Ice and Fire animal project II: Lions

[Mladen]

Brilliant, brilliant post. As I've been frequenting this board more and more, I'm starting to view you as one of the best board members, Mladen, and stuff like this only cements that feeling.

Any ideas on the Reyne's taking up a reversed Red Lion (two tailed at that) on a Gold Field? Also, I am sincerely wondering if you plan on placing any significance on a Lion's barbed penis? Because, you know, I take a rather odd joy in reading potentially absurd goodies.

Thank you, Strongest of all Belwas. It`s very kind of you to say that. I am really honored and flattered by your assessment.

As for Reynes, you`ll have to wait next essay and those that follow. I`ll mention them several times, especially in heraldry essay. As for barbed penis, it`s anatomical, and I mentioned it in 3rd essay about lion`s anatomy. There are some interesting parallels I made :)

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Thank you, Strongest of all Belwas. It`s very kind of you to say that. I am really honored and flattered by your assessment.

As for Reynes, you`ll have to wait next essay and those that follow. I`ll mention them several times, especially in heraldry essay. As for barbed penis, it`s anatomical, and I mentioned it in 3rd essay about lion`s anatomy. There are some interesting parallels I made :)

Oh god, these parallels should be THOROUGHLY entertaining, haha.

[Frey Pentos]

Maybe I have. Perhaps you would like to give me example where exactly have I overanalyzed symbolism of lions.

I suspect GRRM mainly used the Lion sigil for the Lannisters because the Westerlands are supposed to be like England, rather than in a conscious attempt to reinvent the depiction of Lions in literature. You list the examples of Lion symbolism in history very efficiently but the comparisons to ASOIF seem tenuous and a bit forced.

[Mladen]

I suspect GRRM mainly used the Lion sigil for the Lannisters because the Westerlands are supposed to be like England, rather than in a conscious attempt to reinvent the depiction of Lions in literature. You list the examples of Lion symbolism in history very efficiently but the comparisons to ASOIF seem tenuous and a bit forced.

Entire Westeros is supposed to be like meieval England in time of War of Roses. As for Lion symbolism in his work, we have more than enough parallels to make regarding it. If you think that GRRM`s work is that one-dimensional, you are completely worng. Martin excells in history, mythology and literature, and every page of ASOIAF and symbolism in it proves it. Whether we talk about wolves, lion, or even clothes, food or architecture, Martin is master of the Game, playing with symbols and changing its meaning

Tenuous and bit forced? Yet again, you criticize my work without a single proof. Please, again, if you want to do that, you are more than free, but you`ll have to give me example. This kind of conversation isn`t productive, and I won`t stipulate on defending my work, when you don`t even know what you are criticizing. Give me example of my overanalysis and then we can talk. Otherwise, you are being plainly rude.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Great work again, and a good idea to have one essay per week, so there can be more focus in each aspect.

I particularly liked the Aesop' fables reference. The "ass in the Lion`s skin" is totally Cersei and the "Lion in love" is not only Tyrion, but Tywin's father as well. Tywin's mistrust of love is well documented and certainly not random.

Reading some more about Aesop, I found something that I thought it was interesting. The myth of Aesop's life, as narrated in The Aesop Romance, has a few intriguing similarities with one of our lions. Aesop was "of loathsome aspect... potbellied, misshapen of head, snub-nosed, swarthy, dwarfish, bandy-legged, short-armed, squint-eyed, liver-lipped - a portentous monstrosity".

He was granted by the godess Isis a gift for clever storytelling, which he uses alternately to assist and confound his master, Xanthus, embarrassing the philosopher in front of his students and even sleeping with his wife. After interpreting a portent for the people of Samos, Aesop is given his freedom and acts as an emissary between the Samians and King Croesus. ... The story ends with Aesop's journey to Delphi, where he angers the citizens by telling insulting fables, is sentenced to death and, after cursing the people of Delphi, is forced to jump to his death. (from Wikipedia)

According to the myth, Aesop's mouth was his glory but also caused him troubles and in the end it got him killed, much like our little lion fears.

