Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[Lord Varys]

The way Tywin's battle tactics are described in AGoT never indicated to me that this man was ever more than an average warrior himself. It is never ever mentioned that Tywin even rode in a tourney in his youth. We don't even know if he is a knight - just as we don't know if Stannis is one.

I always assumed that Tywin and Aerys became friends through Joanna who served as lady-in-waiting to Princess Rhaella, but Ran let it slip that Tywin lived apparently as page/squire at court during his youth.

Since the War of the Ninepenny Kings is now placed during the last years of Egg's reign - I always thought this happened during Jaehaerys' II reign - it makes little sense to assume that Tywin is related to Blackfyre considering that the war was fought to deal with them once and for all. On the other hand, if little Tywin was living as hostage at court this could make sense. But Tytos does not seem to be the kind of person who would support the Blackfyre cause even if his wife/mother was a Blackfyre princess.

On Tytos personality: We have never met him. But from everything we know about his relationship to his mistress we cannot conclusively judge that he was as weak as he is portrayed. My guess is that he never truly loved the woman he was forced to marry and decided to share his life and wealth with a woman he did love late in his life. The way Tywin treated his father's mistress (i.e. his stepmother) and the way Tytos' other children think about her tells actually more about themselves than about the actual relationship between Tytos and his mistress. All we know is that she took care of him and managed his affairs. But that's what a wife does, is it not? She is in charge or the household, especially in a medieval setting. The problem is that Tytos was not married to this woman, and that she was not highborn.

The other thing we know is that he (supposedly) consented to marry Genna to Emmon Frey for the sole reason to please Lord Walder. This must not be the whole truth. Considering that both Lord Walder and Tytos were around for quite some time at this time these two must have a history together, else Walder never would have gotten the idea that Tytos would even consider his offer.

It is obvious that Tytos was not the best possible lord under the sun, but in truth he may have been only an average guy, say, someone like Edmure Tully, who was forced to face opponents that were much stronger than he was.

Actually, I'd not be surprised if this whole Reyne/Tarbeck thing was no actual rebellion but more a quarrel spinning out of control. I'm quite sure that the Reynes and Tarbecks had not the means to attack and take Casterly Rock. They thought they had the right (or took) the right to defy Lord Tytos again and again. And I'm quite sure that Tywin did all he could to let the conflict escalate instead of quieting things down...

And I'm still not sure if Tywin was not already Aerys' Hand when he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks. How else could he have had the authority to deal with them the way he did? Tytos was still Lord of Casterly Rock at this time - and it has been confirmed that Tywin did not live back home when his father died - and I guess the Iron Throne would have had a say in all these matters...

[mrunderhill]

The way Tywin's battle tactics are described in AGoT never indicated to me that this man was ever more than an average warrior himself. It is never ever mentioned that Tywin even rode in a tourney in his youth. We don't even know if he is a knight - just as we don't know if Stannis is one.

I get the impression most Lords were knights unless injured in youth, at least in the south and Tywin was a squire so he should be a knight. I am not really that knowledgeable about military tactics, so I can only go by the POV of other characters, which is not always reliable, that he seems very good.

I always assumed that Tywin and Aerys became friends through Joanna who served as lady-in-waiting to Princess Rhaella, but Ran let it slip that Tywin lived apparently as page/squire at court during his youth.

This seems a bit odd to me. Why would the heir to Casterly Rock be a page/squire at court? There must be more to the story. Martin has said Aerys called for Robert's head in part because he had a claim to the throne, but he was still more afraid of Tywin.

Since the War of the Ninepenny Kings is now placed during the last years of Egg's reign - I always thought this happened during Jaehaerys' II reign - it makes little sense to assume that Tywin is related to Blackfyre considering that the war was fought to deal with them once and for all. On the other hand, if little Tywin was living as hostage at court this could make sense. But Tytos does not seem to be the kind of person who would support the Blackfyre cause even if his wife/mother was a Blackfyre princess.

The war was fought, because another Blackfyre pretender had tried to invade Westeros. Tytos seems weak, but it does not mean you should not take out an insurance against him possibly going over to their side.

