Robb's worst betrayals came from his aunt and his grandfather

[Amadeo78]

I partially agree. Hoster should have used the early influence after the rebellion to take action on Frey...only because having a bannerman who's loyalty is questionable hold such a strategic point in the land was foolish...but Robert was a fighter not a strategist in the long term sense. Cat and Lysa are the biggest betrayers both for setting free prisoners (Tyrion and Jamie). If they had Tyrion, on principal Twyin would have acted to get him back. They would not have harmed the girls while Jamie was a captive. Cat did what she did out of grief, Lysa just threw her crazy around and made a big deal out of Tyrion because he was a Lannister...sadly the one who had nothing to do with her fears.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I only used betrayal for hoster to get attention. I do feel it was a failure of ruling that had consequences for his grandson though.

His failure was not educating his daughter. She should of brought the Imp to Kings Landing where the Hand, her husband, and the key witness, Littlefinger, resided instead of dooming her whole family.

[JLE]

The Freys were jackasses right from the start.

If they'd chosen the dragon over the stag at Robert's Rebellion? You could have said "yes, they were honourable, they had conflicting loyalties, to choose king over lord-paramount is not a thing anyone can blame them for" and pardoned them, along with the others who chose to be Targaryen loyalists.

If they'd come straight to the aid of the Tullys? "What a loyal bannerman, nobody can fault them".

If they had refused to get involved entirely, and sent no soldiers to any battle? Staying neutral has some kind of honour - "we refuse to get involved in your petty squabbles, our business is to keep our own folk safe and out of it".

But turning up when there *is* still a battle going on, and promptly attaching themselves to the winning side as soon as it becomes clear which side that will be? That's just a bunch of sycophantic creeps.

Of course, that is also what the Lannisters did, in staying aloof till the Sack of Kings' Landing. Having stayed out that long, they should have either stayed out completely and left Kings' Landing to Ned's army (result: Aerys and his pyromancers are still killed by Jaime, acting on his own, but the city is not sacked, and Ned's army take the city in an orderly fashion with no looting and pillaging, Elia and her children survive to bend the knee to Robert, and Robert when he arrives belatedly after Ned is forced to officially spare the kids, because he can't have them murdered with the whole city looking on.)

[The Frosted King]

His failure was not educating his daughter. She should of brought the Imp to Kings Landing where the Hand, her husband, and the key witness, Littlefinger, resided instead of dooming her whole family.

And the king who could be browbeaten by his nag wife into dropping the charges?

How could she expect a fair trial in the second Lannister powerbase?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And the king who could be browbeaten by his nag wife into dropping the charges?

How could she expect a fair trial in the second Lannister powerbase?

He's just made her husband the 2nd most powerful person in the country and offered her daughter the opportunity to be the next queen of Westeros. It's fair to say that he likes both sides.

[Howling Mad]

Dude, how does the fact an act has bad consequences for someone prove it is a betrayal? Argument does not follow.

How can Theon carry out Robb's plan to attack the west when Balon says no. That's on Balon, Theon did all he could to persuade him otherwise.

Theon took Winterfell on his own initiative not daddy's orders. He may not have been able to deliver on his promise to deliver the Ironfleet to Robb but Theon chose to stick it to Robb in the ass. That's a betrayal. :owned:

[Chaircat Meow]

Theon took Winterfell on his own initiative not daddy's orders. He may not have been able to deliver on his promise to deliver the Ironfleet to Robb but Theon chose to stick it to Robb in the ass. That's a betrayal.

Your argument still makes no sense. Greyjoys and Starks are at war, so if taking part in one act of war (raiding the stony shore) is not a betrayal why is undertaking a further one. Moreover Balon explained he did plan to take WF anyway, so if Theon was part of his plan he was signed up to eventually taking away Robb's home.

[Eli Stark]

Robb betrayed his aunt and his grandfather when he entered a dangerous war without their consent and expected both of them to back him up.

It works both ways.

The Lannisters were burning and pillaging the Riverlands before the Starks called up any banner men.

