Stannis' recruitment plans

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The Iron Bank have pulled all loans and are demanding payment from outstanding loans. You must realise how significant that is. So on top of everything else, the IB is crippling the Westerosi economy through constriction of the money supply. The bank will demand soldiers and sellswords from anything or anyone it wants, or simply take assets and armies by force or threat of force as part of their contracted repayments. That's one possible source. They'll be training their own anyway, that's another. There are many, many small sellsword companies scattered throughout Essos. The Iron Bank will gulp them up too, that's another major source. Last, there are minor lordlings and pirates and sellswords, not to mention tribes, captains and bandits of various scattered armies throughout Westeros too, many of whom desire food or silver or who just don't want to piss of the bank. So that's yet another source.

So, 20,000? You kidding?! For the Iron Bank, the most powerful single institution in the entire series... well that's a piece of piss. The Iron Bank will have its due.

I have contemplated this very thing myself. The IB is powerful enough to pull off a "Ninepenny Kings" style invasion. If we get near the end of the series and the forces of Westeros have been severely decimated on all points due to civil war and the war with the "Others," an outside force from Essos could overrun the place. The Dragons may not survive the "Others" or the Maesters of the Citadel. All Westerosi armies will likely be spent. The Ninepenny Kings failed b/c the Targaryens were in firm command and moved early to crush them. But now there is chaos all over the place.

I think ultimately Dany or Jon will pay, but if the IB has other ideas, Westeros could be ripe for the picking.

[Artos Stark]

I've said time several times that I don't for a second believe that Stannis ever sees these mercenaries that he ordered. First of all the journey would take well over a year realstically, secondly there likely isn't any companies avaialbe, third is that mercs from Essos would freeze to death in seconds in a Northern Winter

[mrlukeduke]

It's certainly possible! I don't think they'd just freeze to death in seconds though. I mean, if they're recruited by Massey under supervision of the bank ready for a Westerosi winter, they'll be coming prepared. I expect they'll have decent supplies. And the wall, where many of them could be manned, will be getting food stocks from Braavos too.

[NewJeffCT]

I've said time several times that I don't for a second believe that Stannis ever sees these mercenaries that he ordered. First of all the journey would take well over a year realstically, secondly there likely isn't any companies avaialbe, third is that mercs from Essos would freeze to death in seconds in a Northern Winter

The cities of Essos are big enough that I believe there are plenty of mercenaries available. However, they might be in smaller companies of 50-100 that we haven't heard of yet. As I said above, if Massey can hire a first wave of 500-1000 mercenaries and get them to Stannis quickly, it could make a huge difference in just the battle for the North. (Assuming the Pink Letter is a red herring and Stannis is still alive...)

Obviously, Stannis would need a whole lot more if he hoped to conquer Westeros. But, if he defeated Ramsay & Roose and Davos found Rickon, he'd have White Harbor and others coming to his side. Of course, then we'd have to see what played out with Aegon and the Golden Company, as well as Dany and her dragons and Unsullied, Ironborn and Dothraki.

[Anima]

There are probably many mercenaries doing easy duts like protecting traders, children, women and so on. I don't think any of the free cities would keep a free companie in peace-time, but how peacefully does it ever gets in the western parts of Essos?

Also a mercenarie can be a man who only fought for his lord before. The stepstones and disputed lands are allways dangerous, thus men are willing to leave those parts of the world for a bit of gold. If GRRM can make up unsullied for insany-dany he can make up a few mercenaries for the rightfull king- even if it isn't necessary.

But I would cast a fair dice that half of them are already on Westerosi shore.

No one seems to have noticed so I'll say it. GRRM didn't make up the unsullied for Dany on a whim. If you re-read the first book you'll see that in the first Dany chapters maybe in the very first one, the guards in Illiryo's house are eunuchs with pointed caps so they didn't pop outta nowhere. GRRM had thought of them since the beginning.

[History of Westeros]

Once word spreads that the Iron Bank of Braavos is backing this expedition, sellswords, especially those in Braavos, will come to Massey. Who knows the Iron Bank's reputation than the Braavosi themselves?

"The Iron Bank will have it's due." I suspect many in Braavos expect Stannis to win now.

This is a city that is known for street duels, and it's the "greatest and most powerful of the free cities".

AND

Braavosi hate slavery. People pointing out how many free companies are in Slaver's Bay and how "that must be just about all of them" are ignoring this rather important factor. The Braavosi sellsword market appears to be rather untapped at this point.

Mero was Braavosi but the only reason he took the Second Sons all the way out to Slaver's Bay was because the Free Cities wouldn't hire him anymore.

