Robb's worst betrayals came from his aunt and his grandfather

[Barty]

Tywin is merciful to those who bend the knee and ruthless to those who don't.

He knows the advantages of showing mercy when it's needed. And Tywin sure as hell could whip the pretentious boy king into place.

He wouldn't have let a second Eddard Stark fly.

Robb cannot bow to the guy who killed his father - even Tywin knows this. He says that with Eddard alive they might have been able to forge a peace with WF but now it was impossible.

Robb's own bannermen would rebel against him if he went bent the knee. These are Northmen, The North Remembers.

[Olligarchy]

Just my five cents on the topic.

I agree that Lysa is a scumbag. In a situation where you have caused a conflict for your own family you have two options:

A) You acknowledge your mistake, publicly or not and do your very best to make sure your family makes it out alright.

B ) You ignore them and go on with whatever plan you have and be generally scummish.

Lysa chose B. She first as good as started the war between Lannisters, Starks and Tullys and then chose to ignore her own actions and pretend that it was in no way her fault. This in my books her makes her worse than Cersei since at least Cersei was fighting for her family. Lysa was just looking out for her own skin and LF who was pulling her strings. The fact that she may or may not be mentally unsound doesn't make it alright. Everyone knows that you just don't start shit like this and leave your family out to hang so you may or may not get that one guy who clearly doesn't love you, actually love you.

As for Hosters... I disagree. He did his best and seemed like a decent ruler. There was no reason to suspect the Freys anymore than there was to suspect Boltons, Reynes or others. They were just one ambitious house amongst many others.

Hoster could in theory have punished the Freys severely for being late at the Ruby Ford, but in a nation like Westeros where bannermen most likely weren't landed by your own family (like in Europe), but had been kings in their own right before you won in war and let them keep their lands. As such the Freys had no other reason to be loyal than the vow each new lord made, and well... trusting a man like Walder Frey is the last mistake anyone will make. He'll jump at your throat when you are weak and sulk when you are not.

[Chaircat Meow]

Because Robb considered Theon his brother(and Theon reciprocated) - remember Theon confessing to WF's heart tree?? He feels guilty - why would he, if he himself did not feel he had betrayed the Starks??

I know he feels like he betrayed them but the fact is, he actually didn't. It was all about deciding where his real family was. Objectively his real family is House Greyjoy though, not House Stark, where he was a hostage.

[Sullen]

Given enough provocation Joff would have at some point decided that his grand father is a traitor and would have planted his head on a pike somewhere,Yes that would make the lannisters angry,But their lord then would have been Tyrion and he wasn't stupid enough to give up the power that came with being the Hand and he didn't care for his father much as we know.

Tywin survived Aerys Targaryen, I have no doubt he can survive Joffrey.

And while Joff was always kind of slow, I really don't think he's stupid enough to execute Tywin, who basically runs everything and is his strongest supporter.

There's also no way Joffrey would name Tyrion Hand, he hated his uncle, his uncle hated him, and they both knew it.

[Barty]

I know he feels like he betrayed them but the fact is, he actually didn't. It was all about deciding where his real family was. Objectively his real family is House Greyjoy though, not House Stark, where he was a hostage.

Objectively speaking you are perfectly right - by word of law Theon did nothing wrong(except killing those millers' kids). Which is why I said he had a moral obligation - not a legal one and Theon knows this which is why he feels guilty.

[Sullen]

Robb cannot bow to the guy who killed his father - even Tywin knows this. He says that with Eddard alive they might have been able to forge a peace with WF but now it was impossible.

Robb's own bannermen would rebel against him if he went bent the knee. These are Northmen, The North Remembers.

I believe Tywin was simply stating that Robb would never bow down to the king who killed his father, not that he couldn't.

I don't think the Northmen would rebel against Robb either, the Dornishmen are said to be the most temperamental people of Westeros, and they still bent the knee to Robert despite the murder of Elia and her children, albeit they weren't especially happy about it.

Robb could have bent the knee, he simply didn't want to. (Which is understandable)

[Barty]

I believe Tywin was simply stating that Robb would never bow down to the king who killed his father, not that he couldn't.

I don't think the Northmen would rebel against Robb either, the Dornishmen are said to be the most temperamental people of Westeros, and they still bent the knee to Robert despite the murder of Elia and her children, albeit they weren't especially happy about it.

Robb could have bent the knee, he simply didn't want to. (Which is understandable)

Read Robb's talk with BF after he beheads Karstark - he tells BF that Harrion could never openly bend the knee to the man who killed his father or his own men would turn on him.

[Sullen]

Read Robb's talk with BF after he beheads Karstark - he tells BF that Harrion could never openly bend the knee to the man who killed his father or his own men would turn on him.

