Robb's worst betrayals came from his aunt and his grandfather

[Morienthar]

You can't go around hanging every bannermen who does mucks something up,You keep doing that you will eventually have a rebellion on your hands.

[Fat Mac]

Well regarding the Freys, Hoster was probably just glad they didn't rebel against him in the first place. He had to deal with the Darrys, Goodbrooks, Rygers and Mootons if I'm correct, so he probably didn't care much what Walder did as long as he didn't go against him.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You can't go around hanging every bannermen who does mucks something up,You keep doing that you will eventually have a rebellion on your hands....

.. or no bannerman.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

.. or no bannerman.

Or both. It is known.

[Light a wight tonight]

Hoster Tully not hanging Lord Walder for showing up late at the Trident was a betrayal of the yet-unborn Robb? The yet-unborn Robb who would never have been King in the North under any circumstance predictable at that time? Riiiiiight!

[mindchap]

Hindsight ain't it great! :)

It's all the Firstmen's fault. They shoulda stayed in Essos.

[LoyalStarkBannerman]

Theon never betrayed Robb. Went to Balon did his best to convince him to back Robb (which was shit but nevermind) and then fought for his father.

Is this a joke? Theon absolutely betrayed Robb. His intimate knowledge of Winterfell was what allowed the Ironborn to take it. You think the Ironborn would've attacked Winterfell without Theon's advice? No way. He knew Rodrik Cassel. Knew the man would abandon Winterfell to aid his nearby allies. Knew he'd leave just a couple men to hold the castle.

Robb sent Theon to Balon in good faith, assuming Theon was his steadfast friend and ally. Theon could have chosen to raid the Stony Shore. Or to move on to Torrhen's Square. He specifically targeted Winterfell. He made the entire world think he murdered Bran and Rickon. Theon's actions were a betrayal not just to Robb, but to the Stark family, and to the entire North. Theon's actions enabled Ramsay to sack Winterfell. Theon's actions are the direct cause of Robb's grief when he took the Crag. Theon betrayed Robb.

---

Also, Cat betrayed Robb by releasing Jaime. That doesn't make her evil. It doesn't make her a bad person. But it was a betrayal.

Lysa is directly responsible for causing the tension between the Starks and Lannisters by murdering Jon Arryn and then writing a letter to Catelyn saying it was the Lannisters. You can't absolve her of her crimes simply because she was "Littlefinger's catspaw." She made the decision to kill Jon Arryn. Made the decision to write that letter.

You can't absolve Robb of his oath-breaking. Even though he was in grief, he still went against his word. We sympathize with him because we understand the situation. But it does not wipe away his faults.

You can't absolve Catelyn of her betrayal. Even though she was in grief, she went against her king and committed treason. We sympathize with her because we understand the situation. But it does not wipe away her faults.

Lysa's a cunt. I don't sympathize with that loony tune.

[mindchap]

Theon may not have betrayed Robb to Balon, but he definitely betrayed him with Winterfell. That was all his own doing. And :agree:

[Barty]

Not sending troops when called is treason and deserves the death sentence. When the great Jon threatened to take his men home he wasn't threatening to attack Robb or Winterfell -he was just stating that he is not sending his men south and Robb responds by telling him that when he is done with the Lannisters he would come back North and hang the greatJon for oathbreaking.

This is what Hoster should have done to Walder Frey.

Lysa is just a treacherous lying weasel and deserved to be married to Ramsay.

[Barty]

Thought it was more of an evil Lysa thread.

Without Cat Robb does not get across the Twins. Even if he did he would lose most of the foot because no one would tell him no to the Greatjon.

why doesn't Robb get across?? He knew he could not attack the twins - he was ready to negotiate. He would have just sent in another man to bring terms(like the Blackfish - who probably would have gotten sweeter terms out of walder Frey IMO).And Robb still ends up losing the majority of his foot - at least if he had sent the greatJon the Lannisters would have paid a higher price to destroy that army.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

why doesn't Robb get across?? He knew he could not attack the twins - he was ready to negotiate. He would have just sent in another man to bring terms(like the Blackfish - who probably would have gotten sweeter terms out of walder Frey IMO).And Robb still ends up losing the majority of his foot - at least if he had sent the greatJon the Lannisters would have paid a higher price to destroy that army.

And could just as easily got worse terms. Besides, he'd known Robb for only a few days and as a Riverlander was in no position to speak for the North and what they could and could not offer.

