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Surprising Lannister ancestor?


Maia

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Hm... For some reason I thought that Shiera's objection to marriage was due to her unwillingness to risk her life in childbirth. Not sure were I have this from, though. But is there any point in refusing to marry Bloodraven, yet bearing his bastard? It just doesn't make sense, IMHO.

Good idea about a Blackwood. Particularly, since current Lord Blackwood is also called "Tytos". It would be a bit contrived that he and Jaime didn't mention the supposed relationship, but OTOH, Jaime is probably considered so far beyond the pale of normal Westerosi morality, that it may not have seemed worth it to the Blackwoods.

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Hm... For some reason I thought that Shiera's objection to marriage was due to her unwillingness to risk her life in childbirth. Not sure were I have this from, though. But is there any point in refusing to marry Bloodraven, yet bearing his bastard? It just doesn't make sense, IMHO.

Good idea about a Blackwood. Particularly, since current Lord Blackwood is also called "Tytos". It would be a bit contrived that he and Jaime didn't mention the supposed relationship, but OTOH, Jaime is probably considered so far beyond the pale of normal Westerosi morality, that it may not have seemed worth it to the Blackwoods.

I think Shiera's objection to marriage was more about toying with Bloodraven. She liked to tease him and have other men too. I don't think she is the type to want to be committed to anyone.

How would the Lannisters being related to a Blackwood be surprising? Considering the fuss they put up when Genna was supposed to marry the 2nd son of Lord Frey, I don't see the bannermen tolerating a marriage to a Blackwood.

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I think Shiera's objection to marriage was more about toying with Bloodraven. She liked to tease him and have other men too. I don't think she is the type to want to be committed to anyone.

Bearing him a child would be commitment and condemning that child to life of a bastard, when she could have easily ensured his/her legitimacy would have been rather callous. I dunno.

Considering the fuss they put up when Genna was supposed to marry the 2nd son of Lord Frey, I don't see the bannermen tolerating a marriage to a Blackwood.

Why? It is completely normal to marry daughters of second-tier lords. The only daughter of a lord paramount, OTOH, should have been married to a powerful lord or a heir of one, not a second son, whose brother already had children of his own. Not to mention that Freys are being looked down upon for being "new money".

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How would the Lannisters being related to a Blackwood be surprising? Considering the fuss they put up when Genna was supposed to marry the 2nd son of Lord Frey, I don't see the bannermen tolerating a marriage to a Blackwood.

I think that it is not expected, I suppose. The Blackwoods are a weird family. Former kings, live south of the Neck but still worship the Old Gods, the feud with the Brackens, Bloodraven was one of them.

I think that it is plausible that Joanna's father married a Lady Blackwood. If I recall corectly, Tytos was a third son, and this was why he agreed to give Genna to Emmon. I think that we can assume that Tytos' older brothers died young and childless, and thus he became a heir. But he must have a younger brother as well, a fourth son in that case, who later became the father of Joanna and Stafford Lannister, wasn't Joanna Tywin's first cousin or was she a more distant relative?

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Bearing him a child would be commitment and condemning that child to life of a bastard, when she could have easily ensured his/her legitimacy would have been rather callous. I dunno.

I doubt it too, but I was just saying I don't think it was fear of bearing a child, which stopped her from marrying bloodraven.

Why? It is completely normal to marry daughters of second-tier lords. The only daughter of a lord paramount, OTOH, should have been married to a powerful lord or a heir of one, not a second son, whose brother already had children of his own. Not to mention that Freys are being looked down upon for being "new money".

Yes daughters of second tier houses within the Westerlands. If you are going to look at third tier Lords, I don't see the Blackwoods are even second tier Lords, then you should look closer to home.

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I think that it is not expected, I suppose. The Blackwoods are a weird family. Former kings, live south of the Neck but still worship the Old Gods, the feud with the Brackens, Bloodraven was one of them.

I think that it is plausible that Joanna's father married a Lady Blackwood. If I recall corectly, Tytos was a third son, and this was why he agreed to give Genna to Emmon. I think that we can assume that Tytos' older brothers died young and childless, and thus he became a heir. But he must have a younger brother as well, a fourth son in that case, who later became the father of Joanna and Stafford Lannister, wasn't Joanna Tywin's first cousin or was she a more distant relative?

I am not sure if we are told if Joanna was his first cousin or not. Cersei and Jaime just call Damion their cousin too and it seems unlikely he is a first cousin. Again there would be no surprise in Joanna's father marrying a Blackwood.

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I think that it is not expected, I suppose. The Blackwoods are a weird family. Former kings, live south of the Neck but still worship the Old Gods, the feud with the Brackens, Bloodraven was one of them.

I think that it is plausible that Joanna's father married a Lady Blackwood. If I recall corectly, Tytos was a third son, and this was why he agreed to give Genna to Emmon. I think that we can assume that Tytos' older brothers died young and childless, and thus he became a heir. But he must have a younger brother as well, a fourth son in that case, who later became the father of Joanna and Stafford Lannister, wasn't Joanna Tywin's first cousin or was she a more distant relative?

