World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

[Colonel Green]

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

The Blackwoods are the only First Men-worshipping house in the south that we know of. I imagine there's a fair amount of history between them and the various northern houses. The Royces are a First Men house, and enormously prestigious.

Cregan was lord during the Dance of the Dragons, when the North and the Vale were on the same side. TPatQ ends with the note that "new Black armies were gathering" -- I'd theorize that Cregan came south with the full might of the North (instead of just the Dustins and Manderlys) and teamed up with Jeyne Arryn's Valemen (who largely sat out the Dance to date). Marrying a Corbray might have occurred as a result of that campaign.

[Free Northman Reborn]

You don't know what you're talking about. Wait and see. ;)

AH!!! The surprising Lannister ancestor unveiled!

[Maia]

Are Stark lords maybe more prone to "swinging the sword" themselves in battle too, rather than leaving it to their bannermen like a Tywin Lannister would?

Tywin Lannister did fight in battles and so did his brother Kevan. They just didn't take command of the vanguard during the War of Five Kings. Maybe Starks used to do so on a regular basis? Maybe they tended to be foolhardy? Who knows?

But this family tree underlines again how stupid and dangerous from historical perspective it was for Benjen to join NW with so few Starks remaining. Baby Robb or even Robb and Sansa in no way properly secured the Stark line. Not even if you throw Jon in too. There has to be more to his taking the black.

AH!!! The surprising Lannister ancestor unveiled!

So, a Manderly, I guess? That's where poor Tytos and Genna got their corpulence from?

[Annara Snow]

A couple more observations about the Stark family tree:

Ned's great-grandmother was Melantha Blackwood. So, the current Starks are distantly related to Bloodraven.

Speaking of Northern and Southern names: Alysanne seems popular in both North and South. In the Stark family tree, among a bunch of Northern names, we find a daughter of Beron Stark and Lorra Royce called Alysanne. And there's also Alysanne Mormont, but a lot of southern lords also had daughters called Alysanne. A result of the popularity of the Good Queen Alysanne? Or the song "Alysanne"? In any case, Alysanne does not sound like a Targaryen name, so it's Alysanne Targaryen who was unusually named. It's definitely a Westerosi name; and it seems popular all over Westeros.

[Arataniello]

not sure if this has been answered, but are the paintings supposed to be in-universe?

I am going to guess that they are not. They are simply illustrations for the World book, not illustrations of painting from within Westeros.

[The hairy bear]

You don't know what you're talking about. Wait and see. ;)

:commie: The Lannisters have Northern blood! :commie: The Lannisters have Northern blood! :commie:

It can't be Stark. It can't be Karstark or Lord Rickard would have been accused of kinslaying too. I suppose that Cersei or Wyman would ahve mentioned it sometime if it was Manderly. When he is afraid of the Lannister menace, Eddard sent Tallhart and Glover to defend the Moat, so that would discard them too.

Bolton perhaps? That'd be really cool! Or Rhyswell.

[Lord Varys]

On the She-Wolves thing:

I imagine if Norrey-Stark Rickon was the elder son, who was passed over in favor of the Stark-Stark Brandon, due to the fact that he had given birth to daughters, then this could indeed have been the groundwork of a sort of squabble for succession during Beron's time, especially if Edric Stark's wife was still around at that time, who was one of Rickon Stark's daughters.

She may have tried to have her children follow Beron, passing over his young sons.

[Mithras]

You need to be the Lord to be at the crypts what Ned did with placing Brandon and Lyanna there was a clear exception, or maybe Brandon died even minutes after Rickard so he was the Lord of WF for minutes. Now, if my idea is correct why Melantha would want revenge? Maybe because Artos usurped her daughter’s rights. So it is basically, Willam died while Melantha was pregnant with Edwyle and he already had a daughter but Artos usurped Willam’s daughter’s rights and took WF so Melantha had to have a son to “fight” him.

In your scenario, why would Edwyle keep/build the statue of his uncle who usurped his sister's rights? Artos was furious and sad to lose his brother William. I don't think he would go bad after his death. Besides, in Bran's catalog, Artos is specifically not given the title Lord. It has been discussed in several threads that he ruled as the regent of his nephew and because of his prowess and avenging his father, Edwyle made a statue of him.