[Howling Mad]

Your argument still makes no sense. Greyjoys and Starks are at war, so if taking part in one act of war (raiding the stony shore) is not a betrayal why is undertaking a further one. Moreover Balon explained he did plan to take WF anyway, so if Theon was part of his plan he was signed up to eventually taking away Robb's home.

Theon intended to bring the Greyjoy's to Robb's side in the war. When he realized he could not deliver on his promose Theon chose to betray Robb by joining his father which is understandable under the circumstances. However, Theon chose to take it a step further by not only sacking Winterfell (an Ironborn move that even Asha gives him credit) but Theon claims the Castle and the North. Theon then ups the ante by killing Robb's brothers because once he slew the miller's boys in Bran's and Rickon's stead there lives were forfeit. All of this was Theon's choice even though his original intentions were to join the Ironborn to the Stark cause. Theon betrayed his word to Robb. Whether or not Robb should have ever trusted Theon is another matter.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Lysa was a massive betrayal for Robb.

If your family is in trouble you try and help them, even if you dont have the means to.

If your family is in trouble and you have the means to help them while putting yourself at risk, you do it.

If you're family is in trouble and you have the means to help them while completely assuring your own safety, by means of sending 20,000 men to fight and keeping back 10-15000 to hold your impenetrable bloody gate, you help them.

The fact that Lysa had the means to help her father, brother, sister and nephew and chose not to is betrayal enough for me.

Add this to the fact that she killed her husband, lied to her sister causing a war and put her love for Littlefinger above all else, jeopardising the safety of her only child makes her as bad as Cersei in my mind.

Pushing that bitch out the moon door was the best thing Petyr Baelish ever did, including his "whores rarely sink" line.

[Of Starfall]

Lysa was a massive betrayal for Robb.

If your family is in trouble you try and help them, even if you dont have the means to.

If your family is in trouble and you have the means to help them while putting yourself at risk, you do it.

If you're family is in trouble and you have the means to help them while completely assuring your own safety, by means of sending 20,000 men to fight and keeping back 10-15000 to hold your impenetrable bloody gate, you help them.

The fact that Lysa had the means to help her father, brother, sister and nephew and chose not to is betrayal enough for me.

Add this to the fact that she killed her husband, lied to her sister causing a war and put her love for Littlefinger above all else, jeopardising the safety of her only child makes her as bad as Cersei in my mind.

Pushing that bitch out the moon door was the best thing Petyr Baelish ever did, including his "whores rarely sink" line.

THIS. Bitch was crazy on Cersei Level.

[Penguin king]

Lysa's motives aren't exactly pure, but keeping out of the war was probably the best decsion for her people. The family politics of the ruling houses of Westeros lead to hundreds of thousands of dead small folk. Tywin invaded the riverlands to get his son back and is called a monster for it but Lysa refuses to put her family ties above the lives of her people, and she's called a betrayer. It seems a noble is damned whatever they chose to do.

[Persepolis]

Yes, it's true.

His aunt betrayed by not assisting in the war she had a hand in bringing about, may she burn in the hottest fires.

And his grandfather betrayed by not teaching Walder Frey an extremely sharp lesson for that debacle at the Trident.

Walder should've hung, and the king likely would've shrugged his shoulders in response.

Bannermen only go so far as they think they can get away with. Had he taught them the way of things fifteen years ago, their outright disobedience wouldn't have happened when Robb first pushed south.

Which then removes the forced negotiations and the onus of the RW.

Thoughts

lulz. Okay, then i blame Ned for not taking the IT after the rebellion and preventing all this from happening. No wait, i blame Rhaegar for setting the rebellion in motion, causing all of this.

You know what, by your logic, i could even blame the First Men. If they hadn't let the Andals invade Westeros, none of this would have happened.

So... the First Men betrayed Robb, there you have it.

[Cruella]

Why should Lysa risk her and her son's life so that her stupid nephew can get to call himself King in the North rather than Lord of Winterfell, as he'd had to if he partnered with Stannis like his father would want him to. At least now Vale has something to feed westerosi people who'd be dying from hunger soon because of this idiotic separatist war. A lady should think about her people and her lands, not her familial interests (not that Lysa's family was ever good for her), but her actual motives work for me as well.

