Bran warging Hodor

[Kienn]

Last post since I've made every point that I can and don't care to restate them anymore.

Looking at what Bran actually thinks in DwD (if someone finds a more incriminating line for Bran feel free to post it to prove me wrong)

Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt him, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it’s me, the boy liked to tell himself. He’s used to me by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable inside Hodor’s skin. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth. It was better inside Summer. I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel.

Bran "likes to tell himself" that Hodor is somewhat used to it. This is incriminating because it shows that maybe he knows it's not ok on some level.

This goes to my "b" argument, that what Bran is doing is wrong, but he is only a child so doesn't fully appreciate what he's doing actually is wrong, so he justifies it to himself like a child would do.

Bran can feel Hodor's fear, there's another line later on in DwD about Bran feeling Hodor go to his safe place deep inside, another instance of Bran sensing that Hodor is uncomfortable with the situation.

Both these lines go to my "a" argument, that Hodor reacts similarly to many harmless things so his fear doesn't necessarily mean anything objectively. If anything it shows that even if it would be ok to warg a willing person, Hodor can never actually be a willing person because of his handicap so Bran should not be warging Hodor, which goes back to my "b" argument.

My "c" argument is that we don't actually know if warging a human is objectively a "wrong" thing. If the person is willing, it may be fine. If the person is unwilling then it is not fine.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

No I'm arguing

a) that Bran doesn't fully appreciate that it is harmful because Hodor reacts similarly to harmless things.

b ) if it is harmful Bran is only a child and can be excused such just as all children are.

c) that it may not be harmful at all because Haggon and Varymyr are not necessarily correct on all things.

If warging were a real thing I would read other people's opinions about what it was like before I try it. Maybe

I would let a friend do it to me to see what it was like for myself. Maybe some people call it disgusting and other people think it's awesome and I want to find out for myself.

Would I do it to another person [or animal] without their consent? No. But I'm not a child.

You are taking 1 character's statement as an absolute fact and using that to implicate Bran(a child) when he was never even told.

Did no one catch this? HAHAH

Bran cares for Hodor, and not just in a lord/vassal way. The Starks are a family of honor, who actually cared for their smallfolk, at least more than any other noble family we've gotten to know. The first time he warged Hodor, it was as some on the board have suggested - an instinctual move completely necessary for that particular instant. Same thing for when they were struggling to get into the cave, and Bran needed Hodors strength to make it with the rest of the party. He is definitely testing the waters with the cave walking, but we dont know where its going - it certainly isnt motivated by a rapist's mentality of domination and violence. He will either learn from BR that this is not something to do lightly (especially considering Hodor's capacity), or BR may be tempting Bran to try it out on Hodor as a means to a very different end. We dont know yet what BR's motivations are - we just know he has incredible power, we have a good idea of who he is, but we dont know what he is getting at.

I dont see the comparison between Varamyr trying to warg a woman as he died and Bran warging Hodor to wander the cave. Varamyr was planning on taking her body over completely, to live in it, and he is fully aware of what that entails. Bran barely knows what is going on, and he is a 9 year old kid who lost the ability to walk. We are not talking Joffrey cutting open a pregant cat here. Until we see Bran do something cruel to Hodor, or anyone for that matter, we cant just place a sadistic mindset on him for dabbling in completely unknown skills that he has just discovered he has.

He is a 10 year old kid, with a super power, taking psychological/physical (i'm not sure what it is, probably both) advantage of someone way weaker than him. How is that not bad?

Characters, who do such things, usually end up as some bad ass super villains...

It's like saying, if i had Matt's power from Heroes(telepathy, controllling minds, making people forget), that it would be totally ok to make people do what ever i want, so long as they understand what is happening to them, that's just bs...

[mrunderhill]

How do you know it's a better bond with wolves and not simply that they have weaker minds that are completely unable to resist, perhaps the bond is so weak the "warg" can't even sense the "pain" in the wolf but the bond is stronger with a bear so it can actually tell the bear is in discomfort. Perhaps wargs bond best with humans because they can finally sense the discomfort at full scale.

I base by assessment from the POV we get from Wargs. The bond with a wolf is actually the strongest and last for life. Bran himself comments on how it feels different being with Summer.

Maybe wargs just like using wolves the most because they are so far separated they don't have to become cognizant that what they're doing is cruel (most people who eat meat don't like to actually see the animal they're about to eat beforehand because that makes them actually think about what they're doing...)

No, because it is clear that other animals are not suited for waring. The Polar Bear resist bitterly and cats are not too loyal. Wolves and wargs connect permanently.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

This goes to my "b" argument, that what Bran is doing is wrong, but he is only a child so doesn't fully appreciate what he's doing actually is wrong, so he justifies it to himself like a child would do.

