Bran warging Hodor

[Spinebreaker]

The debate still rages? Christ... Bran can do whatever the hell he wants; it's his moral constitution, and his alone. Arguing about whether you believe something to be intrinsically 'wrong' does not render the act as 'wrong'. Bran is as Bran does - good for him.

You heard him everyone. The characters in the books will do whatever the do, and good for them!

Let's never discuss the actions of any characters ever again!

If you object to the discussion that much then it takes absolutely no time at all not to post at all.

[Daecon Dayne]

You heard him everyone. The characters in the books will do whatever the do, and good for them!

Let's never discuss the actions of any characters ever again!

If you object to the discussion that much then it takes absolutely no time at all not to post at all.

I very much encourage the discussion; it's great that we can share a discourse on here. Whilst it's sweet to explore discussions like these in depth, I just don't enjoy black-and-white conclusions. Sorry, Bran is as Bran does!

[Spinebreaker]

No, I will continue my point that he is not educated enough to understand that what he is doing is wrong. He is 9 years old. He has never been taught about this subject.

My eldest son is 4. Neither me, nor his mother or Grandparents have specifically taught him that kicking cats is wrong (I'm dubious myself even whether it *is* wrong ;-) ). He stops his little brother kicking the cat. Children are capable of knowing something is wrong without specific instruction. Children aren't empty of all ideas until instructed.

As far as he is concerned Hodor is an empty headed boy who is perfectly happy doing what he's been told - which has generally been true.

No, this is one area Bran HAS been specifically instructed in. As has been quoted 3 or 4 times in this discussion. Bran has been taught to treat Hodor with the respect he's entitled to as a man, regardless of his mental shortcomings.

He ''cowes Hodor into submission and uses him'' and this is different to how any servant in ASoIaF is treated how?

The Starks have shown themselves to be more moral than that. With regard to most things anyway.

As I have said before, slipping in to Hodor's mind is now for Bran like putting on an old boot. Hodor is definitely used to it by now, and doesn't suffer during Bran's strolls through the tunnels.

1 - Treating someone you've been specifically taught to respect like an old boot is not morally acceptable.

2 - Hodor suffers every time it's described, unless you're doing a REALLY selective reread.

I very much encourage the discussion; it's great that we can share a discourse on here. Whilst it's sweet to explore discussions like these in depth, I just don't enjoy black-and-white conclusions. Sorry, Bran is as Bran does!

I don't think there's a black and white conclusion... I just think Bran has taken a couple of steps in a darker direction, *if* it's the plan for his character to continue down this path, Bran definitely isn't gonna be a General on the side of good.

[mrunderhill]

No, I will continue my point that he is not educated enough to understand that what he is doing is wrong. He is 9 years old. He has never been taught about this subject. He has never been told this is an ''abomination''. As far as he is concerned Hodor is an empty headed boy who is perfectly happy doing what he's been told - which has generally been true. He's always humming to himself and smiling. He ''cowes Hodor into submission and uses him'' and this is different to how any servant in ASoIaF is treated how? Hodor has always been submissive and his main purpose in the series has been to be used by Bran, this is no different.

As I have said before, slipping in to Hodor's mind is now for Bran like putting on an old boot. Hodor is definitely used to it by now, and doesn't suffer during Bran's strolls through the tunnels.

This is just not true. Bran HAS been taught that Hodor is a human and should not be forced to do anything. This is what is set up by the example of the crypts. Bran is taught that it is wrong to force Hodor to go into the crypts be beating him. Hodor as a man has a right to say no.

This is ultimately the difference between slavery and being a servant. In Westeros if a servant quits, he is not beaten or killed (providing the Lord is just), but is allowed to leave and must make it on his own. Now of course surviving outside by yourself is hard, but there is a choice.

Bran knows all of this and firmly buys into it. He knows that you should not bully Hodor, he knows you should not force Hodor to do things he does not want, he knows that a good Lord should protect the weak and not abuse them.

Bran is not the same boy he used to be. That is the problem with magic.

[Frozentree]

I very much encourage the discussion; it's great that we can share a discourse on here. Whilst it's sweet to explore discussions like these in depth, I just don't enjoy black-and-white conclusions. Sorry, Bran is as Bran does!