[Humble Hedge Knight]

Nah, breaking his marriage contract with Frey screwed him over; his lords began to lose confidence in him, and the stage was set for the fissures to be exploited by the North's enemies.

[The Frosted King]

Lysa's motives aren't exactly pure, but keeping out of the war was probably the best decsion for her people. The family politics of the ruling houses of Westeros lead to hundreds of thousands of dead small folk. Tywin invaded the riverlands to get his son back and is called a monster for it but Lysa refuses to put her family ties above the lives of her people, and she's called a betrayer. It seems a noble is damned whatever they chose to do.

If her intentions were that "for the peoplish" it would be almost palatable, though i'd disagree.

But her only concern was what Petyr wanted.

If he told her to send her armies to aid the Starks, march they would. If he told her to burn the Starks, again, march they would.

The fact that her only concern was what this little shit wanted, and not the people who look like her, loved and cared for her in her youth is downright poisonous to my stomach.

She betrayed blood for the idea of love.

Sansa gets shredded for it, and she's a child. And only meant well.

Lysa was a woman grown, and watched her family bleed and then finally burn.

I only wish she fell into Lady Stoneheart's clutches with a note explaining her true involvement in the events of the war.

[The Frosted King]

Why should Lysa risk her and her son's life so that her stupid nephew can get to call himself King in the North rather than Lord of Winterfell, as he'd had to if he partnered with Stannis like his father would want him to. At least now Vale has something to feed westerosi people who'd be dying from hunger soon because of this idiotic separatist war. A lady should think about her people and her lands, not her familial interests (not that Lysa's family was ever good for her), but her actual motives work for me as well.

Wow.

Not that her family was ever good to her.

Her father made a decision that would seem heartless, and that now means her entire family was wrong to her?

Her actions didn't spur from care for her people, but her crazy ass stage five clingerism concerning Petyr.

And familial duty means everything in Westeros, else why would so many greathouses intermarry?

Ditch the immature avatar and outlook that it implies.

[The Frosted King]

lulz. Okay, then i blame Ned for not taking the IT after the rebellion and preventing all this from happening. No wait, i blame Rhaegar for setting the rebellion in motion, causing all of this.

You know what, by your logic, i could even blame the First Men. If they hadn't let the Andals invade Westeros, none of this would have happened.

So... the First Men betrayed Robb, there you have it.

Your train of logic derailed before you started typing.

Lysa had a hand in pushing things to a head between two powerful families, and sat back and watched, as her extended family was bled and burned, even though she had the means to turn the tide.

Hoster's weak rule over the Freys made them bold enough to demand marriages when their aid should've been implicit.

Had he been more Starkish/Lannisterish in his ruling, they would've been more cowed and less opportunistic.

Lysa was a betrayal, whereas Hoster was a failing that cost later on.

[Jon Snow R+L=J]

I think it was Theon greyjoy.

[Penguin king]

If her intentions were that "for the peoplish" it would be almost palatable, though i'd disagree.

But her only concern was what Petyr wanted.

If he told her to send her armies to aid the Starks, march they would. If he told her to burn the Starks, again, march they would.

The fact that her only concern was what this little shit wanted, and not the people who look like her, loved and cared for her in her youth is downright poisonous to my stomach.

She betrayed blood for the idea of love.

Sansa gets shredded for it, and she's a child. And only meant well.

Lysa was a woman grown, and watched her family bleed and then finally burn.

I only wish she fell into Lady Stoneheart's clutches with a note explaining her true involvement in the events of the war.

I know that Lysa was just Littlefinger's puppet, but the point remains that the Wars of Westeros are just the personal squabbles of a handful of Nobles, and that tens of thousands of lives shouldn't just be thrown away because Tywin wants his son back, Robb wants to avenge his daddy or one Baratheon wants to sit on the Iron throne instead of another.

If I was in Lysa's place i would a have done the same thing. A lord owes a duty to his people, and Lysa ruled in Robert's stead. Why send thousands of innocent men to their deaths because my nephew won't learn to bend the knee? What makes their lives any less important than my family's?