The two situations are different though.

In Eddard's case, he was beheaded by people who, at this point, were clearly enemies, there wasn't any love between the Northmen and the Lannisters.

Karstark and his men fought for Robb, they declared him King in the North, died for him, and when Rickard finally gets his vengeance, Robb beheads him.

In Ned's scenario, it was open enmity, not betrayal... while the Karstarks can easily interpret Rickard's execution as a form of betrayal on Robb's part. They were wronged by their King, who was losing the war anyways, so bending the knee would have been a bad idea in any case.

[The Frosted King]

Theon betrayed the friendship that he had with Robb, clearly.

He owed him nothing by oath or blood, but the fact that he was his truest friend in the world means something.

Still, i don't hate Theon for following his fathers sense absent orders, but i do blame him for knowingly making his one time best friend believe his brothers flayed and dead.

He didn't owe him allegiance, but he owed him better than that.

Lysa set her family up and did nothing while they burned.

Thats as clear a betrayal as these books define.

Lysa, not Theon.

Both betrayed, but Theon was beholden to another cause, while Lysa had the power and did nothing.

Lysa is clearly worse.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lysa, not Theon.

Both betrayed, but Theon was beholden to another cause, while Lysa had the power and did nothing.

Lysa is clearly worse.

Isn't Lysa beholden to the survival of her only son and his kingdom?

Her first concern should be her Son, the nephew she barely knows or her father and his kingdom who sold her to the Arryns take a backseat.

[David Selig]

Robb's own bannermen would rebel against him if he went bent the knee. These are Northmen, The North Remembers.

Northmen are men like any other, most of them are reasonable enough to know that sometimes fighting on against all odds is pointless and stupid. With the Ironborn having taken over part of the North and the overwhelming numerical advantage of the Lannister - Tyrells, chances are most of them would've accepted Robb bending the knee. Sure, there would've been some diehards, but they wouldn't have been the majority.

[Barty]

Northmen are men like any other, most of them are reasonable enough to know that sometimes fighting on against all odds is pointless and stupid. With the Ironborn having taken over part of the North and the overwhelming numerical advantage of the Lannister - Tyrells, chances are most of them would've accepted Robb bending the knee. Sure, there would've been some diehards, but they wouldn't have been the majority.

It would have resulted in civil war in the North - people like Umbers and Karstarks would never bend the knee to Lannisters and they alone are powerful enough to launch a pretty bloody civil war. I'd rather Robb die fighting Lannisters than Robb fighting and killing his own people because he was too afraid to face the Lannisters in the field.

[SevKhatch]

Roose toed the line until the writing was on the wall.

He came when summoned, promptly. Twice. The same for the Karstarks.Twice.

Walder Frey didn't come once, and he did it again years later.

If he'd swung from a rope, it's likely Ser Stevron would've been promptly available and without haggling.

And Lysa sat and watched her family burn.

It's because of the Starks that she's even the lady of the Vale.

As a second daughter, her natural lot would've been a Bracken or Mallister.

:agree:

The Starks aren't gods, true.

But as long as the Tully's rule well and the Freys prosper under their rule, they better reciprocate the honor.

Ask what Tywin would do should his bannermen ignore the call to arms.

And if the Freys fought for the dragon, fine. You made a choice and followed it through. They did nothing of the sort though. They just sat pretty and honored nothing. Not liege nor king.

Hang him high.

:agree:

[Sullen]

It would have resulted in civil war in the North - people like Umbers and Karstarks would never bend the knee to Lannisters and they alone are powerful enough to launch a pretty bloody civil war. I'd rather Robb die fighting Lannisters than Robb fighting and killing his own people because he was too afraid to face the Lannisters in the field.

The Karstarks bent the knee to the Lannisters eventually, so that's not exactly true for them.

And I think the Umbers are sensible enough to realize that bending the knee is better than all dying.

[I'll pay the iron price]

I dont consider Lysa a betrayer!

Her duty was to her son and the Vale NOT to Robb or the North.

It could be argued that she should have done something when the Riverlands were being ravaged (they are her homelands after all) but to do so would conflict with her duty to her son and the Vale.

The Starks were happy to take someones head for betraying an oath - the young lad Ned killed at the beginning of the very first episode for breaking his oath to the Knights watch and deserting.

Karstark for breaking his oath to obey Robb when he killed the Lannister lads.

Ok Walder Frey used dirty tactics but Robb had practically made him look a 1st class pillock by breaking his marriage contract.

As for Hoster Tully, he was bedridden and ill when Ned got killed so I dont think he can be called a betrayer of Robb either.