I wonder if it is intentional. If so, Tyrion is both a tale-teller and a hero (not always in the positive sense) of his own tales. Of course, this is true for all POVs but more so for Tyrion, as he is the one who reflects more, and more explicitly, on the situations and people that surround him.

Also, I think that the main reason the lion is seen as a symbol of royalty in most ancient cultures, is the lion's royal appearence and especially its impressive mane. A lot can be said about the famous Lannister mane, but I guess it will be a part of the Anatomy essay.

Congrats again for the post. Keep up the good work!

[Mladen]

Great work again, and a good idea to have one essay per week, so there can be more focus in each aspect.

I particularly liked the Aesop' fables reference. The "ass in the Lion`s skin" is totally Cersei and the "Lion in love" is not only Tyrion, but Tywin's father as well. Tywin's mistrust of love is well documented and certainly not random.

Reading some more about Aesop, I found something that I thought it was interesting. The myth of Aesop's life, as narrated in The Aesop Romance, has a few intriguing similarities with one of our lions. Aesop was "of loathsome aspect... potbellied, misshapen of head, snub-nosed, swarthy, dwarfish, bandy-legged, short-armed, squint-eyed, liver-lipped - a portentous monstrosity".

He was granted by the godess Isis a gift for clever storytelling, which he uses alternately to assist and confound his master, Xanthus, embarrassing the philosopher in front of his students and even sleeping with his wife. After interpreting a portent for the people of Samos, Aesop is given his freedom and acts as an emissary between the Samians and King Croesus. ... The story ends with Aesop's journey to Delphi, where he angers the citizens by telling insulting fables, is sentenced to death and, after cursing the people of Delphi, is forced to jump to his death. (from Wikipedia)

According to the myth, Aesop's mouth was his glory but also caused him troubles and in the end it got him killed, much like our little lion fears.

I wonder if it is intentional. If so, Tyrion is both a tale-teller and a hero (not always in the positive sense) of his own tales. Of course, this is true for all POVs but more so for Tyrion, as he is the one who reflects more, and more explicitly, on the situations and people that surround him.

Also, I think that the main reason the lion is seen as a symbol of royalty in most ancient cultures, is the lion's royal appearence and especially its impressive mane. A lot can be said about the famous Lannister mane, but I guess it will be a part of the Anatomy essay.

Congrats again for the post. Keep up the good work!

Thank you, Shadowcat. It`s really kind of you to say that

Wow, I have read the story about Aesop, but I though somehow it would be too much. Thank you for showing me how wrong I was. Yes, it`s a great parallel especially if we remember what Tyrion said abouth his mouth that will lead him to his death at PW. Also, Tyrion`s cunning behavior is both blessing and a curse, given people can see it as smartness, like Varys, or perverse cunnings, like Cersei, Tywin and rest of the court. I imagine whether if Dany lands in the Vale, he will be forced to jump to his death. Possible foreshadowing? :)

As for being royal symbol, it continues throughout centuries and you`ll see parallels in medieval worlds, especially in Englad. As for mame, yes, unfortunately, I wouldn`t like to jump ahead, so you`ll have to wait and read it.

Thanks again, friend for kind words,. I really appreciate your insight.

[purrl1]

Mladen,

You posts always give me much food for thought, and I look forward to them!

With this discussion of lions in ancient cultures, I can't help but think of the Lion Gate of Mycenae. Except, IIRC, that pair of statues are actually *lionesses*! And King Agamemnon of Mycenae was murdered by his queen, Clytemnestra, who was having an affair with Aegisthus (who was her cousin??). Sounds a bit like Robert Baratheon & his lioness?

I know, that's a bit far-fetched. Sorry.

[Mladen]

When Ned comes to KL, the doors to the royal court are flanked by a pair of sphinxes with human heads and lions' bodies; representing Cersei's power and influence at court. The sphinx symbolized the "terrible mother": the monster of death bringing extreme bad luck, and the perversion of the intellect, womanhood, and power, and Cersei fits all descriptions.

