Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[The Lady Lannister]

The Bloodraven connection would explain Jaime's weirwood dreams / messages. Jaime does not believe in the Old (or probably any) Gods, and there is no reason for them to communicate with him.

[mrunderhill]

There were any signs of such a desire? It may be my faulty memory, but I don't remember anything of this kind.

It was Aerys, the blood purist, who sent Steffon to Essos. Also, why to send an envoy to Essos when there's already a Blackfyre descendant, one of the most beautiful ladies around, coming from a rich and powerful family?

I think it was Tywin's ego what led him to think that Aerys will certainly agree with the match - after all, why would he not? Cersei was of the highest birth (even without Targaryen/Blackfyre ancestry), very beautiful, young, came from the richest family on the continent, her father was very capable and could be a great help to Aerys and later to Rhaegar. Any sane monarch would be thrilled. Alas, Aerys wasn't right in the head.

No real signs, just a theory. Aerys the Blood purist also was lusting after Joanna from when he was a teenager. I think there is more at play than just Tywin's ego. Tywin and Aerys seemed to have been friendly enough when they were younger. Aerys chose Tywin to be his hand. The man Aerys feared most was Tywin and that is why he wanted Jaime at his side at all times.

Even without Blackfyre ancestry, Cersei was still the most eligible bride, but Elia did have Targaryen blood going less than a hundred years ago. I don't see Aerys being so confident without strong hints from Aerys.

It would unnecessarily overcomplicate things - we already know why Aerys felt jealous of Tywin. And as I said before, why would the Targs ever allow for the Lannister/Blackfyre marriage to happen? Would the Lannisters even be interested in such a match? It appears that except the first one, the Blackfyre rebellions hadn't much chance of success.

Not sure how it would over complicate matters. The Lannisters used to make their grand tour of the Free cities. A Lannister heir on his trips could quite easily have fallen for a Blackfyre, before realising the full intent of what he did.

Of course these are just theories and there is little proof to support them, apart from the quote in the thread title and the connection the Lannisters have with Targaryen qualities. We will have to wait to find out.

[protar]

Would I be right in saying that the theory is that BR is Joanna's grandfather? That could potentially work, as it might not necessarily be something people actually know about. Shierra and BR could've had a bastard daughter who married Joanna's dad. It would explain Tyrion's eyes, and Jaime's dreams.

[lojzelote]

No real signs, just a theory. Aerys the Blood purist also was lusting after Joanna from when he was a teenager. I think there is more at play than just Tywin's ego. Tywin and Aerys seemed to have been friendly enough when they were younger. Aerys chose Tywin to be his hand. The man Aerys feared most was Tywin and that is why he wanted Jaime at his side at all times.

Even without Blackfyre ancestry, Cersei was still the most eligible bride, but Elia did have Targaryen blood going less than a hundred years ago. I don't see Aerys being so confident without strong hints from Aerys.

Not sure how it would over complicate matters. The Lannisters used to make their grand tour of the Free cities. A Lannister heir on his trips could quite easily have fallen for a Blackfyre, before realising the full intent of what he did.

Of course these are just theories and there is little proof to support them, apart from the quote in the thread title and the connection the Lannisters have with Targaryen qualities. We will have to wait to find out.

I think that the bolded parts sufficiently explain your question why Tywin would be convinced that Aerys will take his offer, even disregarding Tywin's big ego. Besides that, Tywin had seen Elia when he rejected her as a bride for Jaime, partly because Elia was frail and sickly, which in Tywin's eyes must have disqualified her as a future queen, who should bear royal heirs (and really, we've heard how much trouble it caused to Elia when she eventually got this role). Except for the history of her family, not much of a catch even in other departments, at least compared to Cersei.

As for Tytos going to Essos and falling in love with a foreign lady, sure, it's possible, but I don't see how it is any better for the Lannisters than a Blackwood. Quite the opposite, actually: the Blackfyres were disgraced rebels who lost everything, while the Blackwoods were a respectable Riverlands family. I'm not saying it must have been a Blackwood, I really have no idea who it might have been, but it is much more credible, imho. If Tywin's or Joanna's mother was a Blackfyre, George has a lot of explaining to do.

[Danelle]

The Bloodraven connection would explain Jaime's weirwood dreams / messages. Jaime does not believe in the Old (or probably any) Gods, and there is no reason for them to communicate with him.

Well, I think that Jaime has a strange relationship to religion. Apparently, like the vast majority of characters from the South, he was raised to believe that there are seven gods. On the other hand, he doesn't appear to be particularly devout. He is definately not as devout as Catelyn is to the seven. I think that he identified with the Warrior and considered Cersei to be the Maiden, but this is not unusual. Ser Bonifer had too compared Rhaella with the Maiden. His weirwood dream though, full of symbolism and prophetic elements, is curious. A Blackwood or even a direct Bloodraven connection would explain a lot.

In regards to the weirwood dream and to the vision of his mother.

As far as the Blackfyres are concerned, a possible ancestry might be connected to the dream that Tyrion had about him having two heads, just like Maelys the Monstrous.

