(Book Spoilers) A Castle made of snow

[juanml82]

Ok, here, in the book forums Lady Arianne Martell wondered about the Snow Castle scene and how it would be portrayed in the Show. The thread was closed, as it was in the book forum, so I guess the discussion can continue here.

Needless to say, spoilers ahead.

bbstark said it could be easily shot, with a parallel editing between the actual scorched Winterfell and Sansa's castle. I think it's reasonable, and within the writing the showrunners have shown to produce.

However, I'm pessimistic about that entire scene and it's translation to the screen. There are plenty of small details here and there and a lot of Sansa's emotions and mental images written on the pages, which is what, IMHO, makes it a beautiful scene. Things like Sansa opening the windows to get dressed while it's cold and snowing, reminiscent of Ned doing the same back in AGOT after making love to Catelyn. Sansa thinking how the Godswood is empty (or something to that effect) just like her. Sansa remembering her brothers, whom she believes are all death except for Jon. Sansa standing up to LF and thinking she was able to do it because she's stronger inside Winterfell. And probably other tidbits I forgot.

We know, mostly based on Jon and Sansa's arcs this season how the show deals with internal conflicts and thoughts. That is, they ignore them completely, which makes me think they'll just make sure the viewers understand Sansa is building a replica of Winterfell, SR breaks it, causing her to snap, LF kisses her and Lysa watches them. And they'll call it a day. But if they do that, I would think they made a better job adapting Weasel Soup and that's because they didn't adapt it at all.

I don't know. I think the scene would have be heavily altered to deliver a similar impact as the books. Maybe some parallel editing of all surviving Stark children and their wolves (oh, eschew that, the writers or producers seem allergic to direwolves) under the snow, while Sansa builds the castle and the other kids do something which might seem they are missing their siblings, thus tying the idea Sansa, and her siblings, miss each other.

Or something else, but I'm convinced we'll be disappointed by the emotional impact, if any, of the TV version of that scene.

[juanml82]

Are shameless bumps frowned upon in this forum? :P

[Lady Nastja]

That is a heavy problem with the show. It cannot portray many of the mental, and IMHO, incredibly emotional thoughts and scenes that we see in the book. For this scene, I suppose they shall do their best, but it will not be half as significant as it was in the book, I'm afraid.

And no, bumping is fine. :P At least in my book!

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

bumping is fine since it takes time for a thread to be accepted causing it to get to page 2. So yes, bumping is perfectly fine...

I see the problems you raise with the internal monologue. But it's quite easily averted here since you have a child character where she can be more or less open in talk. There are many ways they can tackle that scene, I'm confident :)

[King's Ruin]

Is this guy for real? You heard of books, right? They're for reading. You seen movies, right? They're for watching. Two different mediums, two different artistic platforms for two different forms of expression. Ye olde 'never as good as the book' maxim is not exactly a new concept and hardly something to be especially applied to Sansa's snow castle, although it may be a good example of what is lost. On the other hand, you may not be as good at imagining the expressions on Sansa's face when she's doing this as well as Sophie ma-watch-you-call-her can perform them so... stop bragging about how you love the snow castle scene. We all love the snow castle scene. Happy?

[Sopranos With Swords]

stop bragging about how you love the snow castle scene. We all love the snow castle scene. Happy?

Probably not worth getting this worked up over a difference in opinion. I agree though that it isn't fair to expect the show to fully translate each and every though we are privy to thanks to POV, even the more beautiful scenes such as this, I think it would end up a bit ridiculous and would take a lifetime to make if that were the case.

I'm positive however that the show runners also appreciate the emotional depth of the scene, they'll do it justice but if you expect the same complexity as the book for every scene you'll be heavily disappointed!

bbstark said it could be easily shot, with a parallel editing between the actual scorched Winterfell and Sansa's castle. I think it's reasonable, and within the writing the showrunners have shown to produce.

This is a nice idea, it would be interesting to see it edited like this, maybe have some Bran-dream-esq Ned quotes, or even just sibling laughter, and then watch SR destroy it.

[juanml82]

Is this guy for real? You heard of books, right? They're for reading. You seen movies, right? They're for watching. Two different mediums, two different artistic platforms for two different forms of expression. Ye olde 'never as good as the book' maxim is not exactly a new concept and hardly something to be especially applied to Sansa's snow castle, although it may be a good example of what is lost. On the other hand, you may not be as good at imagining the expressions on Sansa's face when she's doing this as well as Sophie ma-watch-you-call-her can perform them so... stop bragging about how you love the snow castle scene. We all love the snow castle scene. Happy?