On Tytos personality: We have never met him. But from everything we know about his relationship to his mistress we cannot conclusively judge that he was as weak as he is portrayed. My guess is that he never truly loved the woman he was forced to marry and decided to share his life and wealth with a woman he did love late in his life. The way Tywin treated his father's mistress (i.e. his stepmother) and the way Tytos' other children think about her tells actually more about themselves than about the actual relationship between Tytos and his mistress. All we know is that she took care of him and managed his affairs. But that's what a wife does, is it not? She is in charge or the household, especially in a medieval setting. The problem is that Tytos was not married to this woman, and that she was not highborn.

No we can assume he was weak from what we have heard. Lords were borrowing gold from him and not bothered to return it. He was a laughing stock for the noble houses and allowing a mistress such power was unheard of. The jokes made about Tytos and his mistress, shows she had most of the power.

The other thing we know is that he (supposedly) consented to marry Genna to Emmon Frey for the sole reason to please Lord Walder. This must not be the whole truth. Considering that both Lord Walder and Tytos were around for quite some time at this time these two must have a history together, else Walder never would have gotten the idea that Tytos would even consider his offer.

Walder Frey seemed to know what sort of man Tytos was and that he could be bulled. The Tarbecks were openly laughing at the match, whilst the Reynes were furious. There is no real excuse for marrying Genna so low or to such an unworthy man.

It is obvious that Tytos was not the best possible lord under the sun, but in truth he may have been only an average guy, say, someone like Edmure Tully, who was forced to face opponents that were much stronger than he was.

Actually, I'd not be surprised if this whole Reyne/Tarbeck thing was no actual rebellion but more a quarrel spinning out of control. I'm quite sure that the Reynes and Tarbecks had not the means to attack and take Casterly Rock. They thought they had the right (or took) the right to defy Lord Tytos again and again. And I'm quite sure that Tywin did all he could to let the conflict escalate instead of quieting things down...

The Reynes had lost all respect for the Lannisters. It seemed at first they were angry that Tytos was shaming the once proud Lannister name. If my theory is correct, they are probably an offshoot of the Lannister kings and with Tytos' weakness they probably tried to claim the Lord Paramount position. The Tarbecks were openly defying Tytos. Everyone of his children think Tytos was weak and they all looked upon Tywin as their protector. It is not a good sin when a little girl has to look up to her 10 year old brother rather than her father for protection.

And I'm still not sure if Tywin was not already Aerys' Hand when he dealt with the Reynes and Tarbecks. How else could he have had the authority to deal with them the way he did? Tytos was still Lord of Casterly Rock at this time - and it has been confirmed that Tywin did not live back home when his father died - and I guess the Iron Throne would have had a say in all these matters...

I don't think he was Hand yet. He had become Hand at 20, but this seemed to have been carried out before. Lord Paramounts have power to squash rebellions without much need to appeal to the King. Dunk has fought in a quite a few wars for minor squabbles.

The Blackfyre connection would begin to explain a lot.

1. Tywin being at court=hostage in case of Blackfyre support from Lannisters

2. Aerys a blood supremacist= lusting after Joanna

3. Explain possible Targaryen traits Cersei and Tyrion seem to have

4. Explain why Aerys was so afraid of Tywin

5. Tywin's confidance that Aerys would marry Rhaegar to Cersei

[Lord Varys]

Aerys being 'more afraid of Tywin' is easily explained. If there was one who know what Tywin was capable of it was Aerys. They have worked together for nearly two decades, and ruling is no easy business. I don't think we should connect this line to Tywin's claim to anything.

In fact, the whole thing that Tywin wants to marry into House Targaryen strongly indicates that he does not have even a drop of Targaryen blood. If he would be part Blackfyre Aerys would either consider him a worthy match or discard him and his family as unworthy to serve him or provide brides for the royal family.

If the Lannisters of this generations had Targaryen or Blackfyre blood in them, things would have turned out quite differently. Tywin would have deposed Cersei's incest brats, for instance, and named himself Tywin the First of His Name due to his own claim. He could have done that after he had defeated Stannis.

The Lannisters would not be in the situation they are in now because they could state that they had a claim to the Iron Throne that was as good - or even better - than Robert's claim. And that would make House Lannister a real royal house, not merely the house of the (former) queen which has gotten rid of the actual royal family (i.e. the Baratheons).