Bran can feel Hodor's fear, there's another line later on in DwD about Bran feeling Hodor go to his safe place deep inside, another instance of Bran sensing that Hodor is uncomfortable with the situation.

How would a victim of repeated raped react? Go to a psychological safe place and wait until it is over. Bran is brain raping Hodor, point.

[Spinebreaker]

Apparently Bran and Jon and Arya have all been brain-*@#$ing Summer, Ghost, and Nymeria then.

Key to the verb 'rape' is the lack of consent. The direwolves clearly are happy about it. Furthermore, all of the Direwolves are 'warged' naturally in dreams too.

As I've mentioned before, Hodor reacts similarly to many things, including his incessant wailing at lightning. You can witness this yourself firsthand if you spend any real amount of time with mentally challenged individuals(or with a child). They fight and cry and scream about things that are harmless or even helpful to them in the same way children do.

If a mentally challenged child is frightened of lightning for instance is it OK to force them repatedly outside in a storm? If they are scared of cats is it OK to wave a cat in their face every day?

No. It isn't. It's deliberately causing avoidable distress.

Then I suppose you never ever did anything as a child that you kept a secret. You were always perfectly comfortable to tell all your friends and family everything you did.

Because if not... clearly you are an abomination.

I sincerely doubt anyone on this forum was engaged in any brain-rape. Nice over-reaction though.

No I'm arguing

a) that Bran doesn't fully appreciate that it is harmful because Hodor reacts similarly to harmless things.

b ) if it is harmful Bran is only a child and can be excused such just as all children are.

c) that it may not be harmful at all because Haggon and Varymyr are not necessarily correct on all things.

A) Bran knows it's harmful. It's in black and white in the books. Bran understands it is wrong.

B ) Nonsense. Bran's 9 or 10. He's not a moron... Children of half that age understand cruelty. In Westeros Bran's maybe 3 or 4 years away from being considered a 'man'.

C) They're the best we have currently in the text.

[zmflavius]

Not to put it too finely, I haven't seen any decent response to the following comparison made earlier in this topic.

"Suppose Bran doesn't warg Hodor, but has a giant whip. If Hodor doesn't want to go somewhere, he hits him with the giant whip until Hodor agrees, The first time he did it, Hodor struggled mightily, now, Hodor just curls up in a corner and accepts it. Whenever Bran wants to explore the cave, he hits Hodor with the giant whip until Hodor moves."

Is this right or wrong, don't wait for the translaton, just answer yes or no!

[Frozentree]

Not to put it too finely, I haven't seen any decent response to the following comparison made earlier in this topic.

"Suppose Bran doesn't warg Hodor, but has a giant whip. If Hodor doesn't want to go somewhere, he hits him with the giant whip until Hodor agrees, The first time he did it, Hodor struggled mightily, now, Hodor just curls up in a corner and accepts it. Whenever Bran wants to explore the cave, he hits Hodor with the giant whip until Hodor moves."

Is this right or wrong, don't wait for the translaton, just answer yes or no!

Let's look at it from Bran's point of view. With warging, his view of the thing is:

Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt him, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it’s me, the boy liked to tell himself. He’s used to me by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable inside Hodor’s skin. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth. It was better inside Summer. I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel.

Let us replace the warging with the whip. We would get something like:

Other times, when he was tired of being a wolf, Bran slipped into Hodor’s skin instead. The gentle giant would whimper when he felt the whip, and thrash his shaggy head from side to side, but not as violently as he had the first time, back at Queenscrown. He knows it’s for the good, the boy liked to tell himself. He’s used to it by now. Even so, he never felt comfortable hitting Hodor. The big stableboy never understood what was happening, and Bran could taste the fear at the back of his mouth. It was better inside Summer. I am him, and he is me. He feels what I feel.

Call it bad if you will, and I will not tell you you are wrong, but in that case, Bran is a badly raised kid who needs slap behind ear, not an arrogant sociopath who does not care about hurting others.

[Spinebreaker]

Call it bad if you will, and I will not tell you you are wrong, but in that case, Bran is a badly raised kid who needs slap behind ear, not an arrogant sociopath who does not care about hurting others.

Not yet no.

[Frozentree]

Not yet no.

Depends on whether or not he does receive that slap behind ear. Please, do not take it too literally. It does not have to be a rebuke, but any event or situation which makes him rethink his views and actions.

[Summah]

I bet most of the people calling this an abomination would reverse their stance if Varymyr had said people loved being warged.

Even if people loved being warged, I still think it would be wrong without the consent of the person being warged.

He's not taking advantage he's using him to his full potental

Wow, I have no words. That is such an offensive attitude to take about the intellectually disabled.

