World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think Artos was a Lord - he was a great warrior who was highly distinguished, which is why he gets a statue in the crypts. You don't need to be a lord to get an epithet. I'm in Rhaenys' camp on this: I think he was probably Regent to his nephew (Edwyle) while he was still in his minority, but Edwyle was still Lord of Winterfell officially.

You need to be the Lord to be at the crypts what Ned did with placing Brandon and Lyanna there was a clear exception, or maybe Brandon died even minutes after Rickard so he was the Lord of WF for minutes. Now, if my idea is correct why Melantha would want revenge? Maybe because Artos usurped her daughter’s rights. So it is basically, Willam died while Melantha was pregnant with Edwyle and he already had a daughter but Artos usurped Willam’s daughter’s rights and took WF so Melantha had to have a son to “fight” him.

[Eagle of Seagard]

one question could it be that Ondrew Locke is the cousin of rickard stark?

Given his age (toothless, so I'd say 70 at least) he could be Rickard's uncle. This is probable, as the Starks more likely married into the main branch of the family, rather than a cadet one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

You need to be the Lord to be at the crypts what Ned did with placing Brandon and Lyanna there was a clear exception, or maybe Brandon died even minutes after Rickard so he was the Lord of WF for minutes. Now, if my idea is correct why Melantha would want revenge? Maybe because Artos usurped her daughter’s rights. So it is basically, Willam died while Melantha was pregnant with Edwyle and he already had a daughter but Artos usurped Willam’s daughter’s rights and took WF so Melantha had to have a son to “fight” him.

But perhaps not fight in the literal sense... But "fight" as in "take Winterfell back by law", because a son comes before an uncle. Even though a daughter does as well, a sons claim would be much stronger.

And also, having a son is one thing, but she would have had to wait for a long time before the boy would be old enough to fight on his own. But with a baby boy in your arms who has every right to Winterfell, you might be able to get all the norther lords rallied behind your cause..

[Maia]

Ran, will Lords of Winterfell and Black Brothers be denoted in the final version of the genealogical tree? With years of rule for the former, perhaps?

Anyway, lots of theories and assumptions debunked by this tree, i.e.:

That Tywin Lannister's marriage to his cousin meant that he was more interested in "purity of blood" than an average Westerosi and would have been secretly accepting of his twins incest

That Ned's mother was... a slew of improbable things, from a commoner to a Scagosi cannibal

That the Starks are traditionally more likely to acknowledge and raise their bastards than other Westerosi nobles, because honor! ;)

That Jon Snow would be repelled by the very notion of marriage to his aunt, because the Starks don't marry relatives (LOL).

That Brandon's/Ned's "southern marriages" were unprecedented. Though granted, the others we see here were not to other paramount families. But still. Royces and Corbrays worship the Seven too, as do Manderlys and maybe even Lockes (Ser Ondrew was a knight).

No Targaryens or Lannisters in the family tree so far.

So, it seems that the alliance against Ironborn during the reign of Aerys I didn't lead to a marriage alliance between Lannisters and Starks, as some speculated. And the "surprising Lannister ancestor" teased by Ran oh, these many moons ago, was not a Stark.

A bit disappointed that section on the Westerlands appears to be quite short.

Otherwise, great stuff and a really nice art (which was a pleasant surprise for me).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

But perhaps not fight in the literal sense... But "fight" as in "take Winterfell back by law", because a son comes before an uncle. Even though a daughter does as well, a sons claim would be much stronger.

And also, having a son is one thing, but she would have had to wait for a long time before the boy would be old enough to fight on his own. But with a baby boy in your arms who has every right to Winterfell, you might be able to get all the norther lords rallied behind your cause..

:agree: Someone could say that her daughter didn’t have a strong claim during war times when the people would need a leader. But a son even a newborn has stronger claim than a brother. What I believe is that Melantha was pregnant and naturally her daughter would become the Lady but Artos usurped her daughter’s rights and took WF, Melantha gives birth to a son and she gains support to take WF back.

[Veltigar]

Veltigar,

I really don't think that the Faceless Men can be compared to the mundane factions of Braavos. There may be fights, when a new Sealord is chosen, but we don't know yet what this means, exactly. There are fights, that much is clear, but whether this is show for the common people, or whether it actually means anything who is Sealord and who not from the POV of the House of Black and White (or the Iron Bank, if they are not the same) remains to be seen.

I don't remember the exact words of Syrio quote but he definitely wasn't talking about fights for sport (I'm sure the braavos fight duels in honor of their candidate, but that's not what SF is talking about either). SF said knives will come out and that to me clearly indicates political assassinations.