[mrunderhill]

Aerys being 'more afraid of Tywin' is easily explained. If there was one who know what Tywin was capable of it was Aerys. They have worked together for nearly two decades, and ruling is no easy business. I don't think we should connect this line to Tywin's claim to anything.

Robert had just shown himself as a great general and Aerys had finally realised he was such a huge threat to the Targaryen dynasty. It is possible he holds Tywin in such high esteem, but there could be more to it.

In fact, the whole thing that Tywin wants to marry into House Targaryen strongly indicates that he does not have even a drop of Targaryen blood. If he would be part Blackfyre Aerys would either consider him a worthy match or discard him and his family as unworthy to serve him or provide brides for the royal family.

Wanting to marry his daughter to the crown prince is what most people would want to do, regardless if they had Targaryen blood or not. Lords like Tywin etc are not fools. You don't make a public offer for marriage unless you know the answer is going to be yes. It's like with the Margaery and Joffrey engagement; it had all been played out and agreed long before the official "offer." I would imagine the same for Rhaegar and Cersei; Tywin and Aerys had agreed upon the match and that is precisely why Aerys had come to the Westerlands. Something changed Aerys mind and he wanted to put Tywin firmly in his place.

If the Lannisters of this generations had Targaryen or Blackfyre blood in them, things would have turned out quite differently. Tywin would have deposed Cersei's incest brats, for instance, and named himself Tywin the First of His Name due to his own claim. He could have done that after he had defeated Stannis.

The Lannisters would not be in the situation they are in now because they could state that they had a claim to the Iron Throne that was as good - or even better - than Robert's claim. And that would make House Lannister a real royal house, not merely the house of the (former) queen which has gotten rid of the actual royal family (i.e. the Baratheons).

Why would Tywin depose his own grandchildren? He can rule through them and have them take the throne. Why would he cause trouble and alienate his allies? I don't think the Blackfyre claim would be very popular at the moment and his claim would still be a weak one. The Martells for instance would have a much better claim to the throne than any Blackfyre descendant.

Lord Crakehall does suggest that Tywin could be proclaimed king when he finds Jaime sitting on the throne.

[Lord Varys]

Tywin's grandchildren are brats born of incest. Deep down he knows that. If he could seize the Iron Throne for himself he could make Jaime his heir and continue his line through his grandchildren from Jaime and the bride he chooses for him. That's what he wants for Casterly Rock, and I'm sure he would have wanted the same for the Iron Throne if he had the chance to do that.

On the Cersei match: One would think that Tywin would have negotiated with Aerys the details before the final offer. But it seems as if this has not been the case. Else one could have expected some sort of private audience/meeting/interaction between Cersei and Rhaegar. It's not impossible that Tywin thought that Aerys would just go along with idea because he was the great Lord Tywin.

On the other hand, it's quite as likely that Aerys himself was manipulated into slighting Tywin publicly. Tywin humiliated the Princess of Dorne (Doran's mother) and she may not have only convinced Aerys to marry Rhaegar to Elia. She may have been the one who put an end to Rhaegar-Cersei betrothal which was already agreed upon. After all, her brother Prince Lewyn was a member of the Kingsguard.

There are even theories out there that Cersei convinced/urged Aerys on to choose Jaime for the Kingsguard. Things are not always what they seem.

But my guess is that if there was already a marriage contract between Houses Targaryen and Lannister, Tywin would have stepped down as Hand when Aerys throw his offer in his face rather than to wait until the Jaime incident. We do know that Tywin still hoped to marry Cersei to a Targaryen prince afterwards (either to a widowed Rhaegar or a young Viserys).

[Maia]

There are even theories out there that Cersei convinced/urged Aerys on to choose Jaime for the Kingsguard. Things are not always what they seem..

Is this sarcasm? We know from Jaime's PoV (in ASoS, I think) that she absolutely was behind it. She used a night of passion to convince Jaime and we have no clue how she pitched it to Aerys, but it was absolutely her doing and was put in action very speedily.

Cersei in a nutshell - quite good at putting together plots that work, but have disastrous long-time implications. I have even wondered if Cersei hoped that with Jaime out of the way, Tywin would name _her_ heir instead of the hated dwarf (plausible), but according to her PoVs in the later books, no. She just completely misjuged the fallout, as usual.

