Melisandre Vs Moqorro

[Mladen]

Haha mayhaps.

That was a bad joke :). And sorry for that.

But, in all seriousness, wiki isn`t reliable source, since anyone can rewrite, it is subjected to many mistakes. I know peoplw there are trying to correct those mistakes, but they can`t do everything. So, perhaps, his visions are clearer by some poster, but we can`t guarantee that since we don`t have his POV

[Faint]

Do you think he's seen Dany too? There was a red priest at her wedding with Drogo, and IIRC he had a vague but possible similar description.

Given his statement, I'm pretty sure he has seen all living Targaryens and Blackfyres, by which I mean Bloodraven, Jon, Daenerys, Aegon and Varys (assuming that Varys and Aegon are Blackfyres).

[yolkboy]

Do you think he's seen Dany too? There was a red priest at her wedding with Drogo, and IIRC he had a vague but possible similar description.

EDIT. i mean seen in person

"a red priest even fatter than Illyrio"

[FuriousGeorge]

But, in all seriousness, wiki isn`t reliable source, since anyone can rewrite, it is subjected to many mistakes. I know peoplw there are trying to correct those mistakes, but they can`t do everything. So, perhaps, his visions are clearer by some poster, but we can`t guarantee that since we don`t have his POV

Yeah I was reading about the Blackfyre rebellions on there the other day and I don't know about the accuracy of the information but some of the writing is really really poor. I am going to work on it once I have graduated because I am a proper geek for editing for some reason (weird I know!). But with regards to Morroqo I definitely agree with whoever wrote that particular entry.

[Osric]

And yet... Mel's shady predictions led her to Jon Snow, even if she hasn't realized this yet. Moqorro is heading towards Dany the Mad Queen.

Mel 1 x 0 Moq

Actually it was Davos fault that Mel knows Jon, not her own predictions. Davos urged Stannis to go to the Wall, without that event Mel would never had met Jo

[Malcolm of House Tucker]

I think GRRM is telling us something very, very interesting, in giving Mellisandre a POV for the first time, whereas previously she's only been seen through others.

Not least, that she is becoming increasingly unsure of herself. Perhaps she is beginning to think she backed the wrong person - or, having seen Stannis, having mistaken him for the hero, rather than the person who would lead her to the hero. Also, it is fascinating to see that when she looks for either Stannis or Azor Ahai, she sees only snow (the weather) or Snow (the person). Either could be a symbol for the other, in vision terms... although Stannis's fate may well involve another Snow, namely Ramsay (which may imply that the infamous Pink Letter may, regrettably, end up being true.)

I agree with you here. I am also concerned about Stannis's sword Lightbringer, which seems to be nothing more than a glamor Melisandre is using to make appear to be the Red Sword of Heroes (note that the sword has a ruby in its pommel). This bothers me because if she genuinely believed at one point that Stannis WAS Azor Ahai then why arm him with a fake weapon and deceive everyone about it? Melisandre is up to something...

To throw in my two cents on this thread, I believe Jon is Azor Ahai and that Mel is beginning to (or will eventually) see that. However, I think Moqorro IS a more talented Red Priest and is bringing the second part of the Others Solution to Westeros. Jon Snow may well slay this "Great Other" if such a thing exists, but I have no doubt that Dany's dragons will have some part to play in the fight against the Others/white walkers. Also if the Great Other doesn't come south, Dragons seem like a brilliant way to traverse the Land of Always Winter swiftly.

It must also be noted that Dany seems to have never heard about the dangers of the North, so I think it will be up to Moqorro to educate her. If he can work hard enough to convince her to take a detour up North, then props for him. Otherwise, I see Dany shrugging off tales of Others much like the other lords do, as when she finally lands, she will be too intent on reclaiming her kingdom.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

No no no no no. Melisandre's shadow babies and glamors are because she's also a shadowbinder. Nothing to do with R'hllorism.

[FuriousGeorge]

I agree with you here. I am also concerned about Stannis's sword Lightbringer, which seems to be nothing more than a glamor Melisandre is using to make appear to be the Red Sword of Heroes (note that the sword has a ruby in its pommel). This bothers me because if she genuinely believed at one point that Stannis WAS Azor Ahai then why arm him with a fake weapon and deceive everyone about it? Melisandre is up to something...

