Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He-he! I did guess it, but not to the extent that she actually married Gerold:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88203-surprising-lannister-ancestor/page-10#entry4965290

Let me gloat :)!

There's no emoticon for applause, so I'll just do it like this: :cheers:

Good job! You have definitly earned the right to gloat!

[Mrs_Darcy]

In another thread someone metioned, that the Lannisters would never marry someone like a Karstark or Manderly and Ran said something along the line of

"you do not know that " which for me heavily implies, that the Lannisters have Northern blood.

I am trying to find and cite the post.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In another thread someone metioned, that the Lannisters would never marry someone like a Karstark or Manderly and Ran said something along the line of

"you do not know that " which for me heavily implies, that the Lannisters have Northern blood.

I am trying to find and cite the post.

I remember that post. ;) Perhaps Ran was talking about a lesser recent ancestor..

[RumHam]

In another thread someone metioned, that the Lannisters would never marry someone like a Karstark or Manderly and Ran said something along the line of

"you do not know that " which for me heavily implies, that the Lannisters have Northern blood.

I am trying to find and cite the post.

Here you go:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107651-world-of-ice-and-fire-extract-to-be-available/page-16#entry5778549

[Mrs_Darcy]

Here you go:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107651-world-of-ice-and-fire-extract-to-be-available/page-16#entry5778549

Thanks, so the conversation I mentioned goes like

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

Marrying a lesser House from the North can be understood as firming up the loyalty of a bannerlord, but short of marrying for love, there is no reason why a marriage to a non-Paramount Southern House (with the exception of the super-powerful Hightowers and Redwynnes) would ever be logical.

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly? I think not.

and this is Ran's answer:

You don't know what you're talking about. Wait and see. ;)

[Mithras]

In this case (Gerold), the Lannisters married a lesser House in the South (Webber). By the way, it should not be surprising to us because we knew that Gerold really proposed to marry Rohanne even in TSS.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thanks, so the conversation I mentioned goes like

and this is Ran's answer:

But that doesn't mean that Ran is hinting towards the Surprising Lannister Ancestor. Just towards a Lannister ancestor.

The Surprising ancestor was a relatively recent one, as has been said. And the recent ones we've now leard off were those of Tytos' generation (Jeyne Marbrant, Marla Prester) and those of Tybolt/Gerions generation (Rohanne Webber). And they don't seem to fit the quote from Ran..

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah, I am (or I suppose will be if it is indeed true) more surprised that she would be considered a surprising Lannister ancestor. I guess I would have to see the original quote about there being a surprising Lannister ancestor. I am more (though not entirely) surprised that Lady Tarbeck was born a Reyne and previously a Lannister by marriage.

[Lord Varys]

I've been right, too, after a fashion. There is a Reyne in the Lannister family tree - the very founding mother of the House (wife of the first King Lorien). But Ellyn's story is really much better than everything I could have come up with.

[Maia]

In this case (Gerold), the Lannisters married a lesser House in the South (Webber). By the way, it should not be surprising to us because we knew that Gerold really proposed to marry Rohanne even in TSS.

Well, he didn't propose to her, they were just engaging in a mutually enjoyable correspondence. The septon hoped that he might propose, but, unsurprisingly, he never did. And, apart from everything else, Webbers aren't even direct vassals of the Tyrells, they are under Rowans. Distinctly a third-tier House, beneath even a Lannister second son, as Gerold was at the time of TSS, under the normal circumstances.

And, of course we saw that Rohanne was fiercely possessive of Coldmoat and TSS ended with her marriage. Ser Eustace didn't seem all that old to me - he was in his fifties and could have easily lived on for a decade or so. And few in Westeros would marry a woman, who is five times a widow and whose husbands tend to not live for very long.

So, yea, it was a bit surprising, IMHO.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, he didn't propose to her, they were just engaging in a mutually enjoyable correspondence. The septon hoped that he might propose, but, unsurprisingly, he never did. And, apart from everything else, Webbers aren't even direct vassals of the Tyrells, they are under Rowans. Distinctly a third-tier House, beneath even a Lannister second son, as Gerold was at the time of TSS, under the normal circumstances.

And, of course we saw that Rohanne was fiercely possessive of Coldmoat and TSS ended with her marriage. Ser Eustace didn't seem all that old to me - he was in his fifties and could have easily lived on for a decade or so. And few in Westeros would marry a woman, who is five times a widow and whose husbands tend to not live for very long.

So, yea, it was a bit surprising, IMHO.

The curse of the Red Widow strikes again! :p

[Veltigar]

Well, he didn't propose to her, they were just engaging in a mutually enjoyable correspondence. The septon hoped that he might propose, but, unsurprisingly, he never did. And, apart from everything else, Webbers aren't even direct vassals of the Tyrells, they are under Rowans. Distinctly a third-tier House, beneath even a Lannister second son, as Gerold was at the time of TSS, under the normal circumstances.

And, of course we saw that Rohanne was fiercely possessive of Coldmoat and TSS ended with her marriage. Ser Eustace didn't seem all that old to me - he was in his fifties and could have easily lived on for a decade or so. And few in Westeros would marry a woman, who is five times a widow and whose husbands tend to not live for very long.

So, yea, it was a bit surprising, IMHO.

A daughter of a third-tier house would not be beneath a second son Lannister, especially since marrying that daughter would actually given him control of Coldmoat (or at least his children would have).

[The Sleeper]

The Reyne bride isn't that surprising. The Lannisters have been overlords in the west since forever and have probably mariied into every major house there. Since the Reynes were prominent they would have married into them more often than most.

As for Rohane Webber, it is surprising. The difference is precipitous. The Rowans would be a good enough match for Lannisters, but that is because their an lod and respected family. A vassal of the Rowans? Not remotely. Lannisters would normally look to marry among their peers, which means other great lords or prominent vassals.

