World of Ice and Fire extract to be available

[Lord Varys]

On the dates:

That remains to be seen. Yandel clearly is a guy who trust stuff that has been written down in letters, but what's going to be revealed in Bran's chapters in the coming novels are what truly happened back then.

We have to keep in mind that most - if not all - Valyrian scrolls were destroyed during the Doom, which in turn is over four hundred years in the past when Yandel writes his history.

I don't want to rewrite the history - in fact, I'm a little bit irritated that the Table of Contents seem to confirm that the Valyrians rose to power before the Andals invaded Westeros - but I'd not be surprised one bit if Proto-Valyrians (i.e. a people using the same or similar magic than the Valyrians later used to build their empire) participated in the War for the Dawn during the Long Night.

That said, the fact that the Iron Bank of all factions of Braavos approached the Valyrians, made an offer of peace and friendship, and even compensated the Freehold for the lost ships and all, feels very fishy to me. Especially the fact that this bank was already very powerful and influential shortly before the Doom of Valyria is telling. Could that be a hint that the Iron Bank officials lured the Valyrians into a false sense of security, and then the Faceless Men struck and caused the Doom? If the House of Black and White had anything to do with it, they would have to go to Valyria and be close to the volcanoes to trigger whatever destroyed the peninsula...

By the way:

Ran, can you give us any clue whether Yandel will show up in one of Samwell's later chapters? Has GRRM told you anything about that? He could still be alive, and would most likely still hang out at the Citadel, since he did only complete his book during the reign of King Tommen I...

And the Preface is really good scholarly prose. That was the kind of style I was hoping for. Thanks!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

An idea that I had after seeing the family tree.

Since Artos was Willam’s younger brother but became the Lord after him could the pregnant woman in Bran’s dream be Melantha, or Lyanne?

[AzureOwl]

One thing is for sure... Yandel is a huge suckup.

I mean, "The Glorious Reign"? At least try to pretend to be objective, dude. ;)

[Free Northman Reborn]

Valyrians were primitive shepherds back when Old Ghis was an old Empire. If there were Valyrians around during the Long Night their magic was probably limited to reading Sheep's entrails to learn if the Big Sky God will make that "bright yellow thing that makes light" rise above the horizon tomorrow morning.

[Veltigar]

That said, the fact that the Iron Bank of all factions of Braavos approached the Valyrians, made an offer of peace and friendship, and even compensated the Freehold for the lost ships and all, feels very fishy to me. Especially the fact that this bank was already very powerful and influential shortly before the Doom of Valyria is telling. Could that be a hint that the Iron Bank officials lured the Valyrians into a false sense of security, and then the Faceless Men struck and caused the Doom? If the House of Black and White had anything to do with it, they would have to go to Valyria and be close to the volcanoes to trigger whatever destroyed the peninsula...

I would say the opposite, in my opinion this more or less rules out that the FM and the IBB are the same entity. The IBB are not diametrically opposed to the Valyrians, and are more than happy to colaborate with them if that seems profitable (e.g. the Uncloaking, the years of Blood, Dance of Dragons, Dany and Viserys finding shelter in a mance of the Sealord). The FM, more likely than not, caused the Doom and hate the Valyrians.

When you combine that with the fact that with every election of a new Sealord, knives are drawn and blood is spilled, we seem to have a very strong indication that there are two political factions in Braavos. If the IBB and the FM were one and the same than whoever they backed would undoubtedly win the election with ease.

If they are not and are actually opposed to one another - which makes the most sense anyway, a bank and a death cult don't have compatable goals (death cults are usually nicer :p ) - than you can perfectly explain so many things. Why there is a fight surrounding the election of Sealord, why one Sealord hosted Dany and Viserys while the other drove them away, why Syrio wasn't in Braavos anymore, etc.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

An idea that I had after seeing the family tree.

Since Artos was Willam’s younger brother but became the Lord after him could the pregnant woman in Bran’s dream be Melantha, or Lyanne?

Then I'd say Melanthe, since I suspect the Glover marriage was the first marriage, and Lyanne Glover died birthing Brandon (for whom Old Nan came to Winterfell). If Melanthe was still pregnant at the time of the Battle, in 226AC, then Edwyle would have been born 226/227AC. With Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) having been born in 261/262AC, that would place Rickards birth somewhere in the middle, close to 244AC. That could work.

[the Scorpion Knight]

one question could it be that Ondrew Locke is the cousin of rickard stark?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Then I'd say Melanthe, since I suspect the Glover marriage was the first marriage, and Lyanne Glover died birthing Brandon (for whom Old Nan came to Winterfell). If Melanthe was still pregnant at the time of the Battle, in 226AC, then Edwyle would have been born 226/227AC. With Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) having been born in 261/262AC, that would place Rickards birth somewhere in the middle, close to 244AC. That could work.

It makes sense and I think that it makes more sense if his sister was older, and not twins, because if she was younger then Melantha wouldn’t prayed for a son. That means that when Artos took WF Melantha prayed for a son and Edwyle was born.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It makes sense and I think that it makes more sense if his sister was older, and not twins, because if she was younger then Melantha wouldn’t prayed for a son. That means that when Artos took WF Melantha prayed for a son and Edwyle was born.

Could very well be. Do we know for certain that Artos was a Lord of Winterfell? I believe so, right? He was burried in the crypts, with only Lords of Winterfell (and Brandon and Lyanna).

Artos's reign as Lord of Winterfell might have been a short few months, from Willams death until Edwyle's birth. After that, Artos most likely was the Regent of Winterfell until Edwyle was old enough himself to rule.

