Robb's worst betrayals came from his aunt and his grandfather

[The Dragon King]

Killing Jon was incredibly stupid and morally reprehensible.

Staying out of the war was smart.

No, it was stupid. If the Vale got in the war they would have stood a magnificent show at winning, now they're surrounded by enemies that can gather their strength and destroy you, bravo!

[Fat Mac]

Except Lysa didn't flee with her friends and family. She fled with her child and then pushed the rest of her family into the blaze for absolutely no reason other than to start a needless conflict to please her lover

Except remember when she told Catelyn to stay away from the Lannisters? Obviously LF knew that that wouldn't happen, but Lysa was none the wiser. I don't think she expected a war to break out.

No, it was stupid. If the Vale got in the war they would have stood a magnificent show at winning, now they're surrounded by enemies that can gather their strength and destroy you, bravo!

That would depend on when the Tyrells got involved. If the Vale got involved, and the Tyrells still went in with the Lannisters, they'd likely lose still. Only the war would be longer. And bloodier. But as of now, the Vale is the most powerful untapped force in Westeros.

[MasterJack]

No, it was stupid. If the Vale got in the war they would have stood a magnificent show at winning, now they're surrounded by enemies that can gather their strength and destroy you, bravo!

Enemy? who? Even the crown arent mad at em.

[Melimna]

Except remember when she told Catelyn to stay away from the Lannisters? Obviously LF knew that that wouldn't happen, but Lysa was none the wiser. I don't think she expected a war to break out.

Actually her letter just said that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, it said nothing about her staying away from them. Lysa simply assumed that Catelyn would come to that conclusion for whatever reason (which I seriously just think was just a lie she cooked up to justify her hypocritical anger at her dragging Tyrion to her perfect little home)

And she didn't expect a war to break out? Please!

"And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever . . ."

Does that sound like someone who didn't know just what she was doing?

[Melimna]

Enemy? who? Even the crown arent mad at em.

For the majority of the war, the Vale were considered traitors because Lysa failed to answer her summons to court. So at the end of the day, if LF never went to the Vale it would have been invaded.

[Fat Mac]

Actually her letter just said that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, it said nothing about her staying away from them. Lysa simply assumed that Catelyn would come to that conclusion for whatever reason (which I seriously just think was just a lie she cooked up to justify her hypocritical anger at her dragging Tyrion to her perfect little home)

And she didn't expect a war to break out? Please!

"And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever . . ."

Does that sound like someone who didn't know just what she was doing?

She thought it was so clever because it took the blame off of her. She killed Jon Arryn, and no one but her and LF knew about it. And she managed to place the blame on some one else. She thought that was clever.

And yes, I don't think she expected war. Lets remember what Lysa's mental state was like at this point. Three things mattered to her. Her well being, her son's well being, and LF. By killing Jon Arryn, all three of these are benefited in her mind. I don't think she connected the dots concerning the political ramifications of her actions.

For the majority of the war, the Vale were considered traitors because Lysa failed to answer her summons to court. So at the end of the day, if LF never went to the Vale it would have been invaded.

Actually I think everyone at KL was just glad that they didn't join Robb. I think they were happy to let them sit out as long as they didn't turn against them.

[Melimna]

She thought it was so clever because it took the blame off of her. She killed Jon Arryn, and no one but her and LF knew about it. And she managed to place the blame on some one else. She thought that was clever.

And yes, I don't think she expected war. Lets remember what Lysa's mental state was like at this point. Three things mattered to her. Her well being, her son's well being, and LF. By killing Jon Arryn, all three of these are benefited in her mind. I don't think she connected the dots concerning the political ramifications of her actions.

So if she can concieve of the concept of blame deflecting, can she not see why the blame has to be displaced somewhere else in the first place? This would indicate that she knows the gravity of her action and has to turn it else where to save herself. And this isn't even getting into the fact that she chose her sister of all people, maliciously. And yet she cries for her earlier when she talks to Sansa. I think she is completely aware that her actions would have serious political consequences. She's unhinged, but she hasn't taken complete leave of her sense

Actually I think everyone at KL was just glad that they didn't join Robb. I think they were happy to let them sit out as long as they didn't turn against them.

