in Dorne. Nymeria brought 10,000 ships and altered the course of Dorne's history. Additionally, Dany knows will reform the old ways of the Dothraki.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

Not necessarily, remember this has been done before in Dorne. Nymeria brought 10,000 ships and altered the course of Dorne's history. Additionally, Dany knows will reform the old ways of the Dothraki.

I really do not see why Dany would want to do that. Dorne is going to fight for Aegon, and putting slaving, violent, brutal horseback warriors in a desert that is completely different to the Dothraki Sea, would simply alienate them even more.

[Cybvep]

Yeah, the Dothraki should either be used in combat or not used at all. They would make terrible occupation forces.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I really do not see why Dany would want to do that. Dorne is going to fight for Aegon, and putting slaving, violent, brutal horseback warriors in a desert that is completely different to the Dothraki Sea, would simply alienate them even more.

Yeah, the Dothraki should either be used in combat or not used at all. They would make terrible occupation forces.

We are talking about the end of the war, when all is said and done. I am assuming the Aegon situation is settled, the war with the Others is settled, and Jon is settled:

1. I doubt Dany will just ship all of her people back across the sea to Essos.

2. I doubt a large number of Dothraki are going to die in the great battle.

3. The Dothraki are by nature slavers, rapers, and pillagers, but a strong leader (Dany) will change that, just like we are expecting her to do the same with the iron men.

4. No one is talking about occupation, unless she means to leave the Dothraki to in Meeree. She would never be that dumb. She needs them for battle so she will not leave them behind. Resettlement is the only real solution after the war.

5. Dorne makes by far the most sense. The climate and topology are the most similar. They will be right at home in southern Dorne next to the Greenblood.

[Manderlay]

snip

If Daenerys doesn't ship the Dothraki back to Essos to their homes, the westerosi will despise her for that, more like another war will break out, it changes the balance of that continent drastically, and Dothraki are savages, the people of Rhoynar were not, but they still fought wars when they first came, if Daenerys brings all the Dothraki to westeros (how is she going to feed them, most like she will cause a famine) she would alienate her own people she means to rule, and how can you be sure that the Dothraki will change their ways, being a strong ruler is not enough, the proof of that is Slavers Bay, Dany tried and failed at abolishing Slavery. And you think the Dornish are just going to accept Dothraki savages as their neighbours, the solution to that would be wage a war again against Dorne while having little or no support.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

If Daenerys doesn't ship the Dothraki back to Essos to their homes, the westerosi will despise her for that, more like another war will break out, it changes the balance of that continent drastically, and Dothraki are savages, the people of Rhoynar were not, but they still fought wars when they first came, if Daenerys brings all the Dothraki to westeros (how is she going to feed them, most like she will cause a famine) she would alienate her own people she means to rule, and how can you be sure that the Dothraki will change their ways, being a strong ruler is not enough, the proof of that is Slavers Bay, Dany tried and failed at abolishing Slavery. And you think the Dornish are just going to accept Dothraki savages as their neighbours, the solution to that would be wage a war again against Dorne while having little or no support.

Oh yea of little faith. Think about the Dothraki who followed Dany after Drogo's death. They became a changed people. The answer is to eliminate Khal Joquo and take full command. How on earth do you know what the Rhoynar were like when they landed?

Famine? How will she cause a natural disaster? Shift the balance of power in the realm? Dorne is the least populous of the kingdoms by far, thousands of trained warriors will be a welcome addition to House Martell. If the realm is united under Targaryen rule once more, which we assume it will be, then there is no threat to the Reach or the Stormlands. The Dothraki will of course have to agree to abandon the old ways and accept house Martell as their overlords.

If there is no hope for the Dothraki then there is no hope for the ironmen.

[weaselontherun]

IMO things are not looking good for Stannis and the NW, because of the logic of storytelling, if nothing else. Just think about it for a moment. If the Others never cross the Wall, then we will be like "Huh? So what was all the fuss about?". That would be rather anticlimatic. The Others need to become a credible threat to the Realm - they need to score some serious victories, the Wall needs to fall. Only then they will be defeated. Somewhere along the way, we will also learn what the Others planned to do, because I don't think that GRRM plans to make them 100% evil.

Shucks, all the Others and the Wights have to do is gather to the west of Shadow Tower ouflank NW and strikeout southeast thru the gorge and over the river to be on the northwestern edge of the Gift....not that difficult after for the undead eh....

[Manderlay]

Famine? How will she cause a natural disaster? Shift the balance of power in the realm? Dorne is the least populous of the kingdoms by far, thousands of trained warriors will be a welcome addition to House Martell. If the realm is united under Targaryen rule once more, which we assume it will be, then there is no threat to the Reach or the Stormlands. The Dothraki will of course have to agree to abandon the old ways and accept house Martell as their overlords.

If there is no hope for the Dothraki then there is no hope for the ironmen.

There is shortage of food in half of the realm and winter has come, when Daenerys lands in westeros during this, with a vast army of Dothraki and all its people, how will she feed them? Bringing all of the Dothraki to westeros would be logistically unlikely, she will bring an army but neither can she bring the Dothraki khalasars, there are on an average 20,000 people in one khalasar, and those are the small ones, Daenerys will take control of Dothraki sure, but she cant bring them all, where is she going to find that may ships to bring all of her armies to Westeros, she will get ships but not for the staggering numbers you are suggesting.

We don't know exactly what the Rhoynar were, but they certainly came from a civilized life, if you have read the Tyrion chapters, there were palaces on the rhoyne that were once part of their kingdom, the Rhoynar exodus did cause war in Dorne, and Daeron the young tried to take Dorne but he never could hold it.

I didn't say no hope for Dothraki, the dothraki warriors who came to westeros to fight for Dany can return to Essos after the wars are done, and please explain the connection to Iron men, I think Dany will land in the vale with sufficient army but not so large that it would cause her logistical problems.

And Dorne is going to side with Aegon, not Daenerys, Aegon has already landed and Doran is going to act, and Arriane will play a role as well.