Melisandre Vs Moqorro

[FuriousGeorge]

How come Melisandre's ability to predict the future is about as reliable as a crack addict but Moqorro is so sure of his visions that he is willing to bet his life on it by embarking on a voyage that he know will end up with him in he middle of the sea clinging to a bit of driftwood? Does Melisandre ever do anything that suggests she has a similar level of confidence in her visions? Personally I think Melisandre will ultimately be revealed as a charlatan (could be wrong!) and that, whilst this is obviously not proof, it is a fairly significant signpost.

[Ser Greg of House House]

And yet... Mel's shady predictions led her to Jon Snow, even if she hasn't realized this yet. Moqorro is heading towards Dany the Mad Queen.

Mel 1 x 0 Moq

[Mladen]

I believe both of them are of same capability. I don`t think Moqorro` visions are anything clearer than Melisandre`s, only that he is more convinced in them. He is just more radical than she is.

[yolkboy]

Maybe red priests have different talents.

Mel can't do readings very well, but i think giving birth to shadows demons kinda proves in other areas she's no charlatan. And the glamours.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Maybe red priests have different talents.

Mel can't do readings very well, but i think giving birth to shadows demons kinda proves in other areas she's no charlatan. And the glamours.

This. Different priest can have differing levels of expertise in differeing fields. Moqorro, as he serves under Benerro, is more likely to be better trained in most arts, while Melisandre clearly knows of shadowbinding, but perhaps has little training in understanding prophetic visions. Thoros may have been trained in non-mystic arts, more or less parlor tricks, which would explain Aerys not being impressed with his tricks, and his surprise at the kiss of fire.

[Stoned Dragon]

Mel is pretty much always able to sense danger to her own person. How is that different from Moqorro's ability to survive at sea? He saw what the dangers were and he prepared accordingly.

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But I also don't think we should see these two as oppositional. Melisandre's fires have led her (unknowingly) to Jon Snow and the fight against the Others, while Moqorro is heading towards Dany and her dragons in order to get her to Westeros. It seems to me as if the "Red God" is moving his pieces in places where they can be the most useful for the coming fight.

[FuriousGeorge]

Maybe red priests have different talents.

Mel can't do readings very well, but i think giving birth to shadows demons kinda proves in other areas she's no charlatan. And the glamours.

Ok perhaps charlatan is the wrong word. What I mean is that i really think Melisandre has an agenda that we do not know about and is not the servant of any benevolent god. I really get the feeling that Moqorro/Thoros are on one side and Melisandre is on the other, but clearly I am on my own in thinking this.

[FuriousGeorge]

Mel is pretty much always able to sense danger to her own person. How is that different from Moqorro's ability to survive at sea? He saw what the dangers were and he prepared accordingly.

---

But I also don't think we should see these two as oppositional. Melisandre's fires have led her (unknowingly) to Jon Snow and the fight against the Others, while Moqorro is heading towards Dany and her dragons in order to get her to Westeros. It seems to me as if the "Red God" is moving his pieces in places where they can be the most useful for the coming fight.

I think you are being wilfully obtuse if you are genuinely asking that question. Melisandre's struggles with her visions are made quite clear in aDwD but Moqorro literally bets his life that what he has seen is right and that Victarion will save him.

[FuriousGeorge]

I believe both of them are of same capability. I don`t think Moqorro` visions are anything clearer than Melisandre`s, only that he is more convinced in them. He is just more radical than she is.

I disagree I think the implication is that Moqorro's visions are far clearer than Melisandre's

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Ok perhaps charlatan is the wrong word. What I mean is that i really think Melisandre has an agenda that we do not know about and is not the servant of any benevolent god. I really get the feeling that Moqorro/Thoros are on one side and Melisandre is on the other, but clearly I am on my own in thinking this.

She could be a heretic. Possibly excommunicated, or simply acting of her own agenda/interpretation.

EDIT: Meaning if she was excommunicated, or struck out on her own, she may not have been trained. I doubt the talents are just natural gifts that all red priests have innately.