Wow, relax dude. If you were referencing my post, I've never meant it as 'never as good as book' but rather as 'these screenwriters are likely to botch it because they've shown few skills to translate internal conflicts and emotions into the screen'

[King's Ruin]

Yeah, no sorry if that sounded like I was getting worked up, I think my written word just sounded like that, I honestly meant what I said in a more jokey 'we all love the snowcastle scene' sense because, hey, it's a great scene and the term 'snowcastle' is a great term... I still think it's a little unfair to say 'they've shown few skills to translate internal conflicts and emotions into screen' though - the actors are given a script pretty much based on what the characters say in the book (sometimes word for word) and the actors do a good job at performing that script. Have you got any examples of scenes you were particularly unhappy with?

[The Pain Yak]

Someone brought up in the other thread the issue of whether Aidan Gillen could kiss Sophie Turner, who is still just barely a minor, and have it be legal. Anyone clear in regards to UK law on that particularly subject?

[juanml82]

Yeah, no sorry if that sounded like I was getting worked up, I think my written word just sounded like that, I honestly meant what I said in a more jokey 'we all love the snowcastle scene' sense because, hey, it's a great scene and the term 'snowcastle' is a great term... I still think it's a little unfair to say 'they've shown few skills to translate internal conflicts and emotions into screen' though - the actors are given a script pretty much based on what the characters say in the book (sometimes word for word) and the actors do a good job at performing that script. Have you got any examples of scenes you were particularly unhappy with?

Jon's arc this season shows little of what's going on in his head. Arya's fear of her mother not wanting her anymore is simply cut. Sansa's intelligence (or lack of thereof depending on the episode) is inconsistent across the last two seasons. Bran's idea of keeping Rickon south of the Wall came out of the blue.

They just don't put enough into what's happening inside the character's head - which of course has to be treated different than in literature, but that doesn't mean it can't be shown.

[CrypticWeirwood]

You mean the Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening seen?

[Cardinal Sin]

Someone brought up in the other thread the issue of whether Aidan Gillen could kiss Sophie Turner, who is still just barely a minor, and have it be legal. Anyone clear in regards to UK law on that particularly subject?

Yepp. Under English law, any sexual activity is legal after 16 years, and I believe this counts for films too. Scotland I think is even more liberal in that regard.

Anyways, I harbour certain doubts that a mere kiss (that is not a French kiss or something like that) could be construed as a sexual act, at least under English law. I certainly remember my criminal law tutor having a laugh at us when my group at a seminar suggested holding hands is a sexual act relevant for the Sexual Offences Act 2003^^

[King's Ruin]

I just checked on imdb and Sophie Turner is 17 so no problems there

[King's Ruin]

Jon's arc this season shows little of what's going on in his head. Arya's fear of her mother not wanting her anymore is simply cut. Sansa's intelligence (or lack of thereof depending on the episode) is inconsistent across the last two seasons. Bran's idea of keeping Rickon south of the Wall came out of the blue.

They just don't put enough into what's happening inside the character's head - which of course has to be treated different than in literature, but that doesn't mean it can't be shown.

Are you familiar with the term 'nit picking' ?? Unless you want Shakespearean monologues directly to the audience, you will find GoT is no more or less informative than every book ever transcribed onto screen. there's this thing called 'acting' right, which books can't do, where it's up to the viewer to read all that stuff in the actor / actresses face. the more subtle and the more complex those emotions the better job the performer is doing. For instance, where Robb Stark fails miserably at this stuff, Jon Snow's performance is packed full of conflicted emotions and unspoken observations which did burst out when he warned Ygritte 'they' would all die (great piece of drama) as someone who had been through a similar experience might well have recognized the fear in Aarya's face. Are you suggesting Aarya should actually have said something like "I'm worried my mum..." If that's not what you're saying, please, explain how else to communicate that fear to the audience?

As for Bran, it makes sense that he wouldn't talk about keeping Rickon south of the Wall because he didn't truly believe in his warging abilities right up until the moment he did actually tell Osha what the plan was. And your criticism of Sansa is the poorest of all - who the hell didn't see how terrified and careful Sansa was across the last two seasons, all the bullying Joffrey did and the way Olena and Margarey had to pull the truth out of her... her performance was amazing and was packed full of unspoken tension! In season 1 I thought she was kinda dull and boring but the way she portrayed the character in Seasons 2 and 3 I have really come to respect her as an actress.

You're clutching at straws my friend. There are a few problems with the show but the script is not one of them, on the contrary, the script is absolutely one of the best things about the show and the awards and Emmys and global phemonenon that GoT has become because of this TV show is testimony to that.