For what it's worth, in this interview George was asked why Tywin married his first cousin. George doesn't correct him, although it's entirely possible he just didn't consider it important enough or couldn't remember himself. I don't think the exact relation is mentioned in the books.

Thank you for the link.

If I recall correctly, Barristan mentions that Aerys wanted a cousin of Tywin Lannister, but without offering more details on their relation. On the other hand, House Lannister has a cadet branch in Lannisport. Joanna could have been one of them. It must be noted though that Joanna was a childhood companion of Princess Rhaella. In terms of politics this is quite an important position. Had things turned out differently, Joanna could have been Queen to King Aerys. I always wondered why Joanna was chosen for that position instead of Genna. After all Genna was the daughter of the Warden of the West and Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Genna was given to a Frey.

I think that it is possible for Joanna to be Tywin's first cousin, this would make her highborn enough to be a lady in waiting along with the future Princess of Dorne.

[Bushido]

The Bloodraven connection would explain Jaime's weirwood dreams / messages. Jaime does not believe in the Old (or probably any) Gods, and there is no reason for them to communicate with him.

This is ridiculous.

... But, just for fun - were they communicating to him, like they do with Bran? No. Were they endowing him with some kind of special power? No.

You have a man whose actions irrevocably changed the fate of nation, a troubled man whose identity is shattered; you have a magically potent remnant of what once had been a heartree, and the magic that started to flow back into the world; in general, you have religion that was born of the soil of Westeros, that's... Everywhere; why is it impossible for two of them to collide? Ghost of High Heart's visions are not filtered by religious principles, she dreams about Cat, Balon, Vargo... Your words would imply that GRRM created magic that has rules and is basically scientific, which he said many times to be a wrong approach to it.

***

On topic, the key word is Surprising, not interesting (these Targ connections are interesting, and that's it).

Besides, it's Ran who found it surprising. If someone who works closely with GRRM and knows much more than us managed to be be surprised, then this is safely out of fans'... Deductive powers. :P

[lojzelote]

If I recall correctly, Barristan mentions that Aerys wanted a cousin of Tywin Lannister, but without offering more details on their relation. On the other hand, House Lannister has a cadet branch in Lannisport. Joanna could have been one of them. It must be noted though that Joanna was a childhood companion of Princess Rhaella. In terms of politics this is quite an important position. Had things turned out differently, Joanna could have been Queen to King Aerys. I always wondered why Joanna was chosen for that position instead of Genna. After all Genna was the daughter of the Warden of the West and Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Genna was given to a Frey.

I think that it is possible for Joanna to be Tywin's first cousin, this would make her highborn enough to be a lady in waiting along with the future Princess of Dorne.

I'm not sure if the Lannisters of Lannisport would be even regarded as Tywin's cousins. I've got the impression that the two houses are pretty much separate at this point. I remember that Wyman Manderly complained he cannot trust Maester Theomore because he used to be a Lannister of Lannisport and "even claimed a relation to the Lannisters of Casterley Rock." Or something along those lines; I don't have the books with me. Maybe they're "cousins" in the same way as the current Starks and their distanced Vale cousins or the Stark branches around the White Harbour and Barrowton. Or the Karstarks. :dunno:

[mrunderhill]

I'm not sure if the Lannisters of Lannisport would be even regarded as Tywin's cousins. I've got the impression that the two houses are pretty much separate at this point. I remember that Wyman Manderly complained he cannot trust Maester Theomore because he used to be a Lannister of Lannisport and "even claimed a relation to the Lannisters of Casterley Rock." Or something along those lines; I don't have the books with me. Maybe they're "cousins" in the same way as the current Starks and their distanced Vale cousins or the Stark branches around the White Harbour and Barrowton. Or the Karstarks. :dunno:

From words that Jamie and Tyrion keep repeating it is the Lannisters from Casterly Rock that Tywin drums into the kids as family. He is completely against any Lannister from Casterly Rock fighting or hurting another one. So I don't think he would consider the Lannisters of Lannisport as part of his real family.

[Danelle]

IMaybe they're "cousins" in the same way as the current Starks and their distanced Vale cousins or the Stark branches around the White Harbour and Barrowton. Or the Karstarks. :dunno:

Good point. Wasn't Rosamund Lannister also from Lannisport? Tyrion chose her as Myrcella's companion and they have a resemblance. Lord Manderley said that

but I cannot forget that Theomore was born a Lannister of Lannisport and claims some distant kinship to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.

Most likely a distant relation. In that case it might be likely that Joanna was also a Lannister from CR.

[joluoto]

House Lannister seem to have several Cadet Branches both in Casterly Rock and in Lannisport. And more important: they have had a very good luck with them. We hear about huge divisions between the main branch and the Cadet branches for many of the other Houses, but for all we can see the Lannister Cadet branches are extremely loyal.

[J. Stargaryen]

Part of the problem with Ran telling us that there is a surprising Lannister ancestor is that we probably won't be surprised when we actually read it.

