Bran warging Hodor

[The Bastard of Summer]

He saw Old Nan naked.

Ahh. Well that would do it. Thank you.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

It is wrong but blame does not go to bran. He 9 year old crippled boy who had no education about warging. Blame goes to Jaime and Theon.

[Daecon Dayne]

It's only about as morally ambiguous as making Hodor carry him everywhere, really. Why should Hodor be Bran's muel, because he's strong and enough and lacks intelligence? Neither of them know better: Bran is a crippled child who can finally walk and feel strong again, so I sympathise with him; Hodor doesn't understand what the hell is happening, which is why I assume he doesn't like it, so I sympathise with him also (I doubt a lot of people would enjoy it).

However, Bran reserves a special place in my heart, so he could quite literally sodomise Hodor against his will and I'd probably look the other way. The question we should all be asking is: "Hodor?"

[roxWolfox]

I just saw Bran as 'seeing' Hodor as his subject. Bran is a Stark -- a noble, a prince -- and Hodor is not his peer in any way, shape or form. Hodor represents his legs or his 'ride', but not much more. Meera and Jojen are close to being Bran's peers, the Children and Brynden are alien, so beyond his concept; but Hodor has always been far below him from an aristocratic concept, as well as a 'learned' concept.

I know it sounds callous, but Bran is just a boy after all. He'll learn...not everyone is Doran Martell or Jon Snow right off the kick.

[Spinebreaker]

It is wrong but blame does not go to bran. He 9 year old crippled boy who had no education about warging. Blame goes to Jaime and Theon.

I've had no education about Hand Grenades. It's still wrong if I use them to blow innocent people up.

I've had no education about rat poison. It's still wrong if I put it in people's soup.

I'm sure Jaime didn't have Incest lessons as a child every week... So that's not his fault either.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

I just saw Bran as 'seeing' Hodor as his subject. Bran is a Stark -- a noble, a prince -- and Hodor is not his peer in any way, shape or form. Hodor represents his legs or his 'ride', but not much more. Meera and Jojen are close to being Bran's peers, the Children and Brynden are alien, so beyond his concept; but Hodor has always been far below him from an aristocratic concept, as well as a 'learned' concept.

I know it sounds callous, but Bran is just a boy after all. He'll learn...not everyone is Doran Martell or Jon Snow right off the kick.

I disagree. Bran, the boy who always wanted to be a great knight, was never interested in his duties as prince or lord of WF. IMO, he saw Hodor as a companion like Summer, not a subject that he could impose his will on to.

[Daecon Dayne]

I've had no education about Hand Grenades. It's still wrong if I use them to blow innocent people up.

I've had no education about rat poison. It's still wrong if I put it in people's soup.

I'm sure Jaime didn't have Incest lessons as a child every week... So that's not his fault either.

Well, you know what hand-grenades and rat poison do, so yes, you would be educated enough to know differently. And if they were "innocent people", well... then you have a choice to be 'evil' or morally sound. It's up to you.

As to Jaime - you can't help who you love. Incest or no, he loves (loved) Cersei. Besides, incest being morally 'wrong' is completely unfounded. If you're basing that on the product of incest being deficient offspring, then you would concur that disabled/defective individuals are 'wrong'.

[Summah]

I think that most 9 year olds understand that it's wrong to be be cruel to someone who is intellectually disabled, yes some of them still are cruel (as are some adults too unfortunately), but it's not acceptable behavior. Hodor is a man who is intellectually disabled, but he's still a person with thoughts and feelings, desires and needs. I actually think this makes it even worse than doing to someone with "normal" intelligence because people with developmental disabilities are more vulnerable than the general population as a whole. That said, I think the first time when it was a matter of life and death was justifiable, but even in that situation the action was morally grey. The subsequent times were abusive.

[Spinebreaker]

Well, you know what hand-grenades and rat poison do, so yes, you would be educated enough to know differently. And if they were "innocent people", well... then you have a choice to be 'evil' or morally sound. It's up to you.