:agree: Someone could say that her daughter didn’t have a strong claim during war times when the people would need a leader. But a son even a newborn has stronger claim than a brother. What I believe is that Melantha was pregnant and naturally her daughter would become the Lady but Artos usurped her daughter’s rights and took WF, Melantha gives birth to a son and she gains support to take WF back.

This usurpation never took place.

I find it strange that Starks would marry into lesser Houses of the South. What conceivable gain is there in marrying a Stark into the Royce, Corbray or Blackwood lines?

Marrying a lesser House from the North can be understood as firming up the loyalty of a bannerlord, but short of marrying for love, there is no reason why a marriage to a non-Paramount Southern House (with the exception of the super-powerful Hightowers and Redwynnes) would ever be logical.

Think of the opposite scenario: Would you ever find a Lannister marrying a Karstark or Manderly? I think not.

Blackwoods, Royces, Corbrays are ancient and proud Houses. Marrying them does no harm to Starks. But marrying with the top class Houses, that might prove troublesome because at a possible conflict, they can present a serious threat to House Stark and claim Winterfell by blood.

I think this is the same for all Paramount Houses. As for the Lannisters, they surely marrid to their bannermen including Plumms and that way the Lannisters acquired a drop of blood of the dragon (or two) ;)

One of the things that surprise me the most about the Stark tree is that Bran's list of Lords/tombs in ACOK was apparently in order.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

The great number of Stark lords that died young is surprising. Willam was killed in Redbeard's ride in 262, and some of the previous lords in Dagon's incursions in 211. But there are a lot more deaths to explain. The Skagos rebellion may have been bloodier than I expected, and ther must be more incidents. Also, what about Lord Edwyle? Why he wasn't alive by the Rebellion? Could he have died in the war of the Nine Penny Kings?

Notice the Starks ar marrying houses with a strong First Men heritage. Surely there are strong cultural ties between them, and you could consider them strategical allies.

Also, Corbray seems to be a very powerful House, and Royce is the most important in the Vale afer the Arryns. And of course the Blackwoods even still follow the Old Gods. Being close neighbours, I find the unions perfectly normal.

I always thought Bran's catalogue was chronological. But there is only one problem. The Lordship passed from Cregan to Brandon. Then Brandon's two brothers became the Lords of Winterfell only to be succeeded by Brandon's son Rodwell.

This does not make much sense unless while Rodwell was in the belly of his mother, Barth and Jonnel died in a close succession.

The Corbrays are an old house and have a VS sword. They must have been more powerful back when Cregan married one. The current Corbrays are poor according to the wiki.

Are the Wildlings a lot tougher than people in this forum give them credit for? Sure, they always lose, but they seem to be able to slay a King/Lord Stark before doing so.

This bugs me as well. Whenever a problem happens in the North, a Stark Lord/King is killed.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

In your scenario, why would Edwyle keep/build the statue of his uncle who usurped his sister's rights? Artos was furious and sad to lose his brother William. I don't think he would go bad after his death. Besides, in Bran's catalog, Artos is specifically not given the title Lord. It has been discussed in several threads that he ruled as the regent of his nephew and because of his prowess and avenging his father, Edwyle made a statue of him.

As I said before I believe that if the pregnant woman in Bran's dream is Melantha then that is what happened. It's possible that I am wrong but it's possible that I am right. Even if Artos had usurped Melantha's children rights and ruled as lord that doesn't mean that the winner at the end would count him as a Lord. Look what happened at Dance Aegon's side never counted Rhaenyra as a Queen.

This usurpation never took place.

You don't know that.

[Arataniello]

One of the things that surprise me the most about the Stark tree is that Bran's list of Lords/tombs in ACOK was apparently in order.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

If they ARE listed in order in the above quote, then the Stark family tree (as it currently stands in this working copy of the World book) is as Ran states, all over the place, and will be very hard to interpret if it stays this way in the final books.

For instance, the order of lords in one particular generation is Jonnel, then Barth, then Brandon, but the tree shows Brandon as the "eldest" (furthest left), then Jonnel, then Barthogan.

But as Ran says, this is not final, and the format is dictated by the size constraints of the page size in the book itself.

[maidenandwarrior]

:commie: The Lannisters have Northern blood! :commie: The Lannisters have Northern blood! :commie:

It can't be Stark. It can't be Karstark or Lord Rickard would have been accused of kinslaying too. I suppose that Cersei or Wyman would ahve mentioned it sometime if it was Manderly. When he is afraid of the Lannister menace, Eddard sent Tallhart and Glover to defend the Moat, so that would discard them too.