[Grip]

I don't blame either for what happened to Robb, as others has said unruly bannermen are to be expected. Hoster certainly never seems to have trusted Frey that much, but to hang him for coming late (deliberately)? Seems a bit harsh. So no, Hoster did not betray Robb. And Lysa had the Vale to think about, while I would have wanted her to send her knights to war I cant really blame her either. She is a Tully, true, but also an Arryn and the Regent of the Vale.

[Barty]

And could just as easily got worse terms. Besides, he'd known Robb for only a few days and as a Riverlander was in no position to speak for the North and what they could and could not offer.

He is not supposed to offer anything - he goes and asks Walder Frey what he wants and then haggles a bit but in the end bringing the terms to Robb. Robb can now agree or disagree - the Blackfish cannot agree to any terms, he can only haggle and bring the terms set by Walder Frey to Robb. Same as what Cat did.The Blackfish is also a river Lander,like you said, and hence he knows what kind of man Walder Frey is and what he wants. By sending Cat Robb made himself look weak in front of Frey - a boy hiding behind his mother's skirts.

[Faint]

It wasn't Lysa's chief intention to ensure the Vale was well prepared for Winter, but that's nonetheless what has happened as a result of her decision not to participate in the war. Not only that, but with the Riverlands, Westerlands, North and Stormlands all losing huge parts of their crops, there is still a fertile area ready to provide food to the soon to be starving populace.

:agree:

In any case, Lysa swore no oaths to Robb Stark, so there was no betrayal.

[Barty]

I don't blame either for what happened to Robb, as others has said unruly bannermen are to be expected. Hoster certainly never seems to have trusted Frey that much, but to hang him for coming late (deliberately)? Seems a bit harsh. So no, Hoster did not betray Robb. And Lysa had the Vale to think about, while I would have wanted her to send her knights to war I cant really blame her either. She is a Tully, true, but also an Arryn and the Regent of the Vale.

Lysa was perfectly safe - she could have sent half the Vale's army and the kept the remaining half with herself and it would have been more than enough to defend the impenetrable bloody gate. And the Vale was the last thing on her mind - she did not send her army because LF ordered her not to.IMO she is as bad as a kinslayer - worse if that is possible.

[Grip]

Lysa was perfectly safe - she could have sent half the Vale's army and the kept the remaining half with herself and it would have been more than enough to defend the impenetrable bloody gate. And the Vale was the last thing on her mind - she did not send her army because LF ordered her not to.IMO she is as bad as a kinslayer - worse if that is possible.

But we know how Lysa thinks, she wouldn't feel safe unless all her knights were around her. Is this a normal reaction? Perhaps not but given what we know of Lysa it is not unexpected. Otherwise she could/should have sent forces to help Riverrun and the Riverlands, and limit it to that.

[Barty]

:agree:

In any case, Lysa swore no oaths to Robb Stark, so there was no betrayal.

Does family mean nothing??? She sat behind her walls while her brother and father and sister fought for their lives - fought in a war which she had started by sending that fake letter to Cat.She was a traitor to her King and husband. She might not be a traitor to Robb the King but she was a traitor to her family by deliberately and knowingly getting them into a war which destroyed them.

[MasterJack]

Lysa was perfectly safe - she could have sent half the Vale's army and the kept the remaining half with herself and it would have been more than enough to defend the impenetrable bloody gate. And the Vale was the last thing on her mind - she did not send her army because LF ordered her not to.IMO she is as bad as a kinslayer - worse if that is possible.

Wow, no. She owed nothing to Robb. She protected her people with selfish reasoning but even a sane person would have no reason to help him. She is rulling Vale as a Regent for her son(an Arryn), being the Aunt of Robb was in no way an obligation to help him.

[Northern Heir]

Lord of Beyond the Wall

Freerider

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Posted Yesterday, 08:19 PM

I blame Robb for betraying Walder Frey and his own kingdom when he choose lust over duty.

I really don't believe it is Robb alone at fault he does hold the blame of his own death. Marrying Jayne and breaking his vow to the Frey's is the reason he is dead but his uncle not killing Walder for the issue where he didn't show at the Trident and Lysa starting the war and then abandoning her nephew those were the betrayals that sealed his fate.

[Barty]

But we know how Lysa thinks, she wouldn't feel safe unless all her knights were around her. Is this a normal reaction? Perhaps not but given what we know of Lysa it is not unexpected. Otherwise she could/should have sent forces to help Riverrun and the Riverlands, and limit it to that.

So basically you are saying that we should not blame Lysa because she was a coward?? I am blaming her for being a coward while you are excusing her actions because she was a coward. Either way cowardice in war is punished via death.