Mladen,

You posts always give me much food for thought, and I look forward to them!

With this discussion of lions in ancient cultures, I can't help but think of the Lion Gate of Mycenae. Except, IIRC, that pair of statues are actually *lionesses*! And King Agamemnon of Mycenae was murdered by his queen, Clytemnestra, who was having an affair with Aegisthus (who was her cousin??). Sounds a bit like Robert Baratheon & his lioness?

I know, that's a bit far-fetched. Sorry.

Purrl1, thanks for compliments.

Your parallel isn`t that far-fetched when you add to it Fire Eater`s wonderful observation I have to admit I missed. So, the story of Agamemnon and Clytemnestra can be used as parallel between Robert and Cersei. And we also have sphinxes and lionesses as guardians of court of KL and Mycenae. Nice observation. Not at all far-fetched.

[AegonSnow]

There were actually lions in Britain in prehistory... which probably inspired the lions as a big symbol of Britain, even though they went extinct.

[Frey Pentos]

There were actually lions in Britain in prehistory... which probably inspired the lions as a big symbol of Britain, even though they went extinct.

The Lion became associated with the English royal family after the marriage of Eleanor of Aquitaine to Henry II. The Lion derived from the coat of arms of the Duchy of Aquitaine - Eleanor's family.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

The Lion became associated with the English royal family after the marriage of Eleanor of Aquitaine to Henry II. The Lion derived from the coat of arms of the Duchy of Aquitaine - Eleanor's family.

Explain the tenuity.

[Blisscraft]

From the very first lion figurine to its depictions in ancient civilizations of the world, lion had very distinguished place. As deity, benevolent symbol of strength and nobility, courage and pride, lion had been respected as not only the King of Beasts, than as also something mystical and powerful. And the symbol remained throughout the history, evolving as civilization adding the new imagery to lion.

Martin`s lion isn`t benevolent figure like the lion usually is. It surpasses the title of King of beasts and wild predator, and is transformed into something much deadlier and dangerous. Martin humanized lion, and has given him the human brain and imagination. And with lion`s strength and human intellect, the Lannister beast is practically indestructible, and it would take all hero`s strength to destroy it, just like all the myths of malevolent lion taught us.

Love the reference to transformation. As you so eloquently observe, in general, the lion's reputation preceeds it. Martin begins with this reputation and transforms it within its recongnizable characteristics. Lions are wild animals in addition to being the "king of beasts." Martin focuses upon this wildness. The Lannisters remain untamed as a family. The "normal" rules do not apply to them. It is not because the family members think they are above the rules so much as it is that they are simply too wild to obey. Tywin's requires obediance, but with wildness utterly destroys the Reynes of Castemere and Rob Stark and his mother and men. It's the aspect of overkill that shows wildness. Jaime and Cersei have a wild passion for each other that goes beyond normal boundaries. Tyrion is wildly self destructive. In addition to hs drinking and eating and whoring, slaying his father an expression of a wildly repressed self loathing.

[Mladen]

Love the reference to transformation. As you so eloquently observe, in general, the lion's reputation preceeds it. Martin begins with this reputation and transforms it within its recongnizable characteristics. Lions are wild animals in addition to being the "king of beasts." Martin focuses upon this wildness. The Lannisters remain untamed as a family. The "normal" rules do not apply to them. It is not because the family members think they are above the rules so much as it is that they are simply too wild to obey. Tywin's requires obediance, but with wildness utterly destroys the Reynes of Castemere and Rob Stark and his mother and men. It's the aspect of overkill that shows wildness. Jaime and Cersei have a wild passion for each other that goes beyond normal boundaries. Tyrion is wildly self destructive. In addition to hs drinking and eating and whoring, slaying his father an expression of a wildly repressed self loathing.

Thanks, Blisscraft

I really like how you connected it with Lannisters being untamed. More than that, Martin showed them first in all their glory. Cersei was the most beautiful woman alive, Jaime looked royally, Tyrion casted a large shadow. They were the ideal of pride, glory and nobility. But, then the deconstruction began and Martin led us through Lannister mud and gold and showed us that nothing is what it seems to be, and that`s something Martin used quite numerous time.