Mace Tyrell and the other Reach Lords were glad she wasn't doing anything. The Lannisters on the other hand were thinking of delivering the Vale bloodlessly. If the LF option wasn't open they would have invaded it. Not submitting allegiance when you were called to do so is just as treasonous and completely rebelling

[MasterJack]

Mace Tyrell and the other Reach Lords were glad she wasn't doing anything. The Lannisters on the other hand were thinking of delivering the Vale bloodlessly. If the LF option wasn't open they would have invaded it. Not submitting allegiance when you were called to do so is just as treasonous and completely rebelling

I think only Tyrion proposed to attack the Vales and it was after he was almost killed by that crazy bitch, yet Tywin didnt give a single fuck.

[Melimna]

I think only Tyrion proposed to attack the Vales and it was after he was almost killed by that crazy bitch, yet Tywin didnt give a single fuck.

This is what Tywin thinks of Lysa

“There is Lysa Arryn to deal with as well. Jon Arryn’s widow, Hoster Tully’s daughter, Catelyn Stark’s sister . . . whose husband was conspiring with Stannis Baratheon at the time of his death.”

If Littlefinger wasn't there to take advantage of the situation, Tywin would have come to the conclusion that she is planning to join Stannis. Therefore, the Tyrell-Lannister forces would have invaded the Vale after they were done subjugating the Riverlands

[MasterJack]

This is what Tywin thinks of Lysa

“There is Lysa Arryn to deal with as well. Jon Arryn’s widow, Hoster Tully’s daughter, Catelyn Stark’s sister . . . whose husband was conspiring with Stannis Baratheon at the time of his death.”

If Littlefinger wasn't there to take advantage of the situation, Tywin would have come to the conclusion that she is planning to join Stannis. Therefore, the Tyrell-Lannister forces would have invaded the Vale after they were done subjugating the Riverlands

funny how you seem to think "having a problem with someone neutral" means you have to invade em. At worse Robin would have be placed under kevan's regency or something like that.

[Melimna]

funny how you seem to think "having a problem with someone neutral" means you have to invade em. At worse Robin would have be placed under kevan's regency or something like that.

And would Lysa simply let Sweetrobin be placed in regency? The woman who killed her own husband when he tried to do something similar? No, it would have come to war. She wasn't being neutral, she was disobeying the Crown by failing to answer her summons. She is pretty much a traitor until LF marries her.

Lord Tywin turned back to Littlefinger. “If Lysa Arryn will take you for a husband and return to the king’s peace, we shall restore the Lord Robert to the honor of Warden of the East. How soon might you leave?”

She has to be "returned" to the King's peace. And her son doesn't even have the lawful title he should have.

[MasterJack]

And would Lysa simply let Sweetrobin be placed in regency? The woman who killed her own husband when he tried to do something similar? No, it would have come to war. She wasn't being neutral, she was disobeying the Crown by failing to answer her summons. She is pretty much a traitor until LF marries her.

Lord Tywin turned back to Littlefinger. “If Lysa Arryn will take you for a husband and return to the king’s peace, we shall restore the Lord Robert to the honor of Warden of the East. How soon might you leave?”

She has to be "returned" to the King's peace. And her son doesn't even have the lawful title he should have.

we will have to agree to disagree then.

[Minsc]

This is what Tywin thinks of Lysa

“There is Lysa Arryn to deal with as well. Jon Arryn’s widow, Hoster Tully’s daughter, Catelyn Stark’s sister . . . whose husband was conspiring with Stannis Baratheon at the time of his death.”

If Littlefinger wasn't there to take advantage of the situation, Tywin would have come to the conclusion that she is planning to join Stannis. Therefore, the Tyrell-Lannister forces would have invaded the Vale after they were done subjugating the Riverlands

As long as Lysa and Robin bent the knee to Tywin, he wouldn't do anything to her in how he isn't stupid enough to start a whole new war just because one fraction stayed neutral. Especially, if he saw that she wasn't any threat because of how she still continues to nothing after the RW.

[Melimna]

As long as Lysa and Robin bent the knee to Tywin, he wouldn't do anything to her in how he isn't stupid enough to start a whole new war just because one fraction stayed neutral. Especially, if he saw that she wasn't any threat because of how she still continues to nothing after the RW.