That alone should tell us that the election matters (the fact that the sons of the Sea lord of Braavos are considered good marriage material is another indicator). The FM live in Braavos and they have their HQ there. They are powerful sure, but even they aren't invincible. Therefore it is in there intrest to have a sympathetic sealord.

Now the FM are imo not directly involved in the normal fights and nor is the IBB. If these two juggernauts were to go toe to toe than the election would be a lot more costly and therefore they try to avoid getting caught up themselves. I do however think that both the IBB and the FM have factions (consisting of several important families) that are sympathetic to them. The FM would be the more traditional/conservative faction (heavily anti-Targaryen) and the IBB the more pragmatic one. It are these factions that vie for the position of Sealord. If the IBB supporters win than you get a Sealord that would grant Dany and Viserys shelter in Braavos and who even goes as far as to stand witness to a marriage contract between House Martell and House Targaryen. If the FM faction wins than you get a Sealord that expels them from the city.

That careful pact of non-interference will be treatened in tWoW. I think Arya's storyline will involve the FM and the IBB clashing for real.

From the stories of the Kindly Men I get the very strong vibe that the Faceless Men are the power at the very core of Braavos itself. Who should have protected this city from unwelcome discovery, if not the Faceless Men?

The fact that the IBB revealed the location of Braavos to the world should already tell you that the FM aren't the only powerful faction in existence. If the FM wanted to keep hidden, but the IBB forced them to come into the open, they are equals. And I rather doubt that the FM protected the city alone, there just aren't enough FM around to keep the secret hidden.

Officially, the Moonsingers led the escaped slaves to the place where Braavos was founded, but who helped the slaves escaped?

They helped themselves. Succesful slaverevolts aren't unheard of.

I'd not be surprised if we learned that at least one of the then few worshippers of Many-Faced God were on board of the ships that did escape (they would have to be, since they ended up in Braavos and build their temple there).

Probably, but there is always the off chance that they got there after the Doom.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

Marrying a lesser House from the North can be understood as firming up the loyalty of a bannerlord, but short of marrying for love, there is no reason why a marriage to a non-Paramount Southern House (with the exception of the super-powerful Hightowers and Redwynnes) would ever be logical.

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly? I think not.

[Silverscream]

It's hard for me to fully get into this family tree since it appears to be such an early draft. For instance, Cynthia "Cobray" doesn't exist in the BoD version of the Stark tree but was replaced with Alysanne Blackwood and her daughter Marian. I'm also unsure about the laws of succession that the Starks used since the birth order isn't in order.

As for the previous Sansa Stark, ever since the tree was updated for the BoD last year I can't help but wonder if it's an intentional parallel to the current Sansa's situation. As the daughter of Cregan's first son Rickon she should have been heir, but it passed over to Jonnel instead. And through Jon and Alys Karstark in ADWD, we know in the North daughters come before uncles. Of course in the end, a Brandon is the one whose line continues on...

Oh, and I like that of the Southern houses that the Starks marry into (not counting Corbray) they're both houses that take pride in their First Men heritage (Royce) or practice the religion of the Old Gods (Blackwood). And Rickard marrying his first cousin once removed does make it more suspect that he entertained the Tully/Baratheon marriages, since they're the first marriages to southern houses that have more Andal blood/practice the Seven instead of the Old Gods.

[Veltigar]

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

Marrying a lesser House from the North can be understood as firming up the loyalty of a bannerlord, but short of marrying for love, there is no reason why a marriage to a non-Paramount Southern House (with the exception of the super-powerful Hightowers and Redwynnes) would ever be logical.

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly?

I think the Royces and Corbrays are more powerful than we give them credit for

Both seem to have been good enough for Targaryens to marry

. As to Blackwood, I saw some speculation that the marriage between Stark and Blackwood happened when BR was hand (and de facto ruled the 7 kingdoms). Don't know if that was correct, but that might have been good enough.

[Eagle of Seagard]

Royces are second-most powerful house of the Vale and the same can be said of Blackwoods in the Riverlands for the time period. Makes sense to marry into those houses, particularly if there weren't any 'spare' Arryns or Tullys. Don't know about the Corbrays though...

[Free Northman Reborn]

Was it Stark heirs that married into these lesser Houses, or younger Stark siblings who later became heirs by accident when their elder siblings died prematurely?