[The Sleeper]

I believe the full scope of the analogy Martin makes with the Lannisters (the main line at least) and their sigil becomes glaringly apparent when you contrast the image they have in mythology with the behaviour of actual lions.

[Mladen]

I believe the full scope of the analogy Martin makes with the Lannisters (the main line at least) and their sigil becomes glaringly apparent when you contrast the image they have in mythology with the behaviour of actual lions.

You are right, but I had to divide the project so people could read it. Behavior of actual lions will be topic of 4th essay, so I imagine by that time, you`ll have wider picture of what I wanted to say.

[The Sleeper]

You are right, but I had to divide the project so people could read it. Behavior of actual lions will be topic of 4th essay, so I imagine by that time, you`ll have wider picture of what I wanted to say.

I know, hence the short comment.

[Manderlay]

The Indian Emblem has four Asiatic Lions standing back to back (3 visible, fourth hidden from view), which was adopted from the Lion Capital of Ashoka at Sarnath, they symbolize power, courage, pride and confidence.

The Pillars of Ashoka are a series of columns erected by the Mayuran King Ashoka, during 3rd Century BC and many (the still surviving pillars) have lion capital, single or multiple. The lion is depicted significantly in Indian culture as its on the Indian Emblem.

[Morienthar]

Continuing on Manderlay's post,There is Narasimha whos is a Chimeric God with the Body of a man and the head of a Lion.

There's also the Yali http://www.tarangart...nd_Yali_871.jpg which is a lion like creature said to be stronger than tigers and elephants too.

There's the Lion like Dakini.

It's also a mount for several female deity's.

That's pretty much everything I know.

[Mladen]

The Indian Emblem has four Asiatic Lions standing back to back (3 visible, fourth hidden from view), which was adopted from the Lion Capital of Ashoka at Sarnath, they symbolize power, courage, pride and confidence.

The Pillars of Ashoka are a series of columns erected by the Mayuran King Ashoka, during 3rd Century BC and many (the still surviving pillars) have lion capital, single or multiple. The lion is depicted significantly in Indian culture as its on the Indian Emblem.

Continuing on Manderlay's post,There is Narasimha whos is a Chimeric God with the Body of a man and the head of a Lion.

There's also the Yali http://www.tarangart...nd_Yali_871.jpg which is a lion like creature said to be stronger than tigers and elephants too.

There's the Lion like Dakini.

It's also a mount for several female deity's.

That's pretty much everything I know.

I mention Lion Capital of Sarnath in my essay of medieval lion refferences as one of the main symbols that shape positive image of lions in art and literature.

Also, Morienthar, your knowledge about Hindu mythology and art is really great and I would like to hear more about it. Thank you for all those great references, both to you and Manderlay.

As for medieval and modern lion essay, it will be posted somewhere during next week, since I had some new datas I would like to include in. It`s also big essay, so I hope you`ll understand.

[Blisscraft]

Thanks, Blisscraft

I really like how you connected it with Lannisters being untamed. More than that, Martin showed them first in all their glory. Cersei was the most beautiful woman alive, Jaime looked royally, Tyrion casted a large shadow. They were the ideal of pride, glory and nobility. But, then the deconstruction began and Martin led us through Lannister mud and gold and showed us that nothing is what it seems to be, and that`s something Martin used quite numerous time.

I agree. Also, one particular event strikes me as how the Lannisters are wild and not to be tamed is with Cersei and her capture by the High Septon and her walk of shame. Even without her "mane," she remains a wild thing. Although she puts on quite a show later to Kevin, she won't eat from anyone's hand. So to speak.

ETA: The Lannisters always remind me of the DH Lawrence poem, Self Pity, (1923) "I never saw a wild thing/ Sorry for itself." No to say they don't indulge in self pity on ocasion. They do. It just doesn't seem to take long for them to get angry and strike out wildly.