[Mladen]

I disagree I think the implication is that Moqorro's visions are far clearer than Melisandre's

I wouldn`t agree. Even Moqorro`s visions about Dance of dragons are rather blurry, and he can`t see the beginning and the end of the vision. Both him and Melisandre are translators and they could always be wrong. Their visions shouldn`t been taken lightly, but also you should be sceptical about them.

[FuriousGeorge]

And yet... Mel's shady predictions led her to Jon Snow, even if she hasn't realized this yet. Moqorro is heading towards Dany the Mad Queen.

Mel 1 x 0 Moq

Yeah but Moqorro is a well cool name - Mel 1-1 Moq

[FuriousGeorge]

I wouldn`t agree. Even Moqorro`s visions about Dance of dragons are rather blurry, and he can`t see the beginning and the end of the vision. Both him and Melisandre are translators and they could always be wrong. Their visions shouldn`t been taken lightly, but also you should be sceptical about them.

But how can you be sceptical about his ability when he bets his life on it and comes up trumps? Do you think if the roles were reversed Melisandre would have been capable of the same?

[yolkboy]

And yet... Mel's shady predictions led her to Jon Snow, even if she hasn't realized this yet. Moqorro is heading towards Dany the Mad Queen.

Mel 1 x 0 Moq

Moqorro is a slave. I doubt he gets to choose who he heads towards.

[A Winters Summer]

But how can you be sceptical about his ability when he bets his life on it and comes up trumps? Do you think if the roles were reversed Melisandre would have been capable of the same?

Just because he bets his life on the vision doesn't make him any better, just more confident or stupid. Mel just plays the game a differnt way.

[Mladen]

But how can you be sceptical about his ability when he bets his life on it and comes up trumps? Do you think if the roles were reversed Melisandre would have been capable of the same?

Well, Melisandre also knows how high are the stakes here? You think she doesn`t know how precarious her situation is? Melisandre is just smarter, she uses her influence on Stannis to press her advantage. Unlike Moqorro who suddenly lost any choice and fights for mere survival, Melisandre is playing more dangerous game. Both of them have something disturbingly fanatical in them, and I wouldn`t disregard either of them. Remember that Melisandre gave birth to a shadow-child that killed Renly. If that is not proof of power, I don`t know what is.

[Starfell]

But how can you be sceptical about his ability when he bets his life on it and comes up trumps? Do you think if the roles were reversed Melisandre would have been capable of the same?

Just because he was right once doesn't mean he's right all the time. Mel correctly foresaw Cressen's assassination attempt and successfully countered it, either via magic or by antidote but we know she's wrong at other times. Likewise, we know that Moqorro has visions that are not imediately clearcut. On top of that, we know that Red priest visions are often most sensitive to threats against their person, so if Moqorro foresaw he wasn't going to drown then why would he worry about it anymore than Mel did when she chugged a goblet of Strangler?

[JLE]

I think GRRM is telling us something very, very interesting, in giving Mellisandre a POV for the first time, whereas previously she's only been seen through others.

Not least, that she is becoming increasingly unsure of herself. Perhaps she is beginning to think she backed the wrong person - or, having seen Stannis, having mistaken him for the hero, rather than the person who would lead her to the hero. Also, it is fascinating to see that when she looks for either Stannis or Azor Ahai, she sees only snow (the weather) or Snow (the person). Either could be a symbol for the other, in vision terms... although Stannis's fate may well involve another Snow, namely Ramsay (which may imply that the infamous Pink Letter may, regrettably, end up being true.)

[FuriousGeorge]

Well, Melisandre also knows how high are the stakes here? You think she doesn`t know how precarious her situation is? Melisandre is just smarter, she uses her influence on Stannis to press her advantage. Unlike Moqorro who suddenly lost any choice and fights for mere survival, Melisandre is playing more dangerous game. Both of them have something disturbingly fanatical in them, and I wouldn`t disregard either of them. Remember that Melisandre gave birth to a shadow-child that killed Renly. If that is not proof of power, I don`t know what is.

Why do you think Melisandre is smarter? And where does the idea that Moqorro is just fighting for survival come from? I'm not denying that she is powerful because obviously that would be stupid but it is definitely true that Moqorro's visions are more accurate.

[Young Nan]

Moqorros visions aren't necessarily more accurate, he is just better at guessing what they mean.

As Melisandre says, the fault lies in the reader.