If Lysa had any intention of bending the knee in person she would have done it much sooner. She needs to be sent Littlefinger for her to finally do what she should have. If Littlefinger wasn't there, she would sit in the Eyrie and would have never responded to Tywin ever. And then what would Tywin think? That she is clearly plotting something treasonous, or else why wouldn't she simply bend the knee? Push comes to shove, and the Vale would have definitely been invaded. Better that than to wait for her to deliver the Vale's troops to Stannis or some other person.

[Minsc]

If Lysa had any intention of bending the knee in person she would have done it much sooner. She needs to be sent Littlefinger for her to finally do what she should have. If Littlefinger wasn't there, she would sit in the Eyrie and would have never responded to Tywin ever. And then what would Tywin think? That she is clearly plotting something treasonous, or else why wouldn't she simply bend the knee? Push comes to shove, and the Vale would have definitely been invaded. Better that than to wait for her to deliver the Vale's troops to Stannis or some other person.

Or she didn't bend the knee in person as there is a war going on and it makes no sense for her to travel across the front lines to bend the knee to one of the combatants who is still fighting a number of other opponents.

She would be more content to send a message of allegiance after is was assured that the Lannister/Tyrells were going to be the victors. Furthermore, she probably always had some insight that LF was going to be sent to her thus she had only wait until that moment thus allowing her to finally snag her beloved LF.

Moreover, Tywin will not just invade the Vale on just a hunch that she might be plotting, especially when it is quite obviously that she isn't supporting Stannis in how she isn't doing anything for him at all. Additionally, Tywin's forces are already extremely bloodied while the Vale's troops are still fresh and sitting in a region that known to be impenetrable thus an invasion would only cost a massive toll on his remaining troops. Not to mention, that he still requires his troops to successfully put down the remnants of resistances in both the Riverlands and Stormlands. And I doubt Mace Tyrell will volunteer his troops into invading the Vale in how he is more cautious then that.

[Sullen]

If Lysa had any intention of bending the knee in person she would have done it much sooner. She needs to be sent Littlefinger for her to finally do what she should have. If Littlefinger wasn't there, she would sit in the Eyrie and would have never responded to Tywin ever. And then what would Tywin think? That she is clearly plotting something treasonous, or else why wouldn't she simply bend the knee? Push comes to shove, and the Vale would have definitely been invaded. Better that than to wait for her to deliver the Vale's troops to Stannis or some other person.

She was waiting for the war to be over before she bent the knee.

You know, when things were safe?

Lysa's decision to sit out of the war was the smartest one for her people and herself.

[Minsc]

Lysa's decision to sit out of the war was the smartest one for her people and herself.

I always find it interesting how Lysa is being painted as an idiot for staying out of the war, yet Doran Martell is often seen as being a mastered player/politician when his only accomplishment is staying out of the war.

[Sullen]

I always find it interesting how Lysa is being painted as an idiot for staying out of the war, yet Doran Martell is often seen as being a mastered player/politician when his only accomplishment is staying out of the war.

Because Lysa obviously betrayed Robb, don't you know!?

[Raven in Winter]

I've always believed Hoster should have pulled a Tywin and punished the "late Walder Frey". He wouldn't have been late a second time.

[PrinceHenryris]

Thirteen pages is a long way to go through, so I apologize in advance if any of this has been covered before.

Ned and Hoster both screwed up when they didn't put the Twins to the sword after the rebellion. The Twins must be besieged from both sides, it would take a combination of forces from the North and the Riverlands to close off the Twins.

After the war, the Neck could have been easily closed by the Crannogmen, and forces from Seaguard and Raventree Hall could easily shut down the Southern passages.

I wouldn't have punished the Freys for fighting on the other side (Lyn Corbray was knighted fighting for the Targs, forgiven by Jon Arryn, and killed Prince Llewelyn Martell.), but I would punish them because they DIDN'T FIGHT AT ALL! Walder Frey waited to see which way the wind blew, and showed up after the fighting was over. Tywin, at least, made sure he got some blood on his hands during Robert's Rebellion.

Lyssa could have changed the game. While I suspect that her refusal to enter the Wot5K was Littlefinger's idea, if she had unleashed Bronze Yohn and crew in support of Robb, things would have gone very differently - then again the books wouldn't be as entertaining.

And Cat was almost always full of bad ideas.