Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If I'm not mistaken, then Joanna and Tywin were first cousins, meaning that Tytos must have had a younger brother.

That was never given, she's only called "a cousin" in the books.

[The hairy bear]

Mmmm. I also seem to recall that we had been told that Joanna and Tywin were first cousin, at some point. However, a google search has not allowed me to confirm it, so perhaps it's just a missconception.

The closest I've seen is this Barcelona interview. The interviewer says: "We see marriages that are almost always between families seeking to ally themselves to one another. Given this context, it always seemed strange that the marriage of Tywin Lannister was to a first cousin, and even stranger when you consider how pragmatic and ambitious Tywin was." And Martin does not correct him. But it's far from conclusive, of course.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If it's a mistake on Tytos' app entry, it wouls be extremely weird if the same mistake was put on the entries of Tywin and Joanna. Could someone who has the app perhaps check?

[Mithras]

“He won the hand of His Lordship's eldest daughter by killing three of her other suitors, it's said, and once unhorsed the Lord of Casterly Rock."

"What, young Lord Tybolt?" asked Ser Maynard.

"No, the old Grey Lion, the one who died in the spring."

Tybolt participated at Ashford Tourney in 209 and he was a formidable opponent back then. However, during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion in 212, Bloodraven referred to him as the young Lord Tybolt. I think he was at most 20 in 212. Given that Tytos is the third son and he fathered Tywin in 242, I think a generation between Tybolt and Tytos is very unlikely. We should also note that miscarriages and stillborn children or child deaths are very common in Westeros. Thus, Tybolt being the father of Tytos is the most plausible explanation.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That's very interesting.. I'll take another look at it.. It doesn't help of course that we can't be sure about Damon's age either..

But has anyone already checked the app about Tytos being the youngest of three boys? And whether there is contradictionary info on the pages of Tywin or Joanna? (if they have entries at all)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To get back at the "young Lord Tybolt" situation, Edmure Tully, whose age ranges in betwee 26 to 33, is also referred to as young. I estimated Tybolt to have been born in 180 AC, which would make him in his late twenties/early thirties in 212 AC (the 180 AC is not an exact estimation, he is most likely born somewhere around 180 AC. It could be 183 AC, or 184 AC, for example, which would push him closer to Edmure's current age.).

I'm not saying it's impossible for Tybolt to have been Tytos' father. But looking at the other Lannister we have present, Tya Lannister, married some 90 years prior to 298 AC, placing her birth some 105 to 110 years prior to 298 AC, that would place her birth around 190AC. She could have been a younger sister, easily, especially if Damon was indeed born in the late 150ies, it would have made him around 35 when she was born.

They both remain possibilities, still.

But I wouldn't call Tytos being Tybolts son the most plausible explanation, especially not since generations seem to have 20 to 25 year gaps between them (Tywin was 24 when his first children were born, Doran Martell 26, Mace was somewhere between 25 and 30, Edmure will be between 26 and 33, Ned was 20, Jeor Mormont was about 25, Walder Frey was 25, Robert was in his early twenties, Stannis was between 20 and 25)

[Lord Varys]

Lord Damon Lannister is 'the Grey Lion' for quite some time in THK, it seems (long enough for Dunk to be familiar with the title, and Dunk is not quick). The Grey Lion should refer to Lord Damon's hair color, which should put his age in THK into his fifties, if we don't assume that his hair started to turn gray in his early thirties (and even if it did, it would only be recognizable if most of the hair turned white, considering the fair-hair of House Lannister).

There is also the fact that Ser Arlan rode against Ser Damon before he became Lord of Casterly Rock. He may in fact be about the same age as Leo Longthorn.

Thus my assumption would be that Ser Tybolt is definitely in his thirties in THK. I always interpreted the 'young Tybolt' quote from Ser Maynard as another hint that he is Bloodraven. Brynden Rivers seems to older than his Ser Maynard Plumm persona, whereas Ser Maynard would not necessarily refer to Tybolt as 'young'. It also indicate a familiarity Bloodraven may have with the Lannisters - a familiarity Maynard most certainly would not have...

[Mithras]

Genna Lannister: “Father [Tytos] was himself a thirdborn son,” - AFfC

I don't know the app but the quote in the book is clear.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In the Hedge Knight, this is said about the Grey Lion:

"I remember Ser Arlan of Pennytree," the man in the high seat said quietly. "He never won a tourney that I know, but he never shamed himself either. At King's Landing sixteen years ago, he overthrew Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in the melee, and many years before at Lannisport he unhorsed the Grey Lion himself. The lion was not so grey then, to be sure."

So 16 years + many years before, the Grey Lion was not yet so grey. I'm certain they are referring to his hair colour here, so I'd say between 20 and 25 years before 209 AC, the Grey Lion was not yet so grey, which makes me put his current (209 AC) age around 55-60. Having had a son at the age of 25, Tybolt would be in his late twenties, early thirties in 212 AC, young enough to be referred to as "young" by people.

[Mithras]

In the Hedge Knight, this is said about the Grey Lion:

So 16 years + many years before, the Grey Lion was not yet so grey. I'm certain they are referring to his hair colour here, so I'd say between 20 and 25 years before 209 AC, the Grey Lion was not yet so grey, which makes me put his current (209 AC) age around 55-60. Having had a son at the age of 25, Tybolt would be in his late twenties, early thirties in 212 AC, young enough to be referred to as "young" by people.

There may still be some 10 years between Tytos and his eldest brother. Trystane is also a third child and he is 11 years younger than Arianne. This removes any possible generation between Tytos and Tybolt.

[ChrisJM89]

I agree with the above. The length of time between Doran and his two siblings is also a wide margin.

