Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[Veltigar]

No believable explanation has been given for why Pycelle is so loyal to the Lannisters. Whether he is a closet Lannister or not, something is up, and the good of the realm or Tywin being a good ruler is just not believable.

Ah, ye of little faith. There is this little thing that we call loyalty. It's not popular anymore, but it still exist. Pycelle supported the Lannisters because he believed in the brilliance of Tywin, that's it. There is no ulterior motive.

I really don't see what the difficulty is here. History is filled with people who remain loyal to a person and what they stood for, even sacrificing their life for it.

[Bael's Bastard]

The obvious existence of Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin and his family does not explain the reason(s) for it, and his putting it even above his vows as a Maester (Grand Maester, at that). Perhaps it will turn out there was nothing behind it except thinking Tywin was amazing, and I am not suggesting the Pycelle's loyalty and admiration for Tywin was other than genuine, but I tend to think there is more to their relationship (not necessarily even blood) and to Pycelle's involvement in the fall of House Targaryen than just thinking Tywin was brilliant.

As for surprising Lannister ancestor, I have wondered whether Joanna (or perhaps Tywin) was descended from one of Egg's sisters Daella or Rhae. Maybe through one of Tybolt's sons. Perhaps Tywin was not descended from a Targaryen but his wife was, and thus so were his children. Their ancestry still would have been further removed than Robert's through Egg's daughter. Whatever it ends up being, I can't wait to read this book.

[J. Stargaryen]

My best guess is that Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter is the surprising ancestor. I had guessed that she was either Tywin's mother or grandmother, but another user suggested that she was Joanna's mother, which probably makes more sense.

[Gurkhal]

Which is curious, because he is not supposed to be loyal to Tywin or House Lannister, as he is Grand Maester, and was so under the Targaryens for a quarter of a century before betraying them to be slaughtered by Tywin. Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin and Lannisters requires explanation, whether that explanation is that he is a descendent, ancestor, or whatever.

Well Tywin was Hand of the King for twenty years and apparently didn't do bad at all. So that could be a reason to Pycelle's relation with the Lannisters.

[Bael's Bastard]

So he is loyal to Tywin, over even his vows as a Maester (being the Grand Maester), because Tywin's "didn't do bad at all" as Hand of the King? If Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin is based on the good of the realm, he should have abandoned him while he was still alive, and certainly after his death. The Lannister bastards have made Robert seem like a pretty decent king in comparison.

[Veltigar]

So he is loyal to Tywin, over even his vows as a Maester (being the Grand Maester), because Tywin's "didn't do bad at all" as Hand of the King? If Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin is based on the good of the realm, he should have abandoned him while he was still alive, and certainly after his death. The Lannister bastards have made Robert seem like a pretty decent king in comparison.

1) The Maesters are people to and they are certainly not above breaking their vows (e.g. Sam's chapters in AFFC).

2) Tywin did more than okay. The land bloomed under his leadership and Pycelle was there, as grandmaester, to witness that it was Tywin who was (soly) responsible for the prosperity in the realm while Aerys II went crazier every year.

3) He stayed true to Tywin after he left the city because he saw what Tywin was capable off. For Pycelle, Tywin was everything a King needed to be (it's a bit like Stannis going to KL and thinking that Tywin was the King) and if Tywin had been given the Realm he would have lead it to a new age of prosperity. Sadly, there were always people envious of Tywin and they stood in Tywin's way. And thus Pycelle tried to sabotage those people and aid Tywin's cause.

4) Pycelle so strongly believed in Tywin that it was hard to abandon him, even if he was dead. Tywin was a great man and Pycelle probably hoped that some of his abilities rubbed off on his heirs. When it turned out that Jaime was uninterested and Cersei bonkers he actively tried to find a new strong man to stand behind. That's why in AFFC he's sighted alongside the Tyrells numerous times. But as soon as a Lannister with a working brain (Kevan) is appointed to call the shots, Pycelle quickly transfers his loyalty back to his old love, the Lannisters.

[Fat Mac]

I don't see why there has to be anything suspicious about Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin. Unlike some people on this board who like to downplay his competence just because he's basically evil, Tywin was a man that many seemed to respect. Pycelle was Grand Maester only a few years before Tywin came in as hand. I'm assuming he latched to Tywin almost immediately, because Tywin had a certain strength that few men had.