[Lord Varys]

Veltigar,

I really don't think that the Faceless Men can be compared to the mundane factions of Braavos. There may be fights, when a new Sealord is chosen, but we don't know yet what this means, exactly. There are fights, that much is clear, but whether this is show for the common people, or whether it actually means anything who is Sealord and who not from the POV of the House of Black and White (or the Iron Bank, if they are not the same) remains to be seen.

From the stories of the Kindly Men I get the very strong vibe that the Faceless Men are the power at the very core of Braavos itself. Who should have protected this city from unwelcome discovery, if not the Faceless Men? Officially, the Moonsingers led the escaped slaves to the place where Braavos was founded, but who helped the slaves escaped? I'd not be surprised if we learned that at least one of the then few worshippers of Many-Faced God were on board of the ships that did escape (they would have to be, since they ended up in Braavos and build their temple there).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Could very well be. Do we know for certain that Artos was a Lord of Winterfell? I believe so, right? He was burried in the crypts, with only Lords of Winterfell (and Brandon and Lyanna).

Artos's reign as Lord of Winterfell might have been a short few months, from Willams death until Edwyle's birth. After that, Artos most likely was the Regent of Winterfell until Edwyle was old enough himself to rule.

Yes he was, he was named Artos the Implacable. However I don’t think that he just gave WF back to Edwyle. I believe that he usurped the Lordship and that is why Melantha prays for a son.

[Ran]

One thing is for sure... Yandel is a huge suckup.

I mean, "The Glorious Reign"? At least try to pretend to be objective, dude. ;)

No such thing as objective history... especially when you're presenting a book to a king and want to discuss his reign, and maybe get his patronage. ;)

[Free Northman Reborn]

No such thing as objective history... especially when you're presenting a book to a king and want to discuss his reign, and maybe get his patronage. ;)

Ran. Is that the extent of the Hardhome coverage or is there more in the book itself?

[Mithras]

Then I'd say Melanthe, since I suspect the Glover marriage was the first marriage, and Lyanne Glover died birthing Brandon (for whom Old Nan came to Winterfell). If Melanthe was still pregnant at the time of the Battle, in 226AC, then Edwyle would have been born 226/227AC. With Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) having been born in 261/262AC, that would place Rickards birth somewhere in the middle, close to 244AC. That could work.

But even as an infant, Brandon should have been Lord Stark in this case. We see that Lord William is succeeded by Lord Edwyle, therefore Edwyle must be the eldest son of William.

I am inclined take Old Nan as the pregnant woman, and the reason might be she was deceived and spurned by a crow. She said all crows are liars.

[RumHam]

I am inclined take Old Nan as the pregnant woman, and the reason might be she was deceived and spurned by a crow. She said all crows are liars.

She was clearly talking about the birds though. Does anyone south of the wall even call them crows? I thought that was a wildling thing.

[Eagle of Seagard]

Yes he was, he was named Artos the Implacable. However I don’t think that he just gave WF back to Edwyle. I believe that he usurped the Lordship and that is why Melantha prays for a son.

I don't think Artos was a Lord - he was a great warrior who was highly distinguished, which is why he gets a statue in the crypts. You don't need to be a lord to get an epithet. I'm in Rhaenys' camp on this: I think he was probably Regent to his nephew (Edwyle) while he was still in his minority, but Edwyle was still Lord of Winterfell officially.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But even as an infant, Brandon should have been Lord Stark in this case. We see that Lord William is succeeded by Lord Edwyle, therefore Edwyle must be the eldest son of William.

I am inclined take Old Nan as the pregnant woman, and the reason might be she was deceived and spurned by a crow. She said all crows are liars.

Brandon would not have been a lord if he had died before Willam...

In the scenario I envision, Willam was married, his wife got pregnant, birthed a son (Brandon), but died herself. Brandon died three years later. Meanwhile, Willam got remarried, had a daughter, got his wife pregnant for a second time, went off the the Battle against Raymund Redbeard, and died, whilst his second wife was still pregnant with their second child, who would be Edwyle.

[Mithras]

She was clearly talking about the birds though. Does anyone south of the wall even call them crows? I thought that was a wildling thing.

I am also inclined to take Old Nan as a wildling who was captured at the Battle of Longlake :)

Osha liked to swim naked in the pools and she probably prayed to the heart tree as well.

I think the term crow is used south of the Wall (Old Nan does obviously, what else she could be talking about). But black crow is argued to be wildling specific only, which I personally do have a hard time to believe.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am also inclined to take Old Nan as a wildling who was captured at the Battle of Longlake :)

Osha liked to swim naked in the pools and she probably prayed to the heart tree as well.

I think the term crow is used south of the Wall (Old Nan does obviously, what else she could be talking about). But black crow is argued to be wildling specific only, which I personally do have a hard time to believe.

But her respons is to Bran telling her an actual crow with three eyes had been talking to him.. She's talking about the birds, IMO.

[Eagle of Seagard]

Something I wonder about is why Edric Stark's children didn't inherit Winterfell. According to the updated info for the MUSH (not 100% canon, I know, but pretty good for the main characters around at the time), Edric was born 151AC, a year after Jonnel and quite a few before Barth and Brandon in 158 and 160, respectively. After Jonnel dies childless the seat should pass to Edric's children (assuming Edric had predeceased his brother). Even if both his sons died young or joined the Night's Watch, he has two married daughters who could've made a claim. Perhaps they did and are amongst the She-Wolves... Alternatively, maybe the Umber and Cerwyn they married were Lords or heirs of their houses, and it does not seem to be the done thing to hold two seats in Westeros. Maybe they got to be Ladies of Last Hearth and Cerwyn and so forfeited their claim on the Ladyship of Winterfell??