To throw in my two cents on this thread, I believe Jon is Azor Ahai and that Mel is beginning to (or will eventually) see that. However, I think Moqorro IS a more talented Red Priest and is bringing the second part of the Others Solution to Westeros. Jon Snow may well slay this "Great Other" if such a thing exists, but I have no doubt that Dany's dragons will have some part to play in the fight against the Others/white walkers. Also if the Great Other doesn't come south, Dragons seem like a brilliant way to traverse the Land of Always Winter swiftly.

It must also be noted that Dany seems to have never heard about the dangers of the North, so I think it will be up to Moqorro to educate her. If he can work hard enough to convince her to take a detour up North, then props for him. Otherwise, I see Dany shrugging off tales of Others much like the other lords do, as when she finally lands, she will be too intent on reclaiming her kingdom.

Why do you think that? I mean obviously I think that as well but am I forgetting any evidence or is it just the fact that his visions seem to be clearer?

[Malcolm of House Tucker]

I think Moqorro's visions have either been much more clear or else he is better than Melisandre at interpreting them. He is so confident he risks his life to get to Mereen and to Dany. Also, he has correctly guessed the major players that will be coming together at the battle of Meereen (Victarion's fleet, Tyrion, Maester Marvyn and/or the agents the Citadel dispatched to kill the dragons). And Moqorro seems to have healed Victarion from poison and will probably use some kind of spell/power to make the Hellhorn work for Victarion.

All we have seen Melisandre do power-wise is create glamors and shadow babies, the latter of which is because she learned to be a shadow-binder in Asshai. She is good at predicting harm to her own person, but in regards to most of her other visions, she has erred in reading them correctly. I am also confused at her belief that the "towers falling into the sea" means that East Watch-by-the-Sea will be attacked. I believe those towers are actually the city of Meereen falling due to the attack by the Ironborn & Company. Wouldn't Melisandre be absolutely positive if it was the East Watch towers? She and Stannis landed THERE when they came to the Wall and they left Selyse there before marching to Castle Black. I feel like she would recognize East Watch, having been there just a few weeks before.

[l3ol3o]

One thing that bothers me about Mel is that if she is so sure that Stannis is AA why isn't she telling her other followers. You would think she would write to some friends in the East and ask for support. You would also think that more priests would see Stannis as AA as well and head to him. Mel seems to be alone on this. In the East the Red Priests think Dany is AA. All of them are probably wrong as I think Jon is AA but it shows that their visions aren't very reliable except when it comes to themselves for the most part.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

And the strange thing about Moqorro is that it seems he has seen Jon and Aegon too, given what he tells Tyrion about seeing dragons "old and young, true and false, bright and dark."

That is a very interesting analysis - the "true and false" part is very specific and may further allude to the possibility that there are two other potential dragons on the loose, one of whom may very well be false. It is also consistent with the "beware of the mummer's dragon" and "slayer of lies" theory - thus, lending some support to the theory that there is a pretender at large.

To throw in my two cents on this thread, I believe Jon is Azor Ahai and that Mel is beginning to (or will eventually) see that. However, I think Moqorro IS a more talented Red Priest and is bringing the second part of the Others Solution to Westeros. Jon Snow may well slay this "Great Other" if such a thing exists, but I have no doubt that Dany's dragons will have some part to play in the fight against the Others/white walkers. Also if the Great Other doesn't come south, Dragons seem like a brilliant way to traverse the Land of Always Winter swiftly.

It must also be noted that Dany seems to have never heard about the dangers of the North, so I think it will be up to Moqorro to educate her. If he can work hard enough to convince her to take a detour up North, then props for him.

I agree with all of this. I too think that Jon is AA - and that Mel is beginning to see it in her fires.

I'm undecided as to whether she's a poorer interpreter of fires than Moqorro, or whether he is just more confident at assessing them. At face value however, it does look like he is the more talented of the two.

However, Mel is not without her strengths - having produced a shadow-child, been able to change the appearance of a man, and she is correct when warning Jon of "daggers in the dark", so could it be that her foreshadowing may be improving?

What we may consider is that Melissandre has constantly been looking for AA in her fires - almost to the point of obsession - and it may be that she has so fervently persuaded herself that Stannis is AA, that she might actually have neglected to heed the clues that her fires were presenting to her.