.

But my guess is that if there was already a marriage contract between Houses Targaryen and Lannister, Tywin would have stepped down as Hand when Aerys throw his offer in his face rather than to wait until the Jaime incident.

IMHO, Tywin liked his job and was willing to put up with a lot to keep it. Also, with the level of Aerys's rationality fluctuating unpredictably there was always hope of catching him in a good phase and quickly pushing things through.

Re: Martells, IIRC, after refusing Tywin, Aerys sent the Baratheons to look for a bride for Rhaegar in the Free Cities - probably a Blackfyre descendant or maybe Aerion's. Because there is no shortage of other Valyrian nobility there and we know that they were returning empty-handed.

It is only after that failed, that Aerys considered Elia, so I doubt very much that Martells had anything to do with his snubbing of Tywin. Probably just an upsurge of jealousy and desire to deny Tywin something he wanted very much (as Joanna was denied to Aerys himself?).

Frankly I have always wondered why Aerys didn't lust after Cersei. Maybe he was already largely impotent by the time she was 14 or so, or maybe she doesn't look like her mother.

[Free Northman]

I seriously doubt Cersei had any influence over Aerys whatsoever. She influenced Jaime to accept, as far as I can recall, but Aerys naming Jaime to the Kingsguard was all his own idea, and aimed entirely at hitting Tywin where it hurts.

Cersei almost certainly had no input into his decision whatsoever. I find it very difficult to see how she could have had any influence over the King.

[Maia]

I seriously doubt Cersei had any influence over Aerys whatsoever. She influenced Jaime to accept, as far as I can recall, but Aerys naming Jaime to the Kingsguard was all his own idea, and aimed entirely at hitting Tywin where it hurts

Well, according to Jaime's PoV, Cersei suggested it to Jaime, convinced him to accept it and said that she would handle everything else. And it happened.

She recognised that Aerys would be receptive to this idea and pitched it to him, I guess?

[Free Northman]

Well, according to Jaime's PoV, Cersei suggested it to Jaime, convinced him to accept it and said that she would handle everything else. And it happened.

She recognised that Aerys would be receptive to this idea and pitched it to him, I guess?

Interesting. I have no idea how she could have managed that, aged 15.

[mrunderhill]

Tywin's grandchildren are brats born of incest. Deep down he knows that. If he could seize the Iron Throne for himself he could make Jaime his heir and continue his line through his grandchildren from Jaime and the bride he chooses for him. That's what he wants for Casterly Rock, and I'm sure he would have wanted the same for the Iron Throne if he had the chance to do that.

I don't really agree with this. He seems to want Tommen to be raised as a proper Lannister and take the throne.

On the Cersei match: One would think that Tywin would have negotiated with Aerys the details before the final offer. But it seems as if this has not been the case. Else one could have expected some sort of private audience/meeting/interaction between Cersei and Rhaegar. It's not impossible that Tywin thought that Aerys would just go along with idea because he was the great Lord Tywin.

I don't think there has to be some private meeting between the two. Tywin seemed so confident that the marriage was going through that he was telling everyone about it including Cersei, Genna and the Princess of Dorne. Why else would Aerys make the trip to the Westerlands brining Rhaegar along? It all seems planned to me. Aerys makes the trip, great tournament in his honour and at the end the betrothal is made official.

On the other hand, it's quite as likely that Aerys himself was manipulated into slighting Tywin publicly. Tywin humiliated the Princess of Dorne (Doran's mother) and she may not have only convinced Aerys to marry Rhaegar to Elia. She may have been the one who put an end to Rhaegar-Cersei betrothal which was already agreed upon. After all, her brother Prince Lewyn was a member of the Kingsguard.

I doubt this, since after rejecting Cersei he probably sent Steffon to look for other Blackfyre descendants in Essos. He probably wanted with Targaryen blood, but thought Tywin was beginning to get too powerful.

There are even theories out there that Cersei convinced/urged Aerys on to choose Jaime for the Kingsguard. Things are not always what they seem.

I thought the books imply that she did. She said leave everything to her and then went and got Jaime nominated.