[History of Westeros]

I wonder if Stannis will somehow be able to get Saan back in the fold now that he has this massive line of credit.

[aryagonnakill]

I wonder if Stannis will somehow be able to get Saan back in the fold now that he has this massive line of credit.

I don't think Stannis would want him personally, but I could be wrong.

[DExit]

No one seems to have noticed so I'll say it. GRRM didn't make up the unsullied for Dany on a whim. If you re-read the first book you'll see that in the first Dany chapters maybe in the very first one, the guards in Illiryo's house are eunuchs with pointed caps so they didn't pop outta nowhere. GRRM had thought of them since the beginning.

He knows the story, so at a certain point in his writing progress, he thinks 'hmm insany-dany needs a bunch of slave-eunuchs to save her ass'. But then he thinks 'hmm people gonna suspect exactly this' so he adds the eunuchs more early in the books. And some people are fooled by this.

[The Night's Prince]

Seeing as the Iron Bank is supporting his quest, if he actually stays loyal to Stannis money should not be a problem. Otherwise the Bank's reputation would be highly deceptive.

Ahhh forgot about that. But is he just carrying around gold? How does he convince them to join without like a "deposit" or something? That's kind of what I meant by does he have to stay in Braavos since the Bank is there obviously.

[mrlukeduke]

I think they just deduct his expenses from his "tab" at the source in Braavos. Which explains why when Stannis wants sell-swords, the bank actually arranges it for him. They charge admin and travel fees to the account as well, I'm sure!

[Manderlay]

But in Essos where wars are conducted by cities I don't think there are many freeriders. I believe that the vast majority of mercenaries are employed by companies and because so many companies are preoccupied (and we don't know which of them will survive) probably there are not enough men available for Justin Massey.

So, if GRRM suddenly creates them, wouldn't that be too easy and unrealistic even for fiction?

Justin Massey will be heading for Braavos, that city is the most powerful of the free cities in Essos, so no Justin Massey can hire enough sellswords and GRRM is not suddenly creating them. In bravos he might get anywhere between 5000-10,000 swords, the archers that Stannis needs will be Myrish company perhaps because Massey might not stop just at Braavos as instructed, there are more sellsails that can be hired at other free cities like Lys, but the Hightowers might get there first.

The Iron bank has opened its coffers to me. You will collect their coin and hire ships and sellswords. A company of good repute, if you can find one. The Golden Company would be my first choice, if they are not already under contract. Seek for them in the Disputed Lands, if need be. But first hire as many swords as you can find in Braavos, and send them to me by way of Eastwatch. Archers as well, we need more bows.

Theon Chapter from TWOW

[History of Westeros]

In general I think too much is being made of "20,000" men. It's not a literal number.

He wants as many men as he can get. If Massey actually sent 20k men, Stannis' army would massively outnumber the Bolton/Frey alliance. Hell, 5k would give him numerical superiority.

Stannis was aiming high. Also knows Massey is highly motivated to acquire a lordship, so why not put Massey's ambition to use? It's quite clever of Stannis to tie the two together. By setting the admittedly difficult (perhaps impossible) goal of hiring 20k sellswords, he gives himself more leverage when it comes time to negotiate Massey's reward.

Massey: "I sent many sellswords your Grace, I have earned a reward."

Stannis: "a king can count as well as a knight, ten thousand is not twenty. You shall be rewarded, but as you did not meet your target, it shall be appropriately lessened".

Something like that.

Of course, I doubt any of us expect Stannis to be in a position to give Massey a castle once the Others are in play.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

In general I think too much is being made of "20,000" men. It's not a literal number.

He wants as many men as he can get. If Massey actually sent 20k men, Stannis' army would massively outnumber the Bolton/Frey alliance. Hell, 5k would give him numerical superiority.

Stannis was aiming high. Also knows Massey is highly motivated to acquire a lordship, so why not put Massey's ambition to use? It's quite clever of Stannis to tie the two together. By setting the admittedly difficult (perhaps impossible) goal of hiring 20k sellswords, he gives himself more leverage when it comes time to negotiate Massey's reward.

Massey: "I sent many sellswords your Grace, I have earned a reward."

Stannis: "a king can count as well as a knight, ten thousand is not twenty. You shall be rewarded, but as you did not meet your target, it shall be appropriately lessened".

Something like that.

Of course, I doubt any of us expect Stannis to be in a position to give Massey a castle once the Others are in play.

I disagree somewhat. The above post is slightly off. He told Massey to bring back at least 20k (and not a man less). Twenty-thousand men is the baseline for a great host in Westeros, and is considered the amount needed to be a serious threat.