[Veltigar]

I don't see why there has to be anything suspicious about Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin. Unlike some people on this board who like to downplay his competence just because he's basically evil, Tywin was a man that many seemed to respect. Pycelle was Grand Maester only a few years before Tywin came in as hand. I'm assuming he latched to Tywin almost immediately, because Tywin had a certain strength that few men had.

:bowdown: :agree:

[Fat King Robert]

I don't see why there has to be anything suspicious about Pycelle's loyalty to Tywin. Unlike some people on this board who like to downplay his competence just because he's basically evil, Tywin was a man that many seemed to respect. Pycelle was Grand Maester only a few years before Tywin came in as hand. I'm assuming he latched to Tywin almost immediately, because Tywin had a certain strength that few men had.

Well put! :agree:

[Devaki Khanna]

I think that a Targaryen ancestor is very likely but then again over 300 years most Great Houses have probably at one time or another intermarried with the royal family. I would be mightly suprised if there has not been a Lannister-Targaryen marriage at one point or another in history.

Now what I think might be for a more dramatic effect would be for the Starks and Lannisters to have intermarried at one point or another. But then again its probably kind of expected to have the two of them have some common ancestery due to being enemies now, so that might not be it either.

Wasn't Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt, supposed to have a Lannister mother?

[Tim Thomason]

Pycelle forsook his vows for a little time with his servant on the side. That had nothing to do with Lannister Loyalty.

[Gurkhal]

Wasn't Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt, supposed to have a Lannister mother?

Never heard of it to be honest.

[Ser Leftwich]

Here is a crackpot speculation, what if Pycelle is the older brother of Tytos Lannister. Tytos was the third born son. The eldest died at some point, but the second oldest, Pycelle, got sent off the Citadel.

[Fat Mac]

Here is a crackpot speculation, what if Pycelle is the older brother of Tytos Lannister. Tytos was the third born son. The eldest died at some point, but the second oldest, Pycelle, got sent off the Citadel.

The main problem with that is, many characters would be sure to note the relation. I'm sure Cersei, Tyrion and Kevan would all think about it in their respective POV's, since they've all had important interactions with him. Thats why, if Pycelle is a relation to the Lannisters at all, it sure isn't a close one.

But to support the theory he would likely be around the age of the Lannisters in Tytos' generation.

[Musashisamurai]

Boltons.

Theres a bolton connection somewhere.

That, or a Greyjoy raped Lady Lannister and thus Tywin was never legit by birth.

[Ser Leftwich]

Maybe on Joanna Lannister's side of the family there is a Spicer or another relative of Maggy the Frog.

Elsewhere I am cracking pots about Jaime having green dreams and this idea popped into my head.

[Charles Stuart]

There is Aegon V's mystery son's identity still waiting to be revealed. I'm counting on it having a large impact.

[SamwellTarlyLordofHornHill]

It is said that Aegon V allowed his children to marry for love before arranging his grandchildren, Aerys and Rhaella's marriage in 258 AL e.g. Duncan the small married jenny of Oldstones. And Maekar I was not married to a fellow Targ. It is possible that perhaps the feeble-witted daughter of Daeron Targaryen is Tywin's mother, and she merely used the idiot persona to survive Targaryen politics and machinations. She married Tytos Lannister for protection after her grandfather died and her uncle Egg may not have been as nice as he was with Dunk. Perhaps, even she feared Aerion Brightflame's return as a dragon or some such, but she needed the protection of the Lannisters. Also, she may still be feeble witted as it seems possible that Tytos Lannister had this marriage arranged by Aegon just to marry her off and to slight him for being as weak as he was supposed to be.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What if the ancestor was a Tyrell? Than Cersei woul basically be fighting against her (very very distant) cousins.

I doubt the surprising ancestor was someone "recent" (like, in the past 100 to 150 years). Most likely, it was someone from before that time, since the more distant in time it was, the less likely people are to mention it.

[donalnig]

Damon Lannister was married to a Stark ! that's why he made common cause with Beron Stark to fight the ironborn! Damon had 3 son's by her Tybolt, Gerion and Tytos! Tybolt and Gerion both died so Tytos unexpectantly became Lord and named his youngest son after his elder brother