Agree. 90% of posts in here are either "he is bad and should be frowned" or "it is completely OK, shut up". That is not what discussion is supposed to be about, you should be giving ideas not general opinions like agree/disagree and trying to outshout the others, that is going nowhere

[Sullen]

The Starks are a family of honor, who actually cared for their smallfolk, at least more than any other noble family we've gotten to know.

You spelled Martell wrong.

The Starks are just as bad as every other High Lord, parasites willing to go to war for trivial reasons and thus endanger that lives of thousands and thousands of innocent peasants.

And Bran's repeated forceful insertion in Hodor's gushy, unwilling consciousness is absolutely analogous to rape. The more Hodor struggles the deeper Bran inserts his mind in the mentally handicapped man.

I would even say that the perverse act could easily be worse than rape.

[Daecon Dayne]

I very much encourage the discussion; it's great that we can share a discourse on here. Whilst it's sweet to explore discussions like these in depth, I just don't enjoy black-and-white conclusions. Sorry, Bran is as Bran does!

I don't think there's a black and white conclusion...

A) Bran knows it's harmful. It's in black and white in the books. Bran understands it is wrong.

Derp.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Derp.

You might want to look a bit closer at those posts and realize that Spinebreakers addressing quite different questions there: One about Bran's overall morality and the other about whether Bran realizes that he's hurting Hodor. And indeed, one isn't black and white and the other clearly is. Derp.

[Spinebreaker]

Derp.

Teehee... Cheers Deacon. You have literally just made my day. It's not often I actually laugh out loud while on the internet, but this was one of those times.

Here you go, just in case English isn't your first language...

Spinebreaker, on Yesterday, 11:34 PM, said:

"I don't think there's a black and white conclusion..."

"Black and White" Meaning a strict, straightforward good/evil concept. Duality. Binary thinking. Mutually exclusive polarity.

Spinebreaker, on Yesterday, 01:29 PM, said:

"A) Bran knows it's harmful. It's in black and white in the books. Bran understands it is wrong."

"In black and white" Meaning written in front of you. Black ink on White page. Blatant, Directly in view.

Context, context, context.

Again, cheers!

[Breastplate Stretcha]

I very much encourage the discussion; it's great that we can share a discourse on here. Whilst it's sweet to explore discussions like these in depth, I just don't enjoy black-and-white conclusions. Sorry, Bran is as Bran does!

Black-and-white conclusions? We're seeing the potential for abuse of a great power.. not making any conclusions at all.

[Daecon Dayne]

Black-and-white conclusions? We're seeing the potential for abuse of a great power.. not making any conclusions at all.

I was addressing this to Spinebreaker's prior posts, a lot of the stuff on this thread is food for thought. Just to clarify... My point is that because Bran see's something as harmful/distressing to another, doesn't make it 'wrong', it makes him conflicted (or not). Feeling guilty or contrite about something is a substantial premise for morality. Unless you're religious, believe in divine virtues, or something of that ilk, morality should be subjective. Thankfully, for the large part, we share almost-identical stances on things like rape, genocide, etc. But believing in absolute moral truths is dangerous and absurd.

Here you go, just in case English isn't your first language...

Crikey. We certainly make each other laugh, it seems. Here's to the beginning of a beautiful friendship! :cheers:

[Spinebreaker]

My point is that because Bran see's something as harmful/distressing to another, doesn't make it 'wrong', it makes him conflicted (or not).

I don't think most people in this thread are using the word 'wrong' in quite such stark (hehe) terms.

Bran is doing something he knows he shouldn't really be doing. Something he'd be uncomfortable doing in front of people. I, personally, think this is a change (slight one, yes) from the Bran of AGOT. A change in a certain direction.

But believing in absolute moral truths is dangerous and absurd.

Including that one? ;)

Crikey. We certainly make each other laugh, it seems. Here's to the beginning of a beautiful friendship!

I look forward to disagreeing with you again in the future! :fencing:

[Belisarius09]

I could see Hodor killing Bran in retaliation for the repeated warging.

[Spinebreaker]

I see Bran sacrificing Hodor TBH. Not give him as a gift to the gods... But allowing him to die.