For what it's worth, in this interview George was asked why Tywin married his first cousin. George doesn't correct him, although it's entirely possible he just didn't consider it important enough or couldn't remember himself. I don't think the exact relation is mentioned in the books.

Yes daughters of second tier houses within the Westerlands. If you are going to look at third tier Lords, I don't see the Blackwoods are even second tier Lords, then you should look closer to home.

I don't think there would be anything improper in a third born son of Lord Lannister marrying a daughter of a lesser noble house from the Riverlands. Perhaps there simply wasn't any suitable girl in the Westerlands, or Tytos didn't like any of them, or for all we know, Lord Lannister and Lord Blackwood might have been on friendly terms.

I haven't got impression that the Blackwoods are looked down upon or something along tose lines. Sure, they keep a different religion, but Westeros seems (for now) very tolerant. I confess my knowledge of their military strength and wealth is not great, but nobody ever noted that they would be impoverished or weak or suffered from bad reputation. They are also old blood.

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I don't think there would be anything improper in a third born son of Lord Lannister marrying a daughter of a lesser noble house from the Riverlands. Perhaps there simply wasn't any suitable girl in the Westerlands, or Tytos didn't like any of them, or for all we know, Lord Lannister and Lord Blackwood might have been on friendly terms.

I haven't got impression that the Blackwoods are looked down upon or something along tose lines. Sure, they keep a different religion, but Westeros seems (for now) very tolerant. I confess my knowledge of their military strength and health is not great, but nobody ever noted that they would be impoverished or weak or suffred from bad reputation. They are also old blood.

It depends if Tytos was a third son at the time of the betrothal or not. If he was then it fits, but again where is the surprise in this? Nobody is going to be particularly bothered to find out the Lannisters are related to the Blackwoods. It has to be either someone very low or a family that plays a prominent role.

EDIT

Though Tywin seemed to get better marriages for his nephews, however Tywin probably did a lot better than most Lords could do.

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If you are going to look at third tier Lords, I don't see the Blackwoods are even second tier Lords, then you should look closer to home.

? Blackwoods are very much second-tier lords of the Riverlands, equals to Brackens and Mallisters, former kings, etc.

I am not sure if we are told if Joanna was his first cousin or not. Cersei and Jaime just call Damion their cousin too and it seems unlikely he is a first cousin.

Pretty sure that it was mentioned in the books that she was a first cousin. In Westeros, as used to be the case in most cultures iRL, there is not stigma associated with marrying a first cousin. And really, it isn't significantly more dangerous for the offspring if you don't make a habit of it.

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? Blackwoods are very much second-tier lords of the Riverlands, equals to Brackens and Mallisters, former kings, etc.

Second tier Lords in the Riverlands does not make them second tier Lords in general. Consider that Houses like the Florents, the Hightowers, the Reynes, the Yronwoods, the Boltons and the Redwynes are about. All richer and seemingly more powerful.

Pretty sure that it was mentioned in the books that she was a first cousin. In Westeros, as used to be the case in most cultures iRL, there is not stigma associated with marrying a first cousin. And really, it isn't significantly more dangerous for the offspring if you don't make a habit of it.

I know Queen Victoria famously married Prince Albert and it is still legal in England. I was just wondering if it had been officially said. Rhaegar does call Robert his cousin too and they are not first cousins but due to the incest 2nd cousins through both of Rhaegar's parents.

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Maybe Tywin's mother was a Loraq of Meereen. ;) Or simply someone from the overseas.

That would might be surprising. I doubt any noble house in Westeros would shock me, though. At least any house where it wouldn't stretch belief that it wasn't mentioned so far (let's say, if it came to light that Tywin's mother was a Bolton) wouldn't.

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Maybe Tywin's mother was a Loraq of Meereen. ;) Or simply someone from the overseas.

That would might be surprising. I doubt any noble house in Westeros would shock me, though. At least any house where it wouldn't stretch belief that it wasn't mentioned so far (let's say, if it came to light that Tywin's mother was a Bolton) wouldn't.

Really I think Tywin being related to the Starks, Boltons, Targaryen or Blackfyres would be quite surprising to me.

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Really I think Tywin being related to the Starks, Boltons, Targaryen or Blackfyres would be quite surprising to me.

Yes, but with the exception of the Blackfyres, it would seem as a bit of a plothole that it was never mentioned by the characters in the novel. Wouldn't Ned or Catelyn give a single thought to the fact that Tywin and his offspring are their kin? Would Robb trust Roose Bolton with half of his army if the Lannisters were his relatives? Wouldn't Jaime, Cersei, Stannis, Ned, the High Septon, anybody bring up that the twins have immediate Targaryen ancestry due to the incest thing? Would Aerys reject the Rhaegar/Cersai match if Cersai had more Targaryen blood than Elia?

About the Blackfyres, I think that Aerys wouldn't let a known half-Blackfyre become his Hand.