Bolton perhaps? That'd be really cool! Or Rhyswell.

Leona Woolfield has yellow hair. Not to mention the Manderlys have a Lannister maester.

[The hairy bear]

Leona Woolfield has yellow hair. Not to mention the Manderlys have a Lannister maester.

Nice thought about the maester. I guess Manderly is still a possibility.

Leona's hair shouldn't really matter, I think. We are looking for Lannister ancestors, not Lannister descendants. And the Wooldfields seem to be too minor a house to marry to a Lannister.

[History of Westeros]

I don't think Artos was a Lord - he was a great warrior who was highly distinguished, which is why he gets a statue in the crypts. You don't need to be a lord to get an epithet. I'm in Rhaenys' camp on this: I think he was probably Regent to his nephew (Edwyle) while he was still in his minority, but Edwyle was still Lord of Winterfell officially.

As posted in the Starks Timeline thread, this almost has to be correct... Artos was never Lord. I've pointed out numerous reasons for this, but the tree makes it all but certain. There's no way for the lordship to pass from Willam to Artos, as Willam had sons.

That there is a statue of Artos probably means at least two things.

1) Ned wasn't such a huge tradition breaker. This fits with his character.

2) Artos was extremely well liked by Edwyle, who would've been the one to have his statue commissioned.

[History of Westeros]

One of the things that surprise me the most about the Stark tree is that Bran's list of Lords/tombs in ACOK was apparently in order.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

The great number of Stark lords that died young is surprising. Willam was killed in Redbeard's ride in 262, and some of the previous lords in Dagon's incursions in 211. But there are a lot more deaths to explain. The Skagos rebellion may have been bloodier than I expected, and ther must be more incidents. Also, what about Lord Edwyle? Why he wasn't alive by the Rebellion? Could he have died in the war of the Nine Penny Kings?

Notice the Starks ar marrying houses with a strong First Men heritage. Surely there are strong cultural ties between them, and you could consider them strategical allies.

Also, Corbray seems to be a very powerful House, and Royce is the most important in the Vale afer the Arryns. And of course the Blackwoods even still follow the Old Gods. Being close neighbours, I find the unions perfectly normal.

Many of us who studied the statues scene and worked on the Stark genealogy were pretty confident that the statues were in order (as many old threads show) but it is super awesome to have confirmation.

Donnor probably died to the Ironborn as well, and possibly some of his younger brothers died to them before he did (or some would've been Lords too).

Completely agree on the Vale marriages.

Also, I would guess that plenty of families, Northern or not, are willing to marry House Manderly. They are rich. Enough said. :)

[The hairy bear]

On the She-Wolves thing:

I imagine if Norrey-Stark Rickon was the elder son, who was passed over in favor of the Stark-Stark Brandon, due to the fact that he had given birth to daughters, then this could indeed have been the groundwork of a sort of squabble for succession during Beron's time, especially if Edric Stark's wife was still around at that time, who was one of Rickon Stark's daughters.

She may have tried to have her children follow Beron, passing over his young sons.

If Lynara Stark descended from a previous Lord Stark, I think Beron's claim would be considered superior as both branches would come through female lines, but Beron's also came through male line. Also, I'm sure Cregan clearly established that Jonnel should rule after him (Reckon must have died before his father. The MUSH suggests that t was during the conquest of Dorne).

I'm really intrgued to know what happened with Edric and Serena's descendants. They have to be somewhere. I hope the World Book says something on them and does not leave us like that.

I always thought Bran's catalogue was chronological. But there is only one problem. The Lordship passed from Cregan to Brandon. Then Brandon's two brothers became the Lords of Winterfell only to be succeeded by Brandon's son Rodwell.

This does not make much sense unless while Rodwell was in the belly of his mother, Barth and Jonnel died in a close succession.

The fact that both Barth and Jonnel died without offspring, that Barth is called Blacksword, and that Jonnel lost an eye, suggest that those were very violent times (Skagos rebellion is the only guess I can come up with), so perhaps it was agreed that an infant lord was not the best idea at the time.

[maidenandwarrior]

Nice thought about the maester. I guess Manderly is still a possibility.

Leona's hair shouldn't really matter, I think. We are looking for Lannister ancestors, not Lannister descendants. And the Wooldfields seem to be too minor a house to marry to a Lannister.