Just like Bran knows what Warging does. Just as Bran is educated enough to know differently. Hodor is innocent. Bran has a choice to be 'evil' or morally sound. It's up to him. He chose to hurt an innocent. Not only that, but an innocent, loyal friend. Bran commited an evil act. I, personally, don't believe it will be the last.

As to Jaime - you can't help who you love. Incest or no, he loves (loved) Cersei. Besides, incest being morally 'wrong' is completely unfounded. If you're basing that on the product of incest being deficient offspring, then you would concur that disabled/defective individuals are 'wrong'.

My point was that by your logic (lack of education = no culpability) Jaime cannot be blamed for the results of his incest.

[InzaghI]

OK, everything is justified. I'll torture all the women and children on Westeros unless their men agree to join my army. Am I still the hero? I burn alive every baby on westeros to use blood magic to defeat the others, is that justified?

I think Bran'll have to do far worse too. Then again I doubt Bran is ending this series as a hero.

No one in this thread has claimed that Bran is a hero.

If burning every baby in Westeros was necessary to prevent the death of everyone, then yes, it is justified. Leaders in our world have decided that killing far more was justified in saving far fewer.

Well that makes it OK then.

I can't afford the car I want on my own either, so I'll force someone to give me their money at knifepoint. - It's fine because I can't afford it on my own.

If not having that car meant that everyone died, then yes, stealing would be OK.

[Daecon Dayne]

Just like Bran knows what Warging does. Just as Bran is educated enough to know differently. Hodor is innocent. Bran has a choice to be 'evil' or morally sound. It's up to him. He chose to hurt an innocent. Not only that, but an innocent, loyal friend. Bran commited an evil act. I, personally, don't believe it will be the last.

My point was that by your logic (lack of education = no culpability) Jaime cannot be blamed for the results of his incest.

Firstly, yeah, I agree with you (Bran should know better); but the analogy we're using here is as clear-cut as killing somebody, or not. I don't think that a child can truly appreciate autonomy and its importance. Is it wrong for him to warg Summer?

Secondly, I'm not proclaiming that a lack of education negates culpability; I'm saying that you can be as educated about incest as you like, it doesn't make it 'wrong'. You insinuated that incest was wrong; I remain curious as to why you (seem to) think this. I didn't see Jaime and Cersei's relationship as 'wrong'. And, for the record, no, I don't think Jaime can be blamed for the "results of his incest" (if you are indeed referring to Joffrey). Apologies if you feel I'm putting words in your mouth.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

If not having that car meant that everyone died, then yes, stealing would be OK.

I don't see why we have to go to these extremes or even discuss Bran's status as a hero or villain right now.

Bran used Hodor's mind to simply explore a cave. This frivolous use of his power definitely has some sinister implications.

I think that most 9 year olds understand that it's wrong to be be cruel to someone who is intellectually disabled, yes some of them still are cruel (as are some adults too unfortunately), but it's not acceptable behavior. Hodor is a man who is intellectually disabled, but he's still a person with thoughts and feelings, desires and needs. I actually think this makes it even worse than doing to someone with "normal" intelligence because people with developmental disabilities are more vulnerable than the general population as a whole. That said, I think the first time when it was a matter of life and death was justifiable, but even in that situation the action was morally grey. The subsequent times were abusive.

:agree:

Welcome to the boards!

[InzaghI]

Doesn't make it right to enslave someone to do it for you. Exploring the cave isn't necessary to his survival, and even if there is stuff in there that might be plot relevant, he has Meera, Jojen who can go and have a look, or he can just ask BR or the CotF. Moreover, he can warg Summer, who does consent to it and explore using him if he really needs to.

The only time when it's OK to warg Hodor against his will is when it's in Hodor's best interests for Bran to do so (generally speaking that means life and death situations or situations when they risk capture and Hodor can't be relied upon to do what's needed without Bran's intervention, although as somebody mentioned, one could make a case that it's acceptable to try and warg him in order to gain a better understanding of him given the problem with communication that would still be ethically dubious though, given the trauma involved). Not for shits and giggles

Bran doesn't know what's in that cave. There may be threats that Meera, Jojen, or a warged Summer can't deal with. If the life and death of every human depended on the safety of that cave, and if there was a threat that only Bran warged in Hodor was capable of dealing with, would Bran be justified?