But my guess is that if there was already a marriage contract between Houses Targaryen and Lannister, Tywin would have stepped down as Hand when Aerys throw his offer in his face rather than to wait until the Jaime incident. We do know that Tywin still hoped to marry Cersei to a Targaryen prince afterwards (either to a widowed Rhaegar or a young Viserys).

I don't think so. He put up with a lot, whilst being Hand and loved the power. Being raised to Hand was one of the few times that he smiled. Taking away Jaime his heir and someone "special" to him was too much. Even then if Aerys had given Jaime back, he would have returned to fight in the war.

[protar]

Interesting. I have no idea how she could have managed that, aged 15.

It depends how much she looked like her mother whom Aerys was lusting over. We know Cersei's not above that kind of thing.

[Lord Varys]

If Cersei had even slept with Aerys II Targaryen we should know by now, shouldn't we? We do know about her obsession with Rhaegar, and we see her using her seduction skills quite a lot in AFfC. I guess she would have let it slip had she once successfully seduced Aerys Targaryen.

But it is entirely possible that she fed the idea to Aerys, or was led to believe that convincing Jaime to join the Kingsguard would be a great idea (when it was actually a stupid idea). Cersei once said that she believed that Varys was her best and only friend at court. This has to refer to the time when she first lived at court, not to the time when she became Robert's queen.

I'm sure Steffon Baratheon was not sent to the Free Cities to find a decent bride of Valyrian heritage, not a bride descended from a Targaryen/Blackfyre bastard. He most likely tried to find such a woman in Lys and Volantis (which was his last call, the place where he and Cassana bought Patchface).

Elia Martell was an ill-suited bride for Rhaegar Targaryen (or any husband). She was sickly since she was born too early, an ADwD confirmed that she nearly died giving birth to Aegon and could no longer carry children. Aerys would never have chosen her had he not been influenced behind the scenes.

On Tommen: Yes, Tywin acknowledges that Tommen is a Lannister. This means he knows about the incest, does it not? Else he would be a Baratheon as much as a Lannister (or perhaps even more a Baratheon). Tywin has to work with Cersei's children in the books because House Lannister has no claim to the Iron Throne. But if he had a drop of Targaryen or Blackfyre blood in him (i.e. if he was the son/grandson/great-grandson or a Targaryen or Blackfyre princess he would most certainly have seized the power for himself). He would have done so after the Blackwater or perhaps even during the Sack of King's Landing.

[protar]

It's true that we probably would have heard of such a seduction, although it would hardly be the first time Martin has omitted information from POVs. I mean if she did in any way feed him the idea that's been omitted from her POV as well has it not? Has Cersei ever thought about Jaime being named to the KG?

[Lord Varys]

No, but she thinks about Rhaegar and Aurane Waters. Aerys would have looked pretty much the same, especially since during this times he would have been not yet King Scab with the Long Nailes and Unkempt Hair.

If Cersei had ever shared the bed with a Targaryen we would know by now.

If there is something more to it in this whole thing my guess is that Varys manipulated both Aerys and Cersei into naming Jaime to the Kingsguard to get rid of Tywin.

[mrunderhill]

I'm sure Steffon Baratheon was not sent to the Free Cities to find a decent bride of Valyrian heritage, not a bride descended from a Targaryen/Blackfyre bastard. He most likely tried to find such a woman in Lys and Volantis (which was his last call, the place where he and Cassana bought Patchface).

I don't think it would be hard to find a noble woman with Valyrian heritage in Lys. I think there was something more specific, but until we get information it is all just speculation.

Elia Martell was an ill-suited bride for Rhaegar Targaryen (or any husband). She was sickly since she was born too early, an ADwD confirmed that she nearly died giving birth to Aegon and could no longer carry children. Aerys would never have chosen her had he not been influenced behind the scenes.

Yeh Elia was a bad match, but she still had Targaryen blood. She was probably the only princess from a great House with recent Targaryen ancestry. Even the Baratheons only have Targaryen blood a generation after her.