When you say 'doesn't mean it can't be shown' you are talking about the script right? As in the lines the characters speak? As for squandering glances and unspoken observations, it would take me about five seconds to put together a series of screenshots clearly demonstrating otherwise. In the RW - nowhere near as good as it was in the book, I know, but nonetheless - Cat's unspoken observations were signalling to the audience something was wrong from the moment the doors were closed behind the bedding party and the band started playing BatMF, a good 5 mins before Talisa was murked (thank god for that!)

Speaking of things wrong with the show and Talisa... why Red God, why?

Anyway, the books and the TV show are different from other books put onto screen - they compliment each other in a sublime way, so that each experience offers something different. The differences between them should be cherished!

*I want to take one more opportunity to thank you for bringing the term 'Snowcastle' into forum rhetoric, even though others may have used it before I'd never seen it. Snowcastle, Snowcastle, Snowcastle...

Also, GREAT POSTING, CHECK IT OUT:

You mean the Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening seen?

[The hairy bear]

bbstark said it could be easily shot, with a parallel editing between the actual scorched Winterfell and Sansa's castle. I think it's reasonable, and within the writing the showrunners have shown to produce.

Sansa Stark is not among the characters B&W seem to be particularly interested about. I really can't see them expending any significant part of their fx budget in creating a low-key Sansa-centered scene. Not at all.

If they include the castle, which I doubt, I'm convinced they won't give it the importance many fans do. They'll center in the kiss, Lysa's madness, and Littlefinger.

[Ladylance]

The age of consent is 16 in the UK, but you have to be 18 to do nude scenes/topless scenes. A kiss should be ok, though.

The best way to deal with Sansa scenes on the show is to expect nothing and then you may be pleasantly suprised. D&D tend to focus on the more "exciting" characters with more traditional fantasy storylines. If we get the castle scene, I doubt it will be anywhere near as powerful as in the books.

[CakeOfTheMorning]

Wow, relax dude. If you were referencing my post, I've never meant it as 'never as good as book' but rather as 'these screenwriters are likely to botch it because they've shown few skills to translate internal conflicts and emotions into the screen'

If the subtlety of TV is lost on you, it doesn't mean that the show runners are doing a bad job. In TV, as well as in books (although I realize it is hard to believe given the subject of this board), less is more.

[ObsidianEdge]

As the books progress, characters are eliminated and story focus changes. She'll get her due in the show. Now is not her time, but it will come.

[Les Météores]

We know, mostly based on Jon and Sansa's arcs this season how the show deals with internal conflicts and thoughts. That is, they ignore them completely,

Unless using voice-overs it's impossible to transcribe it on screen, that's the basic difference between literature and audiovisual arts. It's all bout the dialogues and the body language of the actors. GoT actors are doing a pretty good job at that, imo. Better get use to never 'feel' or hear the characters thoughts on the show, you'll avoid useless disappointments and VO would have been terrible anyway.

There are reason why most of classic novels are almost always a failure to adapt. Example: War and Peace, the closet and more faithful to the book is the soviet film series, 431 minutes long, filled with VO.

Someone brought up in the other thread the issue of whether Aidan Gillen could kiss Sophie Turner, who is still just barely a minor, and have it be legal. Anyone clear in regards to UK law on that particularly subject?

A kiss on the cheek should be enough if that's a problem, Gillen can play the lustful a** very well :P

[juanml82]

Cersei and Jaime make extensive use of monologues. That's not, however, what's I'm proposing as I perfectly understand those things don't translate well into a screen. And if you guys check the OP, you'll notice I'm saying they should do something different with that scene, not using voice overs.

Now maybe you are right and the show will make it more than just Sansa playing in the snow, getting angry with SR for breaking her castle and LF kissing her while Lysa watches. I actually hope you're right. But I just don't see it happening.

Compare, for instance, Martin Scorsese 'The Departed' with Jon's arc since he joined the wildlings. While it's true that Leonardo Di Caprio's character in that movie goes well beyond what Jon is willing to do to remain undercover and Scorsese is one of the best filmmakers in Hollywood, Di Caprio's character's internal conflict is despited in a far more intense and clear way than Jon's.

Other internal conflicts are simply glossed over and my point about Sansa's character's inconsistencies aren't about the lack of her thoughts, but about her actions. In Blackwater, she's goading Joffrey into getting killed. In this season premiere, she's cynic and a bit smart in her short interaction with LF. She shows some growth, again with him, by canceling her escape plan. And then we have her wondering if her family would go to her wedding with Loras, not reacting at Margery's mention of her children ruling Winterfell (and the ongoing chat), and returning to normalcy in her wedding only to show she's incapable of foul language in the season finale.