[Fat Mac]

Lysa is Lady of the Vale. Not the Riverlands. Not the North. She acts as her son's regent until he comes of age. That is where she is bound by family (to her son), and where she is bound by politics (to her lords).

Bringing the Vale into the War likely wouldn't have helped the Northmen. Would if have stopped Robb from getting injured at the Crag, having sex, and marrying Jeyne? Unlikely. Therefore, it wouldn't have stopped the Red Wedding, but in turn would have increased the number of Vale deaths. And what then? With a fallen Kingdom, now the Vale's in hot water just like the Riverlands and North.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lysa is Lady of the Vale. Not the Riverlands. Not the North. She acts as her son's regent until he comes of age. That is where she is bound by family (to her son), and where she is bound by politics (to her lords).

Bringing the Vale into the War likely wouldn't have helped the Northmen. Would if have stopped Robb from getting injured at the Crag, having sex, and marrying Jeyne? Unlikely. Therefore, it wouldn't have stopped the Red Wedding, but in turn would have increased the number of Vale deaths. And what then? With a fallen Kingdom, now the Vale's in hot water just like the Riverlands and North.

Put it another way, Robb wins and the Vale Lords and troops decide, like a portion of the Riverland troops, that they'd rather Robb be King than some sickly child. We know through the last 2 books that the Lords of the Vale are capable of making deals for their best interests rather then their Lords and she has little power to stop them.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Robb betrayed his aunt and his grandfather when he entered a dangerous war without their consent and expected both of them to back him up.

It works both ways.

technically his grandfather was already at War because Tywin had loosed The Mountain on the Riverlands before Ned was ever arrested or executed. As for Lysa, seeing as how she not only killed Jon Arryn but wrote an unsolicited correspondence to Cat blaming the Lannisters for doing so (& if I remember correctly that knowledge was what ultimately pushed Ned to accept the position of Hand)...she's as responsible for the war as anyone. Then sat back and played lunatic while the rest of the realm bled.

I do agree that Hoster shouldve done something to Walder in regard to his lackadaisical support during RR, but Im thinking more like taxes or taking some of his holdings, not killing him.

Lysa is Lady of the Vale. Not the Riverlands. Not the North. She acts as her son's regent until he comes of age. That is where she is bound by family (to her son), and where she is bound by politics (to her lords).

Bringing the Vale into the War likely wouldn't have helped the Northmen. Would if have stopped Robb from getting injured at the Crag, having sex, and marrying Jeyne? Unlikely. Therefore, it wouldn't have stopped the Red Wedding, but in turn would have increased the number of Vale deaths. And what then? With a fallen Kingdom, now the Vale's in hot water just like the Riverlands and North.

Actually, if the Vale had entered the War before the Freys departed the Tywin wouldve been outnumbered quite handsomely & very well couldve been defeated before events like Jeyne & the RW took place.

I still say Robbs best plan wouldve been to threaten to kill Jaime if the girls werent released to him. He didnt have to trade the Kingslayer to get them back (well Sansa anyway) but he didnt play the situation right. Cersei nor Tywin wouldve been willing to let Jaime die so I doubt they wouldve called the bluff...& if they did, well dead sisters are better than sisters held hostage. at least politically

[The Frosted King]

Lysa is Lady of the Vale. Not the Riverlands. Not the North. She acts as her son's regent until he comes of age. That is where she is bound by family (to her son), and where she is bound by politics (to her lords).

Bringing the Vale into the War likely wouldn't have helped the Northmen. Would if have stopped Robb from getting injured at the Crag, having sex, and marrying Jeyne? Unlikely. Therefore, it wouldn't have stopped the Red Wedding, but in turn would have increased the number of Vale deaths. And what then? With a fallen Kingdom, now the Vale's in hot water just like the Riverlands and North.

Lysa had the power and lords willing to fight to support her overall family.

Nobody expected her to lead her armies herself, nor her son.

Twenty thousand men would've made all the difference in this war.

Hold back enough to defend the vale and bring in the harvest.

But don't just watch your fucking family collapse and be butchered.

She made decisions that will ensure that should the Vale face a real threat, they likely face it alone.

It wasn't a choice between keep her son safe or help her sister's and brothers lands.

Both could've been done.

[Fat Mac]

Sure both could have been done, but she didn't see it that way. Lysa was bonkers. Ever since Jon Arryn wanted to foster Robert on Dragonstone, she got paranoid that people were out to get him. Was it rational? No. But it explains very much why she didn't get in the war.

Robert was safe in the Vale, yes. However, it isn't that impractical to think that if the Stark/Tully/Arryn forces lost... that her or Robert's heads would be called for.