On Tommen: Yes, Tywin acknowledges that Tommen is a Lannister. This means he knows about the incest, does it not? Else he would be a Baratheon as much as a Lannister (or perhaps even more a Baratheon). Tywin has to work with Cersei's children in the books because House Lannister has no claim to the Iron Throne. But if he had a drop of Targaryen or Blackfyre blood in him (i.e. if he was the son/grandson/great-grandson or a Targaryen or Blackfyre princess he would most certainly have seized the power for himself). He would have done so after the Blackwater or perhaps even during the Sack of King's Landing.

I don't think it does. Tywin considered Genna's boys as Lannisters and wanted them trained at the Rock too. He then went on to give them a Lordship, because they were "Lannisters". I don't think Tommen has to be a Lannister from both sides of the family for Tywin to accept him.

I personally don't see why Tywin would be in a rush to claim the throne, through Blackfyre blood, when there are many better claimants. The Blackfyre's reputation had suffered greatly, they had probably been banned from the line of succession and the Martells had a great claim. Why destablise the realm for something so small? His grandson already sat on the throne.

[The Witch Queen of Angmar]

I personally feel that this "mystery" ancestor is Shiera Seastar. this is mainly because she was a well-known seductress and had many lovers, so it is not impossible that she may have had a bastard from this. if she wanted to, I'm sure she could have hidden such a pregnancy because she was also a sorceress of high quality. She was considered a great beauty, despite her mismatched eyes...which Tyrion Lannister happens to have. I wouldn't say its a shocker, but it is a very interesting topic. his hair is also lighter than his siblings and his other kin. I think Shiera Seastar is a really fascinating character and I find both her and Bloodraven important in the grander scheme of current and old Westeros.

[Abhakhazia]

I think the ancestor is a Stark, I have a legitimate reason other than irony.

Remember in ADwD when Theon and Lady Dustin are in the crypts of Winterfell, and Theon remembers Maester Luwin telling him this-

Lord Beron Stark, who made common cause with Casterly Rock to war against Dagon Greyjoy, Lord of Pyke, in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven

Right, so we have common cause between Starks and Lannisters. The Starks, as far as we know have had no Western Fleet since Brandon the Shipwright and the Lannisters were building a fleet to repel the Ironborn from Fair Isle. So, maybe in exchange for the use of the Lannister fleet against the Ironborn in the North, Lord Beron sent his daughter to marry the lord of Casterly Rock.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

If it has to be a recent person, i would suspect Tywin's mom. And the only real shocking possibility, at least for the Lannisters, would be a common woman, maybe even a whore.

[hodor stark]

i don think it could be baratheon simply because of the hair colour thing in GOT everyone who ever mates with a baratheon has black hair this is confirmed when ned is reading the book so surely if tywin had baratheon blood he would have black hair as its the dominant gene unless im missing somethin. i also don think it was a targ like everyone 1 says that would have been mention same with starks aswell. my crackpot theory is that brienne is tywins cousin making her jaimies second cousin dnt know how it would of happend but wud b a nice lil twist lol.

[Tim Thomason]

If it has to be a recent person, i would suspect Tywin's mom. And the only real shocking possibility, at least for the Lannisters, would be a common woman, maybe even a whore.

I understand that Tywin can't be a bastard, even a legitimized one. But would it be crazy/unlikely/"outside of the laws of Westeros" for Tytos to have married a smallfolk woman? Even, perhaps as a second wife or something (after his first, noble wife dies without issue)?

We already know Tytos later took a common-born mistress (daughter of a candlemaker) as a sort of common-law wife (sat in court, ordered around servants, et cetera). Is it out of the question that the Lord Paramount, with no superior other than the Targaryen King, can marry who he pleases?

Tywin's mother being anything less than a Lady of High Nobility would be a somewhat surprising development, but it fits with his father nearly ruining the family name by doing foolish un-Tywiny things (like perhaps marrying for love, the fool!). It also explains away the idea that his mother can't be a Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell, Greyjoy, Martell, or any other Great House, as that would likely warrant a mention in his dealings with them (plus, it was pre-Southron ambitions).

Also of note, Tytos was a third son who was elevated to Lord Paramount perhaps unwillingly. Maybe he was allowed to marry a commoner when he was but a lowly knight when his brothers died and his wife just came along as Lady Paramount when he was unexpectedly elevated. I wonder too if Tywin was born as the expected heir to Casterly Rock or as just a minor noble in a sea of Lannisters. We know he served as a squire at one point.