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Yes, but with the exception of the Blackfyres, it would seem as a bit of a plothole that it was never mentioned by the characters in the novel. Wouldn't Ned or Catelyn give a single thought to the fact that Tywin and his offspring are their kin? Would Robb trust Roose Bolton with half of his army if the Lannisters were his relatives? Wouldn't Jaime, Cersei, Stannis, Ned, the High Septon, anybody bring up that the twins have immediate Targaryen ancestry due to the incest thing? Would Aerys reject the Rhaegar/Cersai match if Cersai had more Targaryen blood than Elia?

About the Blackfyres, I think that Aerys wouldn't let a known half-Blackfyre become his Hand.

That's why I said the Blackfyre ancestor makes the most sense. I am not sure Aerys would initially reject Tywin, because of his Blackfyre ancestry. If anything it may have made the two men closer. It was only later that Aerys started to become jealous. If Egg really did want to unite the two lines then it could explain a lot. The reason Tywin was sure Aerys would accept cersei, their friendship, Aerys lust for Joanna and then why he was so jealous and worried about Aerys. Even up to the Trident he still viewed Tywin as the biggest threat.

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That's why I said the Blackfyre ancestor makes the most sense. I am not sure Aerys would initially reject Tywin, because of his Blackfyre ancestry. If anything it may have made the two men closer. It was only later that Aerys started to become jealous. If Egg really did want to unite the two lines then it could explain a lot. The reason Tywin was sure Aerys would accept cersei, their friendship, Aerys lust for Joanna and then why he was so jealous and worried about Aerys. Even up to the Trident he still viewed Tywin as the biggest threat.

Egg wanted to unite them?

If he meant to, I suppose he would want them to marry back into the Targ line, but not into to the wealthiest house of Westeros to which the Targaryens had no connections at the time, as far as we know. It would be giving the Targs' bitter rivals a perfect tool to try another rebellion. Not a clever step at all.

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Egg wanted to unite them?

If he meant to, I suppose he would want them to marry back into the Targ line, but not into to the wealthiest house of Westeros to which the Targaryens had no connections at the time, as far as we know. It would be giving the Targs' bitter rivals a perfect tool to try another rebellion. Not a clever step at all.

Well Egg wanted his sons to marry somebody, but they rejected them, married for love and the realm bled. Considering the Ninepenny wars happened it may have been Blackfyre descendants he intended for them to marry. Though this is just speculation. The marrying into the royal family could be precisely why a young Aerys was so close to Tywin and then later on feared him more than even Robert Baratheon.

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Well Egg wanted his sons to marry somebody, but they rejected them, married for love and the realm bled. Considering the Ninepenny wars happened it may have been Blackfyre descendants he intended for them to marry. Though this is just speculation. The marrying into the royal family could be precisely why a young Aerys was so close to Tywin and then later on feared him more than even Robert Baratheon.

I simply don't understand why Aerys would be close to Tywin if Tywin's mother came from the line which several times tried to take the throne from his own, quite recently at that.

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I simply don't understand why Aerys would be close to Tywin if Tywin's mother came from the line which several times tried to take the throne from his own, quite recently at that.

Probably, because there seemed to be some desire to unite the two lines. Egg has grown up all his life hearing how heroic men fought on both sides of the war. He does send Steffon off to fine a worthy bride for Rhaegar. It is just a theory, but he may have been looking for a Blackfyre descendant available in the Free Cities. It seems unlikely Lys did not have one Valyrian looking noble woman. He seemed after something more specific. Nor do I think Tywin is the time of man to tell Cersei something he had not already confirmed with Aerys. It may not have been official, but it seems like an agreement had been made between Aerys and Tywin to wed Cersei and Rhaegar.

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Probably, because there seemed to be some desire to unite the two lines. Egg has grown up all his life hearing how heroic men fought on both sides of the war. He does send Steffon off to fine a worthy bride for Rhaegar. It is just a theory, but he may have been looking for a Blackfyre descendant available in the Free Cities. It seems unlikely Lys did not have one Valyrian looking noble woman. He seemed after something more specific. Nor do I think Tywin is the time of man to tell Cersei something he had not already confirmed with Aerys. It may not have been official, but it seems like an agreement had been made between Aerys and Tywin to wed Cersei and Rhaegar.

There were any signs of such a desire? It may be my faulty memory, but I don't remember anything of this kind.

It was Aerys, the blood purist, who sent Steffon to Essos. Also, why to send an envoy to Essos when there's already a Blackfyre descendant, one of the most beautiful ladies around, coming from a rich and powerful family?

I think it was Tywin's ego what led him to think that Aerys will certainly agree with the match - after all, why would he not? Cersei was of the highest birth (even without Targaryen/Blackfyre ancestry), very beautiful, young, came from the richest family on the continent, her father was very capable and could be a great help to Aerys and later to Rhaegar. Any sane monarch would be thrilled. Alas, Aerys wasn't right in the head.

It would unnecessarily overcomplicate things - we already know why Aerys felt jealous of Tywin. And as I said before, why would the Targs ever allow for the Lannister/Blackfyre marriage to happen? Would the Lannisters even be interested in such a match? It appears that except the first one, the Blackfyre rebellions hadn't much chance of success.

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