[Morienthar]

I could see Hodor killing Bran in retaliation for the repeated warging.

Bran is killing hordor slowly by warging him.

[Spinebreaker]

1) Bran has always been taught that skinchangers don't exist, I don't think a 9 year old (no matter how mature) can be expected to grapple with the reality of what he is, on top of being a cripple, on top of what he saw in the Heart of Winter and also be expected to be completely aware of the morality of whether or not he should be doing what he is doing.

I'm not doubting he's had a difficult time. Not even doubting that there is perhaps justification for his lack of consideration toward Hodor. Bran's been taught skinchangers don't exist, true. But he *IS* one. That's pretty easy to reconcile really, especially with Old Nan's education...

Here's what I think point by point.

Bran knows hurting Hodor is wrong, we know that from the text.

Bran tries to justify it to himself in several ways.

Bran warging Hodor to save them all, is a necessary evil. 100% justifiable.

Bran warging Hodor to explore a cave when Summer is an option is selfish, and cruel.

2) In real life, pain is much less present than in ASoIaF. Bran may know that he is causing Hodor pain, but considering the omnipresent hardships of life in the North coupled with the pain and suffering Bran as already gone through, I think it's fair to say he has a different perspective on pain than Hodor. That doesn't neccessarily make his actions right, but I don't think he should be persecuted for them when he doesn't have the same understanding of pain as Hodor does, or we do.

I see what you're saying, but look at it this way... The hardships of modern life are very much a product of the society we belong to. Life is much easier for someone living in a first world country than a third world country. pain is more present in Somalia for instance than say, Denmark.

2 people, the same age, same sex, get stabbed, one in Somalia one in Denmark. Is the Somalian one a 'lesser' crime 'cause the people of Somalia are 'used' to feeling hardship/pain.?

3) Bran has been taught to respect Hodor, true, but does he necessarily know that this is disrespectful? He has been taught to treat Hodor fairly, and well. But as far as he is concerned he's still an empty vessel. Derision is heaped on fools (not just the jester kind) throughout the series, and although Bran as a Stark is above that, it doesn't mean he thinks of Hodor as intelligent enough to justify not using such a useful tool.

Here I just flat out disagree. Yes, Bran knows 'causing massive distress to Hodor is disrespectful. He's been taught that Hodor is a man and should be treated as such, nowhere has he been taught that Hodor is an empty vessel for his own personal use.

4) I'm not suggesting he treats him like an old boot, only that it feels very comfortable and easy to be in his mind.

Comfortable for Bran, vastly different for Hodor.

[Daecon Dayne]

Including that one? ;)

I look forward to disagreeing with you again in the future! :fencing:

Haha yes, IMO. Well played, good ser!

[Arya_Ghostface]

Not sure where I stand on this one. Many excellent points made in the case against warging Hodor. I don't agree that it shows Bran in a dark light though. He understands there is someting effed up about it and feels very awkward and regrets doing it. Sure, he did warg Hodor in non-life-and-death situations (exploring the caves), but I think that's just a 9-year-old being sulky for not having his way. Hardly something to judge him for. And he justifies himself by saying that he ended up being very helpful because he helped Jojen up a dangerous spot, or something along those lines.

So what I think is happening is that Bran is at a crossroads at the moment, he will either realise that he has to stop warging Hodor because it's wrong, or he'll end up finding nothing wrong with it and keep doing it. And maybe each of these decisions will be linked to whether he will go on his greenseer education with BR or not.

[Lord Ravenstark]

The first time he warged Hodor (Bran III in A Storm of Sword (III) ) he looked scared. It was "half second".... but it happened.

Maybe Bran will be so powerful (he is, by his own powers, one of the most powerful POV characters) that he will simple don't care about lesser beings? Who knows....

Just kidding. Or being unhappily right.

Think about it: If us, I think everyone here have more than 9 years, aren't going to reach a true consensus... imagine a kid. Of course he can be just cruel, kids CAN be cruel and evil and they know it. Go to a elementary school and see for yourself.

(Ok, I was reading this and I think that I need back to elementary school, the first time I wrote this... well, the worst grammar I ever wrote. I like to think I am just sleepy)