[WidoW101MakeR]

If the pain aspect of it was removed would that make it less evil? Maybe after a few times it will get easier and less of a shock to Hondor. It just seems to go hand and hand a giant man who doesn't have full use of his mind, and a small boy without full use of his body.

[Spinebreaker]

He can't explore the cave on his own.

Well that makes it OK then.

I can't afford the car I want on my own either, so I'll force someone to give me their money at knifepoint. - It's fine because I can't afford it on my own.

If not having that car meant that everyone died, then yes, stealing would be OK.

Bran exploring that cave was not life or death. It wasn't even important. Bran just wanted to do it, and took Hodor to do it.

Firstly, yeah, I agree with you (Bran should know better); but the analogy we're using here is as clear-cut as killing somebody, or not. I don't think that a child can truly appreciate autonomy and its importance. Is it wrong for him to warg Summer?

It's not even that specific. Summer seems to have no issue with Warging. Bran is made to feel welcome. It's not about Autonomy, or even understanding what Warging is. It's about Bran's actions and their effects. The issue is that Bran is doing *something* that he sees is causing mental/physical distress and continuing to do it when not a survival issue.

If every time Bran whistled it gave Hodor a pain in his head for example.

Bran whistling to save everyone's life : OK.

Bran whistling again later, for fun : Cruel and selfish

You insinuated that incest was wrong; I remain curious as to why you (seem to) think this.

A little off-topic, and a MASSIVE discussion in itself. the same reason I consider anything 'morally wrong' The societal construct to which I belong basically. Much like everyyone else. The context of my existance has taught me what the human race at the current time considers morally acceptable (or not).

I didn't see Jaime and Cersei's relationship as 'wrong'.

Really? I understand there was genuine feeling from Jaime's side, but Cersei (Though, indeed loving him) was using him all along. Regardless, lack of education about a subject doesn't automatically absolve people of blame/responsibility.

[Summah]

If the pain aspect of it was removed would that make it less evil? Maybe after a few times it will get easier and less of a shock to Hondor. It just seems to go hand and hand a giant man who doesn't have full use of his mind, and a small boy without full use of his body.

So it's ok to take advantage of disabled people because they're disabled?

I don't think it's ok unless Hodor gives consent to be warged. And I don't see how he could give consent, so even it weren't painful it's abusive. That said life and death situations could make it justifiable, but still morally dubious. Only the first time was justifiable, Bran could have used Summer to explore the cave.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

If the pain aspect of it was removed would that make it less evil?

In my opinion, not at all.

It just seems to go hand and hand a giant man who doesn't have full use of his mind, and a small boy without full use of his body.

From my point-of-view that is just high potential for abuse.

[A Crow Come Over]

If the pain aspect of it was removed would that make it less evil?

If a rapist is gentle, does that make it less evil? Kind of a silly question to ask.

[InzaghI]

I don't see why we have to go to these extremes or even discuss Bran's status as a hero or villain right now.

Bran used Hodor's mind to simply explore a cave. This frivolous use of his power definitely has some sinister implications.

I didn't bring up Bran's status as a hero. He is certainly fighting for the living against the dead.

Bran didn't know what was in that cave. It wouldn't be "frivolous" if there was a threat that only he, warged in Hodor, could deal with.

[Spinebreaker]

I didn't bring up Bran's status as a hero. He is certainly fighting for the living against the dead.

In the novels as far as I can see there's no certainty whatsoever. Bran's done 2 things considered 'abominations' to wargs. He's being educated by an incredibly morally questionable individual among creepy, sinister beings who's major contribution to westeros is scary faces on blood drinking trees. I don't see ANYTHING certain about Bran's story arc at this point.

Bran didn't know what was in that cave. It wouldn't be "frivolous" if there was a threat that only he, warged in Hodor, could deal with.

What sort of threat would 'only Hodor' be able to deal with when Bran has a Direwolf on hand? A Direwolf that's easier for Bran to control no less.