ETA of course he might have married her because he really fancied her. It happens.

[Veltigar]

Let me spell this out:

Tyrell

Rowan

Webber

Normally, A second son of the Lannister clan would marry into a house of either Tyrell or Rowan stature. Those are wealthier and more powerful, so if a second son of the Lannister marries one of Lord Tyrells/Rowan's daughters he would be provided for. But this was no normal situation, because marrying Rohanne would mean that the son would get sizeable lands and a nice castle of his own, instead of having to rely on the generosity of his wives older brother or father or nephew.

Now, if the Tyrells or Rowan's have had a female heir, than said Lannister would rather marry them. But if his Rowan/Tyrell bride has like three brothers, than why wouldn't he consider stepping down the ladder to become master of his own destiny? I think lot's of second and third sons would prefer that above winding up as Emmon Frey, who was constantly at Tywin's mercy.

[The Sleeper]

Finding another bride among the great houses might not always be possible since there like seven of them besides the Lannisters, but there must be like fifty second tier houses. Why go looking for third? Imagine the Tullys marrying a Haigh or a Smallwood. Not gonna happen.

Besides, Gerold would be the reigning lord when he married her.

[Veltigar]

Finding another bride among the great houses might not always be possible since there like seven of them besides the Lannisters, but there must be like fifty second tier houses. Why go looking for third? Imagine the Tullys marrying a Haigh or a Smallwood. Not gonna happen.

Because marrying this daughter of a third house would give the son sizeable lands of his own. Instead of becoming a retainer in service of his wives relatives or playing second violin to his own brother.

Besides, Gerold would be the reigning lord when he married her.

We were talking about tSS, where the septon thought there was a chance for a marriage between the two. Gerold marrying her afterwards is quite simple, he liked her, just like Tywin liked Joanna and didn't really get anything from the marriage.

[Lord Varys]

Well, the Webber-Osgreys would be a somewhat bigger family, since the lands of Coldmoat and Standfast would be united now.

As to Ser Eustace's life expectancy. The man was an old, done man in TSS in my opinion. He was not yet senile, but living in the past all the time, and not really connected to the present. I very much doubt that he would that long.

And Rohanne was also Gerold's second wife. A match he made after he had become Lord of Casterly Rock. No one made that match for, he was a great lord, and he could marry pretty much everyone he wanted - within certain limits, of course. A commoner would not be an option, I guess.

Gerold as a second son marrying Rohanne would have been a very good match, too. Look at the kind of woman Kevan or Mace's uncles got. They are not necessarily good matches. Tyrek got an infant Lady, with Rohanne Gerold would have gotten a castle and lands of his own. It would have made him a real lord, not just a man living of the fortunes of his father or elder brother.

[Bael's Bastard]

I am not saying it is surprising that a Lannister married a Reyne or Tarbeck (the opposite, see post 293).

But it is more surprising to me to learn that the particular Lady Tarbeck we've been told about in the main series, and her centrality to in what happened with the Lannisters, Reynes, and Tarbecks, had previously been betrothed and married to Tytos' two elder brothers (if I understand correctly that Tybald, Tion, and Tytos were brothers), than to learn that Rohanne Webber ended up marrying a Lannister.

Of course, Lady Tarbeck wasn't an ancestor of the current Lannisters as far as I can tell.

Then again, unless I am missing something, this excerpt doesn't seem to state which if any of Gerold's children were descended from Rohanne (if it is Rohanne Webber).

[Lord Varys]

It's confirmed that Rohanne's the mother of Gerold's children. In fact, she must be it, since everything else would not fit age-wise. We know that she disappeared in 230, and that Jason was considerably younger than Tytos, so there is simply no time for anyone to be the child of Gerold's first wife. Especially since the twins are too young in the 230s to be born before Gerold became Lord of Casterly Rock. And we have always known that Tytos was a third son...

I expect that Gerold had either no children from his first wife (who may have died in childbirth), or only a daughter.

Ellyn Reyne Lannister Tarbeck's story is indeed the real surprise. I imagined somewhat convoluted there, perhaps with Tytos mother being a Reyne, and Tytos' sisters married back into the house, or something like that. But this story is really great, and is reflected in the main series in Margaery Tyrell and Barbrey Ryswell Dustin.

[Maia]

Well, the Webber-Osgreys would be a somewhat bigger family, since the lands of Coldmoat and Standfast would be united now.

Only if they managed to produce a son, though. According to the pardon issued to Ser Eustace and rather unusually for Westeros, only a _male_ heir of his body could inherit his lands, which would escheat to the crown otherwise.

Gerold as a second son marrying Rohanne would have been a very good match, too.

But look at the identities of her known husbands and of her suitors in TSS. They are hardly from particularly prominent families and IIRC at least 2 of her husbands were old, to boot. If her lands were so crazily attractive to younger/collateral scions of powerful families, why wasn't she swamped with offers from them?

And, personally, I think that a second-oldest brother of a lord paramount normally has more power, prestige and wealth than a small, if prosperous lordship like Coldmoat can offer. Second fiddle or not.

Look at the kind of woman Kevan or Mace's uncles got. They are not necessarily good matches.

IIRC, we don't know who Mace's uncles are/were married to, as to Kevan, do we know that Swyfts are such a negligible House? And it may be his second marriage and given how he doted on his wife, his personal inclinations may have played a role. Tygett was married back into Marbrands, wasn't he?

Tyrek got an infant Lady, with Rohanne Gerold would have gotten a castle and lands of his own.

Yes, so? He was much farther down the line of succession when his marriage was made than Gerold was. Ditto Lancel. Also, Hayfords and Darrys used to be more important than Webbers were, so the lands are probably more extensive.