[protar]

The real problem here is that most of the potential ancestors are split into 2 groups: ancestors that really should have been mentioned at some point (e.g a commoner, one of the Great Houses.) and ancestors that aren't really surprising (e.g most noble houses). An Essosi might potentially be a surprise however doesn't Kevan ridicule the Westerlings at one point for their Essosi ancestry? Or was it just for marrying the lowborn Spicers? If it's the latter than perhaps it would make sense for no one to have mentioned it.

Just to randomly throwing this out there what about a Skaagosi? That would surprise me, and if the theories about Ned's mother being a Skaagosi are also correct, it would create a link between Stark and Lannister that could reasonably have gone unmentioned. Perhaps a Lannister got involved in the Skaagosi rebellion about a century ago and fell in love. Tywin or Joanna's grand-father perhaps?

[mrunderhill]

The real problem here is that most of the potential ancestors are split into 2 groups: ancestors that really should have been mentioned at some point (e.g a commoner, one of the Great Houses.) and ancestors that aren't really surprising (e.g most noble houses). An Essosi might potentially be a surprise however doesn't Kevan ridicule the Westerlings at one point for their Essosi ancestry? Or was it just for marrying the lowborn Spicers? If it's the latter than perhaps it would make sense for no one to have mentioned it.

Just to randomly throwing this out there what about a Skaagosi? That would surprise me, and if the theories about Ned's mother being a Skaagosi are also correct, it would create a link between Stark and Lannister that could reasonably have gone unmentioned. Perhaps a Lannister got involved in the Skaagosi rebellion about a century ago and fell in love. Tywin or Joanna's grand-father perhaps?

It is about the lowborn nature of the Spicers that upsets Kevan not that they were from Essos. A Skaagois is possbile if they play a big role, but I am leaning towards a noble Essos family as the most likely.

[lojzelote]

^

Ha ha, George could name her Talisa Maegyr, just for laughs. Nobody expects Talisa in the books!

[protar]

^

Ha ha, George could name her Talisa Maegyr, just for laughs. Nobody expects Talisa in the books!

The Maegyrs are in fact a Volantene noble family so who knows? I'd certainly get a chuckle out of it, and George could write a short story about her, in which she isn't a cliche. ;)

ETA: That said, I'm still sticking with my Skaagosi crackpot, I wouldn't be that surprised with an Essosi, and I want my ironic Stark link.

[protar]

Regarding a potential Stark ancestor apparently there was a Beron Stark who made common cause with Casterly Rock to fight Dagon Greyjoy. A marriage could have resulted from that. Though any child of that marriage would have been considered a Stark. It would be very surprising though if they were descended through the Stark's via the female line though. Say there's an inheritance crisis in Casterly Rock so Beron's son takes on the Lannister name and inherits. It's also long enough ago that it may not have been mentioned, but short enough ago that he can be called a recent ancestor within reason.

ETA: Oops, messed up there. They wouldn't be descended through the Stark female line, they would be descended through the Stark male line and the Lannister female line, when usually it would be the other way around.

[Lord Varys]

Beron Stark made an alliance with the Lannisters of Casterly Rock against Dagon Greyjoy, yes, but he came back failing from battle and his young pregnant wife is going to have a hard time keeping the wolves in check. That's the synopsis of 'The She-Wolves of Winterfell'. I very much doubt that there will be a battle against Dagon Greyjoy where the Starks and Lannisters actually combine their forces. All they seem to do is to attack him more or less simultaneously at different locations. And with the drought finished the new Lord of Casterly Rock, Tybolt Lannister, should be able to put an end to Dagon's adventures soon enough

[protar]

Beron Stark made an alliance with the Lannisters of Casterly Rock against Dagon Greyjoy, yes, but he came back failing from battle and his young pregnant wife is going to have a hard time keeping the wolves in check. That's the synopsis of 'The She-Wolves of Winterfell'. I very much doubt that there will be a battle against Dagon Greyjoy where the Starks and Lannisters actually combine their forces. All they seem to do is to attack him more or less simultaneously at different locations. And with the drought finished the new Lord of Casterly Rock, Tybolt Lannister, should be able to put an end to Dagon's adventures soon enough

Fair enough, I'm not really up to speed on what the She-wolves of Winterfell is supposed to be about. I suppose if there is anything to it it will be detailed in that book, which also means it's unlikely to be a surprise for Ran as I assume he's helping George on the Dunk and Egg books. So yeah it would have been interesting, but I guess it's unlikely. I'll stick to a Skaagosi then.

[Lord Varys]

The fact that Lord Beron is dying or severely hurt was already mentioned in TMK, was it not? At least that's what I remember. During the hedge knight conversation at the lake shore when the Greyjoy topic and Dunk's idea to go North were discussed.

[protar]

The fact that Lord Beron is dying or severely hurt was already mentioned in TMK, was it not? At least that's what I remember. During the hedge knight conversation at the lake shore when the Greyjoy topic and Dunk's idea to go North were discussed.

I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories so I have no idea :P