I'm more than certain it's Damon-Tybolt-Tytos-Tywin (if not I have to change the family trees in aGoT CKII... again) Tytos seems to have had little learning in ruling/administration (leading to him being a weak ruler in general).

I figure there was a good gap between his two older brothers and himself. Probably 5-9 years, perhaps more. If they were all close to one another Tytos would have more than likely tagged along in learning to rule just through observations. Yet as it is, Tybolt had his heir and spare then got Tytos. Tywin is born in 242. Tytos being born 212-226 is more than pausible. With one of his brother either already born before then or about to be born. Considering he is third-born he might well have married later also, due his elder brothers getting first and second pick.

There's a gap of 10-11 years between Robb and Rickon. A 1st born son and 3rd born son.

[The hairy bear]

Genna Lannister: “Father [Tytos] was himself a thirdborn son,” - AFfC

I don't know the app but the quote in the book is clear.

The doubt is whether there was a fourth son or not. Tyros having a younger brother would allow Stafford and Joanna to be first cousins.

ETA:

I'm more than certain it's Damon-Tybolt-Tytos-Tywin (if not I have to change the family trees in aGoT CKII... again) Tytos seems to have had little learning in ruling/administration (leading to him being a weak ruler in general).

I think that we can't really tell, right now. Tybolt is called "young" in 212, but only when contrasting him to his father, "the old Grey Lion".

In 211 his younger brother Gerold was more than six feet tall, an "advisor" to his brother and a potential suitor to 25 year old Rohanne Webber. That suggests that, if Tybolt and Tytos were brothers, the age difference would be very big (20-30 years).

But as said, Damon fathering a Tytos as an old man the year he died (perhaps from a second wife), and Tytos fathering Tywin when he was 35 it's quite possible.

[Mithras]

The doubt is whether there was a fourth son or not. Tyros having a younger brother would allow Stafford and Joanna to be first cousins.

Yeah, that part is blurry. Tywin and Joanna are called cousins but we know that Egg called Bloodraven a cousin too. So we cannot be certain with the current information.

[Lord Varys]

The appendices of the novels list Stafford/Joanna, Damion, and Margot Lannister as cousins to the main line. Of them Stafford/Joanna are the closest, then comes Damion and his line, and at the very end Lady Margot Lannister, who is married to Lord Titus Peake (which could become important in the future - 'friends in the Reach' and stuff).

My take on that always was that Joanna/Stafford were the children of Tytos' younger brother, Damion the (grand)son of one of the younger brothers of Tytos' father or grandfather, and Lady Margot an even more distant cousin.

Tywin marrying a first cousin would also reflect his desire to emulate the Targaryens as well as underline his thinking that he considered the Lannister to be a very noble (and self-containing) family. It would also foreshadow the later incest, and add another layer to the whole thing (Jaime/Cersei enacting what Tywin most likely unconsciously desired to do).

I remember reading the SSM on Tywin's marriage years ago, and always took that as confirmation that they were first cousins.

[ChrisJM89]

The doubt is whether there was a fourth son or not. Tyros having a younger brother would allow Stafford and Joanna to be first cousins.

ETA:

I think that we can't really tell, right now. Tybolt is called "young" in 212, but only when contrasting him to his father, "the old Grey Lion".

In 211 his younger brother Gerold was more than six feet tall, an "advisor" to his brother and a potential suitor to 25 year old Rohanne Webber. That suggests that, if Tybolt and Tytos were brothers, the age difference would be very big (20-30 years).

But as said, Damon fathering a Tytos as an old man the year he died (perhaps from a second wife), and Tytos fathering Tywin when he was 35 it's quite possible.

I'm not saying Tybolt was Tytos' brother. Tybolt was his father. I'm speaking of Tytos' two elder brothers and the age difference between them if Tybolt in 212 is about 18-28. "Yet as it is, Tybolt had his heir and spare then got Tytos."

Hence the Damon-Tybolt-Tytos-Tywin. Four generations of Lannister Lords.

Edit: I also agree with Lord Varys, in regards to the other Lannister cousins. Joana is closer than all of them, so a 1st cousin would be the most logical.

[The hairy bear]

Sorry ChrisJM89, I missunderstood.

Still, there are plenty of open possibilites:

• Damon being the father of Tybolt, Gerion and Tytos.
  
• Damon fathering Tybolt, and then Tybolt fathering two sons+Tytos
  
• Damon fathering Tybolt, Tybolt fathering X, and X fathering two sons+Tytos
  

[ChrisJM89]

No worries.

I'd go with the first bullet point as unlikely, with the second being very likely and the third as likely. The third option, opens up more potential ancestors for our 'surprising' ancestor too.

While if it is the first option and the MUSH info is canon, then Tywin is suddenly 1/4 Tyrell rather than 1/8.

[Lord Varys]

I'd be very surprised, by the way, if Lord Tybolt did not have any children by the time of TMK. His brother Gerion is still unmarried, but the fact that Rohanne considers him to be more interested in political power behind the scenes (as Tybolt's brother), rather than in marrying a young and attractive Lady with rich lands suggests to me that he is no longer a teenager, but a bachelor in his early/middle twenties. And we don't know if he is Tybolt's second or third brother, or how much younger he is.

Bloodraven's 'young Tybolt' quote could be a hint to a personal encounter between the two, say, during the Blackfyre rebellion, when Tybolt was actually young. Ser Maynard's lines are full of hidden hints, some could be clever ploys to his relations to Lord Viserys Plumm as Bloodraven.

[Hardstone]

Tybolt's brother is called Gerold Lannister. This is getting confusing in here with all this talk of a new Gerion!

[Lord Varys]

I don't have TSS here right now, another point where the wiki is misleading...