[Morienthar]

Even if people loved being warged, I still think it would be wrong without the consent of the person being warged.

So,what we'd have consensual warging??

I think it's pretty easy to figure out that being a body snatcher is a bad thing even if Varymyr didn't say it.

[TepidHands]

"Suppose Bran doesn't warg Hodor, but has a giant whip. If Hodor doesn't want to go somewhere, he hits him with the giant whip until Hodor agrees, The first time he did it, Hodor struggled mightily, now, Hodor just curls up in a corner and accepts it. Whenever Bran wants to explore the cave, he hits Hodor with the giant whip until Hodor moves."

Is this right or wrong, don't wait for the translaton, just answer yes or no!

That is just so many shades of awesome. :bowdown:

I'm really more concerned what could happen when Bran discovers HODOR'S giant whip.

[BlueEyedCrow]

The Old Gods knew Bran would coem to lose the use of his legs, so they provided a simpleton like Hodor for Bran. Bran warging Hodor is all part of the plan. People say that Bran will stay North of the wall, which I agree with, but who is to say that Hodor cannot come back South, thus giving Bran more than just eyes and ears in the south but a physical form to do work. A crackpot theory that I like is that Bran will sit on Jon's Kingsguard as Hodor.

[Spinebreaker]

Depends on whether or not he does receive that slap behind ear. Please, do not take it too literally. It does not have to be a rebuke, but any event or situation which makes him rethink his views and actions.

I agree. If a child is on a somewhat 'grey' path and *doesn't* get that slap.... Well, then you end up with Joffrey.

The Old Gods knew Bran would coem to lose the use of his legs, so they provided a simpleton like Hodor for Bran. Bran warging Hodor is all part of the plan. People say that Bran will stay North of the wall, which I agree with, but who is to say that Hodor cannot come back South, thus giving Bran more than just eyes and ears in the south but a physical form to do work. A crackpot theory that I like is that Bran will sit on Jon's Kingsguard as Hodor.

Taking complete control of Hodor... Replacing Hodor's mind forever. A murderer and thief then. So yes, to the Wall with him.

[MikeTheSlayer]

Bran had hoped the the three eyed crow could give him back his legs. I think it can't be understated how damaging it was to Bran to learn that Bloodraven could not help him. I think Bran's wish to have some sort of physical agency is his motivation for Warging into Hodor. Not only is he disappointed that he will never walk again, but it appears to him that he is being trained to become the next last Greenseer. Would you like to be a ~10 year old boy and live out an unnaturally long life span stuck underground becoming intertwined with weirwood roots?

Not saying this is an excuse for Bran Hodor warging. It looks to me like his last chance to feel like a fully functionally human again. Wouldn't you want that if the rest of your days looking like they do to Bran at the moment.

PS I hope to God Bran leaved the lands of always winter before the end of the series and has an important role in the series end game.

[Summah]

So,what we'd have consensual warging??

I think it's pretty easy to figure out that being a body snatcher is a bad thing even if Varymyr didn't say it.

I agree that Bran should have known it was wrong without explicitly being told so. He's 9 or 10, old enough to know cruelty is wrong and Maester Luwin taught him it was wrong to abuse Hodor. the poster I responded to seemed to think that those of us who think bran's behavior is wrong would think it was ok if being warged were pleasant.

The Old Gods knew Bran would coem to lose the use of his legs, so they provided a simpleton like Hodor for Bran. Bran warging Hodor is all part of the plan. People say that Bran will stay North of the wall, which I agree with, but who is to say that Hodor cannot come back South, thus giving Bran more than just eyes and ears in the south but a physical form to do work. A crackpot theory that I like is that Bran will sit on Jon's Kingsguard as Hodor.

So the intellectually disabled aren't persons who deserve rights just like everyone else? They aren't individuals who have their own agency, needs, desires, thoughts, feelings? Their purpose is to be used by others? How is any of that ok on any level?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

The Old Gods knew Bran would coem to lose the use of his legs, so they provided a simpleton like Hodor for Bran. Bran warging Hodor is all part of the plan.

... and that's why there's nothing so callously dangerous as a person with too much faith.

[Mark Antony]

If Bran becomes a villain or antagonist (doubtful) I'll root for him.

[Daecon Dayne]

The debate still rages? Christ... Bran can do whatever the hell he wants; it's his moral constitution, and his alone. Arguing about whether you believe something to be intrinsically 'wrong' does not render the act as 'wrong'. Bran is as Bran does - good for him.

[Breastplate Stretcha]

... and that's why there's nothing so callously dangerous as a person with too much faith.

Took the thoughts right out of my brain....

Stop warging me!