1. Robb took 20,000 Northmen with him to the South.

2. Tywins host had 20,000

3. Renly was thought to have about 20,000 Stormland troops in his alliance with the Reach.

4. Renly took 20,000 mounted troops with him to face Stannis at Storm's End.

5. Stannis had 20,000 ground troops in his assault on KL (along with his naval support of 200 ships)

6. The Ironmen are thought to be able to muster 20-25,000 troops

7. Jaime had 15,000 men in his host

8. GRRM said that every region should be able to muster at least 20,000

Outside of the Reach, an army of 20,000 is standard for being able to do serious damage. Also remember, Stannis has much bigger plans than just defeating the Boltons and consolidating the North. As far as he knows, he still has to contend with the "Others" and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.

[aryagonnakill]

He knows the story, so at a certain point in his writing progress, he thinks 'hmm insany-dany needs a bunch of slave-eunuchs to save her ass'. But then he thinks 'hmm people gonna suspect exactly this' so he adds the eunuchs more early in the books. And some people are fooled by this.

If he came up with that plan before the first book then he didn't make it up out of nowhere, he started it like 20 years ago. The unsullied were mentioned in both Dany chapters, and in a Ned chapter when Robert says that a Pentoshi cheese monger has them locked up in a house guarded by unsullied.

[History of Westeros]

I disagree somewhat. The above post is slightly off. He told Massey to bring back at least 20k (and not a man less). Twenty-thousand men is the baseline for a great host in Westeros, and is considered the amount needed to be a serious threat.

I know what he said. My point is that he wasn't being literal. What do you imagine Stannis will do if Massey comes back with 12k, execute him? send them back?

1. Robb took 20,000 Northmen with him to the South.

2. Tywins host had 20,000

3. Renly was thought to have about 20,000 Stormland troops in his alliance with the Reach.

4. Renly took 20,000 mounted troops with him to face Stannis at Storm's End.

5. Stannis had 20,000 ground troops in his assault on KL (along with his naval support of 200 ships)

6. The Ironmen are thought to be able to muster 20-25,000 troops

7. Jaime had 15,000 men in his host

8. GRRM said that every region should be able to muster at least 20,000

Outside of the Reach, an army of 20,000 is standard for being able to do serious damage. Also remember, Stannis has much bigger plans than just defeating the Boltons and consolidating the North. As far as he knows, he still has to contend with the "Others" and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.

These numbers are nice but irrelevant. He doesn't need sellswords to have a huge host, he just needs them to be a *part* of an eventual huge host.

If Stannis beats Bolton, the rest of the North joins him. The Umbers, the Manderlys, etc. Possibly the entire North, *including* the defeated hosts of Bolton, Dustin, Ryswell etc.

One thing at a time. First the North, then the rest.

Of course we all know that the Others will have something to say about that.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

20 000 is impossible IMHO. But 10 000 is in the realm of possibilities. The Maiden Men, Bright Banners, Gallant Men & the Ragged Standard are unaccounted for. Then, there is the lonely sellswords and bravos.

And then , there's obviously al those mercenaries GRRM can create on the fly.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I know what he said. My point is that he wasn't being literal. What do you imagine Stannis will do if Massey comes back with 12k, execute him? send them back?

Have we been reading about the same Stannis Baratheon? The same man who refused to yield SE, so his men were down to eating rats. The same man who knighted Davos Seaworth for saving his his a** and then turned right around and chopped off his fingers for smuggling. The same man who would kill his own brother for the crown?

I don't know who you have been reading about, but the Stannis I know is the most literal, rigid and consistent man in Westeros. If he says at least 20k, you better believe he means at least 20k. Massey may not send all of the men at once, but I doubt he returns unless he has raised sufficient men.

These numbers are nice but irrelevant. He doesn't need sellswords to have a huge host, he just needs them to be a *part* of an eventual huge host.

20k men irrelevant? With all of his enemies rolling around with superior numbers, you best believe that every man will count. If the North rallies behind him it will bring some men, but the best part of their strength died with Robb in the South.

Nice numbers? They exist for a reason. This is the amount of men needed to win battles. I know Robb won many battles with less men, but much of it was by incredible luck as well as guile (Whispering Wood, Oxcross, Riverrun). He eventually lost the entire war b/c of lack of numbers. Once the Lannisters and Tyrells united Roose Bolton saw the writing on the wall and turned his cloak.