Thus, her error may not be due to a lack of ability to interpret her fires correctly inasmuch as it might actually be due to an ignorance or an unwillingness to interpret them correctly out of a persistent belief that Stannis is AA (Remember she says that she asks for a glimpse of AA and her fires show her only Snow).

On the other hand, I haven't been able to spot any evidence to indicate that Moqorro believes that Dany is AA - his goal may very well simply consist of just getting her to Westeros, where she and her dragons may have a very important role to play in defeating the others. As Quaithe has also told her, she must first go North if she is to go South.

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

It's hard and very interpretive to do readings. It shows you a bunch of random crap and you have to try to put it together, some are clear but most are not. It might have to do with where you are because visions seem to be stronger in Essos

[franko99]

Moqorro waiting in the sea had to be SPOT ON accurate to work. I don't think we've seen that precision from Mel.

Remember the leeches? They were pretty specific and accurate.

I think the leeches (or actually 3 kings dying) is just as accurate as a vision can be, also Mel knew EXACTLY when Davos will return to Dragonstone, to try to kill her. I think that's just as impresive as Moqorro seeing Vic.

Poor dear, you are keeping scores. Well, let me tell you, you`ll need more than wiki. Wiki is the most unreliable source because anyone with keyboard can write on it. So, if someone thinks Moqorro`s visions are clearer, and his posts it on wiki, that doesn`t mean it`s true.

Melisandre had absolute faith in her visions, all the way until we had her POV. Who can tell he was completely right about everything or that he is more reliable than Melisandre. Also, never forget that Wall can pretty much surpress her powers due to being build by First Men.

And, for the end, about score, you`ll need a lot of victories to catch up with me.

Easy dude, this isn't a pissing contest (at least not yet XD)

We'll have to wait and see, we don't have a POV from Moq, and we haven't seen much of him to really says he's 100% accurate. For all we know he may think Victarion is AAR :dunno:

[ejhawman]

Mel is accurate in seeing, but I lost some respect for her in her POV chapter, seeing her being strangely obtuse in interpreting. She isn't as smart as she thinks she is.

Someone who has the ability to see visions of people, places, and events they have never sen before should be able to do more than just write down what they see; they should learn to draw, so that they can transcribe their visions. Can you imagine if Mel showed Jon a set of charcoal sketches and asked "Do you recognize any of these people?" Jon would say "The boy-wolf looks like my brother Bran. The girl on the dying horse I have never seen before, nor this one you say Ramsey is marrying..."

Of course, that would shortcut too much of the story. Sluggish information flow is how these fantasy worlds work...

[I know I know]

More to the point, besides Mel doing her "looking for AA, seeing only Snow" thing (wherein some of us opine that she's being obtuse) have we ever seen her actually be wrong?

The only instance I can think of, I'm not clear on: her advice to Stannis to assault Kings Landing.

Did she prophesize that he would win? Was she "wrong", or was she being a douche?

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

More to the point, besides Mel doing her "looking for AA, seeing only Snow" thing (wherein some of us opine that she's being obtuse) have we ever seen her actually be wrong?

The only instance I can think of, I'm not clear on: her advice to Stannis to assault Kings Landing.

Did she prophesize that he would win? Was she "wrong", or was she being a douche?

You could say she assumed her vision of Alys Karstark was Arya, and she was wrong, or she knew she was wrong, lied to Jon Snow about it, but there is no logic in that, as she boldy proclaims it to be Arya. It wouldn't serve her purpose to knowingly lie.

So, therefore, she got that wrong.

[I know I know]

You could say she assumed her vision of Alys Karstark was Arya, and she was wrong, or she knew she was wrong, lied to Jon Snow about it, but there is no logic in that, as she boldy proclaims it to be Arya. It wouldn't serve her purpose to knowingly lie.

So, therefore, she got that wrong.

Good example. It's a lot like Jojen seeing Bran and Rickon getting their faces skinned off by "Reek".

[fantasmas]

So far Moqorro's visions have proven to be quite accurate, but we haven't known his character for very long. Perhaps he will make a mistake as the series go along.

Or perhaps he's exceptionally gifted.