No, I meant the yellow hair in the sense of, that's why the Lannisters don't have more Northern features if their ancestor is a Woolfield. Interesting that her name is Leona too.

Probably a Manderly though. Remember in AGOT when Tyrion said that fishermen see mermen off the coast of the Westerlands? Heh. Oh, GRRM...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A couple more observations about the Stark family tree:

Ned's great-grandmother was Melantha Blackwood. So, the current Starks are distantly related to Bloodraven.

Speaking of Northern and Southern names: Alysanne seems popular in both North and South. In the Stark family tree, among a bunch of Northern names, we find a daughter of Beron Stark and Lorra Royce called Alysanne. And there's also Alysanne Mormont, but a lot of southern lords also had daughters called Alysanne. A result of the popularity of the Good Queen Alysanne? Or the song "Alysanne"? In any case, Alysanne does not sound like a Targaryen name, so it's Alysanne Targaryen who was unusually named. It's definitely a Westerosi name; and it seems popular all over Westeros.

Distantly related in the sense that Bloodraven descents from the same guy that Rickard/Ned/Robb/Bran etc. descend from.

But that might have influenced their ability to warg, such a shared ancestor (no matter how distant)... :)

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

One of the things that surprise me the most about the Stark tree is that Bran's list of Lords/tombs in ACOK was apparently in order.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight.

The great number of Stark lords that died young is surprising. Willam was killed in Redbeard's ride in 262, and some of the previous lords in Dagon's incursions in 211. But there are a lot more deaths to explain. The Skagos rebellion may have been bloodier than I expected, and ther must be more incidents. Also, what about Lord Edwyle? Why he wasn't alive by the Rebellion? Could he have died in the war of the Nine Penny Kings?

Notice the Starks ar marrying houses with a strong First Men heritage. Surely there are strong cultural ties between them, and you could consider them strategical allies.

Also, Corbray seems to be a very powerful House, and Royce is the most important in the Vale afer the Arryns. And of course the Blackwoods even still follow the Old Gods. Being close neighbours, I find the unions perfectly normal.

Even Rickard's proposed matches. Tully and Baratheon (through the Durrandons) blood is First Men blood. No more or less tainted than Blackwood and Royce these days. Tully likely have Blackwood and Bracken blood in them. I have to wonder if they got Stark blood from when Sansa Stark married a Blackwood? (not noted here BTW) There was no match to the Andal Arryns. That is why the Corbray match stands out, there is nothing to say they are of First Men descent in the main line.

[History of Westeros]

Even Rickard's proposed matches. Tully and Baratheon (through the Durrandons) blood is First Men blood. No more or less tainted than Blackwood and Royce these days. Tully likely have Blackwood and Bracken blood in them. I have to wonder if they got Stark blood from when Sansa Stark married a Blackwood? (not noted here BTW) There was no match to the Andal Arryns. That is why the Corbray match stands out, there is nothing to say they are of First Men descent in the main line.

Good call, and we should probably suspect this in reverse. Given your point that all these marriages were to First Men blood-ed houses, the Corbrays quite possibly have some significant First Men blood in their heritage. Good chance it's a major reason why the match was made in the first place. They are probably one of the many families who, when taken over by the Andals, married their conquerors. So the blood remains.

[History of Westeros]

The fact that both Barth and Jonnel died without offspring, that Barth is called Blacksword, and that Jonnel lost an eye, suggest that those were very violent times (Skagos rebellion is the only guess I can come up with), so perhaps it was agreed that an infant lord was not the best idea at the time.

I agree, but I don't think the Skagos rebellion fits what we know about the timeline. Supposedly that was around the turn of the century, and since Cregan was around during the Dance...

The Dance was 129-131, so if the Skagos Rebellion was ~200, I think we're looking at at least one generation past Cregan's sons.

I'm going to guess Rodwell. My original guess a long time ago was his father Brandon, and that's still possible. Just that Brandon would be on the older side. I like the fit with Rodwell a little better since he had no issue (despite marrying a Manderly), and dying to the Skaggs as a young man might explain the lack of heirs.

After Rodwell comes Beron, who definitively died to the Ironborn. So it can't be Beron or anyone after, unless the Skagos rebellion date is off.

Barth Blacksword almost sounds villanous. That doesn't sound like a "good guy" Stark name.