Nice? Irrelevant? Nonsense. Twenty-thousand swords are neither nice nor irrelevant, they are necessary and crucial to any victory that Stannis hopes to have. He would not have requested the number if did not feel he needed those exact numbers.

f Stannis beats Bolton, the rest of the North joins him. The Umbers, the Manderlys, etc. Possibly the entire North, *including* the defeated hosts of Bolton, Dustin, Ryswell etc. One thing at a time. First the North, then the rest.

You are making a huge assumption. I know Manderly has made a pledge to Ser Davos, but he cannot speak for the rest of the North. You are also forgetting Robb's will, which will reach the rest of his bannerman at some point. The North has been decimated by this war more than any other country, except the Riverlands. Rushing south to fight another war may not be in the cards. Going to the Wall is a different story. The North may in fact declare for Stannis, but this may entail holding the North for him and no more.

Of course we all know that the Others will have something to say about that.

If you know then you would not assert that numbers are irrelevant. When the "Others" raise the whole of their undead legions, every able bodied man will be needed to survive the second "Long Night."

[NewJeffCT]

well, the quote from above in the Theon chapter says to first hire as many swords as Massey can in Braavos and send them to him by way of Eastwatch, as well as bows. If Massey can even hire 1,000 swords and 500 archers in Braavos quickly, it could make a huge difference in the battle for the North.

Not sure of the exact numbers, but I think Bolton has under 10,000 men while Stannis has somewhere around 5,000 with the hill clans. (please correct my numbers if I'm wrong) If the Ramsay Snow really lost to Stannis and Manderly's men switch sides, the odds will be a lot closer to even - and the Braavosi sellswords could turn the tide.

[History of Westeros]

Have we been reading about the same Stannis Baratheon? The same man who refused to yield SE, so his men were down to eating rats. The same man who knighted Davos Seaworth for saving his his a** and then turned right around and chopped off his fingers for smuggling. The same man who would kill his own brother for the crown?

I don't know who you have been reading about, but the Stannis I know is the most literal, rigid and consistent man in Westeros. If he says at least 20k, you better believe he means at least 20k. Massey may not send all of the men at once, but I doubt he returns unless he has raised sufficient men.

You're partly right. He's rigid and consistent and often literal, but often not. He's as sarcastic as Tyrion and sarcasm is never literal.

“Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?”

“Any of you, I would think. Even the cook.”

Does Stannis literally think the cook would be as effective a LC as Slynt?

"Had I shown him the contents of my privy, he would have called that admirable as well"

So he literally believes Lord Celtigar would call his poop admirable?

"It is swords I need from them, not kisses."

When Jon is speaking of winning the smallfolk's love. This is clearly not literal either.

I could go on, but there's so many examples I don't think it's necessary.

He is precise and he is blunt and he is detail oriented and that often is synonymous with "literal" but there are too many examples of him being anything but to assume he always is.

20k men irrelevant? With all of his enemies rolling around with superior numbers, you best believe that every man will count. If the North rallies behind him it will bring some men, but the best part of their strength died with Robb in the South.

Nice numbers? They exist for a reason. This is the amount of men needed to win battles. I know Robb won many battles with less men, but much of it was by incredible luck as well as guile (Whispering Wood, Oxcross, Riverrun). He eventually lost the entire war b/c of lack of numbers. Once the Lannisters and Tyrells united Roose Bolton saw the writing on the wall and turned his cloak.

Nice? Irrelevant? Nonsense. Twenty-thousand swords are neither nice nor irrelevant, they are necessary and crucial to any victory that Stannis hopes to have. He would not have requested the number if did not feel he needed those exact numbers.

I meant those numbers are irrelevant to the discussion, not irrelevant in general. The number of men in other armies has nothing to do with whether or not he was being literal with his demand for 20k sellswords.

You are making a huge assumption. I know Manderly has made a pledge to Ser Davos, but he cannot speak for the rest of the North. You are also forgetting Robb's will, which will reach the rest of his bannerman at some point. The North has been decimated by this war more than any other country, except the Riverlands. Rushing south to fight another war may not be in the cards. Going to the Wall is a different story. The North may in fact declare for Stannis, but this may entail holding the North for him and no more.

It's not a huge assumption. It's completely standard to point out that Lords tend to pick the side who is winning, and that Stannis, despite being rigid, has shown plenty of times that he is willing to accept the surrender of his enemies if they are willing to fight for him. So if Stannis starts winning, some will flip to him. Especially considering how many Northmen hate the Boltons, who are the alternative.

As to Robb's will, that's a thorn that none of us can predict at this point. Yet it has nothing to do with whether or not Stannis was being literal.