[The hairy bear]

One of the things that surprise me the most about the Stark tree is that Bran's list of Lords/tombs in ACOK was apparently in order.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

The great number of Stark lords that died young is surprising. Willam was killed in Redbeard's ride in 262, and some of the previous lords in Dagon's incursions in 211. But there are a lot more deaths to explain. The Skagos rebellion may have been bloodier than I expected, and ther must be more incidents. Also, what about Lord Edwyle? Why he wasn't alive by the Rebellion? Could he have died in the war of the Nine Penny Kings?

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

Marrying a lesser House from the North can be understood as firming up the loyalty of a bannerlord, but short of marrying for love, there is no reason why a marriage to a non-Paramount Southern House (with the exception of the super-powerful Hightowers and Redwynnes) would ever be logical.

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly? I think not.

Notice the Starks ar marrying houses with a strong First Men heritage. Surely there are strong cultural ties between them, and you could consider them strategical allies.

Also, Corbray seems to be a very powerful House, and Royce is the most important in the Vale afer the Arryns. And of course the Blackwoods even still follow the Old Gods. Being close neighbours, I find the unions perfectly normal.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In addition, wasn't the MUSH tree updated for Dance of the dragons stuff only?

[Free Northman Reborn]

One of the things that surprise me the most about the Stark tree is that Bran's list of Lords/tombs in ACOK was apparently in order.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

The great number of Stark lords that died young is surprising. Willam was killed in Redbeard's ride in 262, and some of the previous lords in Dagon's incursions in 211. But there are a lot more deaths to explain. The Skagos rebellion may have been bloodier than I expected, and ther must be more incidents. Also, what about Lord Edwyle? Why he wasn't alive by the Rebellion? Could he have died in the war of the Nine Penny Kings?

Notice the Starks ar marrying houses with a strong First Men heritage. Surely there are strong cultural ties between them, and you could consider them strategical allies.

Also, Corbray seems to be a very powerful House, and Royce is the most important in the Vale afer the Arryns. And of course the Blackwoods even still follow the Old Gods. Being close neighbours, I find the unions perfectly normal.

Seems to me a lot more Stark lords die in battle than other Lords Paramount.

Are Stark lords maybe more prone to "swinging the sword" themselves in battle too, rather than leaving it to their bannermen like a Tywin Lannister would?

[The hairy bear]

Was it Stark heirs that married into these lesser Houses, or younger Stark siblings who later became heirs by accident when their elder siblings died prematurely?

Cregan Stark surely married Cynthya Corbray during his rule, since he should have been very young when he became lord. Probably the union was an outcome of the Dance with Dragons, as both the Corbrays and the Starks were on the black camp.

For the other two situations (Beron Stark+ Lorra Royce, and Willam Stark+Melanta Blackwood), they were probably already married before being lords. Both had older brothers that preceeded them.

ETA:

Are Stark lords maybe more prone to "swinging the sword" themselves in battle too, rather than leaving it to their bannermen like a Tywin Lannister would?

Seems likely. "The man who gives the sentence", and all that stuff.

[eggs]

not sure if this has been answered, but are the paintings supposed to be in-universe?

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

The Corbrays are an old house and have a VS sword. They must have been more powerful back when Cregan married one. The current Corbrays are poor according to the wiki.

Are the Wildlings a lot tougher than people in this forum give them credit for? Sure, they always lose, but they seem to be able to slay a King/Lord Stark before doing so.

[Annara Snow]

Beron was a busy guy.. But that does explain GRRMs statement as of all the Stark children (and widows) and where they came from, I think :)

No Targaryen ancestor for the Starks for as far as we can see.. Though with two unknown wives, the theories won't die out completely.

The tree doesn't go far enough in the past. Most theories about a Targaryen ancestor place the Stark-Targ marriage right after the conquest or in the time of Aenys or Jahaerys and Alysanne.

Otherwise, it seems that intermarrying with southern great houses as Rickard was trying to do with his kids was really unusual with the Starks.

I love the way the book is "written" by a maester, including such titles as "The Glorious Reign" :lol: and "Queer Customs of the South" (Dorne).

[Bael's Bastard]

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

Marrying a lesser House from the North can be understood as firming up the loyalty of a bannerlord, but short of marrying for love, there is no reason why a marriage to a non-Paramount Southern House (with the exception of the super-powerful Hightowers and Redwynnes) would ever be logical.

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly? I think not.

I don't think it's odd, the Vale and Riverlands both border the north, and who knows what the reasons were. And I don't think it is quite comparable to a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly, maybe more like a Lannister marrying with bannermen of the Reach or Riverlands.

[Ran]

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly? I think not.

You don't know what you're talking about. Wait and see. ;)