mrunderhill Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 It's interesting that people hone in on one comparison only.What if we were to say that warging Hodor was the equivalent of punching him in the jaw, and knocking him out?After all, the result's the same... it would shut him up; it would knock him out; and he would be hurt by it.Yet, for some reason, that's not one of the comparisons getting made. Why? Is it because it's not as shocking/controversial?Let's see what waring Hodor means. It means taking Hodor's body and using it for your own desires against his will. It's an act that causes lots of mental scars and is possibly one of the greatest invasions of a person's privacy. What does it sound like to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Morally grey. He's a crippled 9 year old boy and trying to survive. Yes, it's horrible for Hodor, but I can't truly look down on Bran in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozentree Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Hodor is afraid, not angry or anything. Varamyr warging the bear which downright hated him was much more immoral than this, not even mentioning Thistle.In life-saving situations, it is completely fine. It is like shoving someone violently to save him form car - it hurts him, but it saves him, and he would be idiot to complain.It is immoral to do it to explore caves etc., especially since he has ravens there to do that for him, but as I mentioned before, it is not -that- evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Mithrandir Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Hodor is afraid, not angry or anything. Varamyr warging the bear which downright hated him was much more immoral than this, not even mentioning Thistle. So it's okay because he's mentally handicapped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Rob Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Let's see what waring Hodor means. It means taking Hodor's body and using it for your own desires against his will. It's an act that causes lots of mental scars and is possibly one of the greatest invasions of a person's privacy. What does it sound like to you?Yet Jedi do this all the time in Star Wars, and no one raises an eyebrow.The Doctor does it in Doctor Who, and no one raises an eyebrow.And I'm sure there are other examples, like the above, in sci-fi and fantasy, and no one raises an eyebrow.So what does it sound like to me? I think it sounds like there's some pretty weird interpretations of things in the GoT community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Yet Jedi do this all the time in Star Wars, and no one raises an eyebrow.I think there's some pretty weird interpretations of things in the GoT community.Even with the Jedi it is a dangerous slope. They try to only make mild suggestions, rather than direct mind control. Direct mind control is something very close to the darkside. However, Jedi are hardly the most moral people out there.This is Martin's world and he clearly portrays it as a very bad act, just like say Tolkien and other writers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozentree Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 So it's okay because he's mentally handicapped?No, it's not "okay" and it's not because he is handicapped. It is "acceptable" and it is because he bears Bran no ill will. There is huge difference between being scared of something and between hating someone. My comparison between Hodor and a bear has nothing to do with his handicap either, I generally view all humans equal to other animals as far as morality is concerned (and in this aspect, I support animal rights, not deny human rights). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 It's not that bad.1) Bran's never told it's bad, and Hodor doesn't react as if it's anything more than just something new and confusing at first.2) Even we as the readers don't know much about it so accepting it as "the worst thing ever" when we've only been told so briefly through 2 random characters in much different circumstances is foolish. - Varymyr was trying to take control of a person permanently and by force, not just temporarily.3) It's possible it could progress to worse things (slippery slope argument), but it's more likely Bran will find a more effective method to accomplish what he was using Hodor for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InzaghI Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 You can't consider the warging of Hodor as a single act, you need to put it in the larger context. Bran is fighting to save the living from the dead. Everything is justified because if they lose everyone will die. I suspect he'll have to do far worse before the story is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 You can't consider the warging of Hodor as a single act, you need to put it in the larger context. Bran is fighting to save the living from the dead. Everything is justified because if they lose everyone will die. I suspect he'll have to do far worse before the story is finished.He wargs Hodor so he can explore the cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not a kneeler Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Bran is not a perfect person. He's a handicapped little boy with only the moral guidance he learned before the fall of Winterfell, trying to do a job far beyond his years. He's trying to be the person in charge here and it's weighing on him. So does the burden of saving the world. So he has a moral lapse or two. I like him better for it. He's more human. Don't mistake me - I do feel for Hodor, but we see lasting effects, and I think if Bran saw any lasting effects on Hodor he would stop.Give the kid a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Bran is not a perfect person. He's a handicapped little boy with only the moral guidance he learned before the fall of Winterfell, trying to do a job far beyond his years. He's trying to be the person in charge here and it's weighing on him. So does the burden of saving the world. So he has a moral lapse or two. I like him better for it. He's more human. Don't mistake me - I do feel for Hodor, but we see lasting effects, and I think if Bran saw any lasting effects on Hodor he would stop.Give the kid a break.Warging another human is not just a moral lapse. Bran more than anyone has been trained and understood that Hodor is a human. I typed out the quotes in the other thread, but it was locked and I am not going to do so again. Just go and read the pages again. See how broken Hodor is. He is like a "whipped dog". Think of how horrific the torment must be for a grown man to lay down in fetal position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InzaghI Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 He wargs Hodor so he can explore the cave.He can't explore the cave on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinebreaker Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 ADwD takes place during 300AL, so he is at most 9 years old. Also, he may be well educated compared to the smallfolk, yes.He's educated enough to understand what he's doing is wrong. He observes it himself, he cowes Hodor into submission and uses him. The times it's for the groups survival is one thing, but to do it purely out of curiosity?What if we were to say that warging Hodor was the equivalent of punching him in the jaw, and knocking him out?After all, the result's the same... it would shut him up; it would knock him out; and he would be hurt by it.Yet, for some reason, that's not one of the comparisons getting made. Why? Is it because it's not as shocking/controversial?What about this... What if Bran is getting Hodor to do things by using a massive whip? Whipping him until he achieves whatever it is Bran wants. It hurts Hodor, Bran knows it's wrong, but it saves the group and enables BRan to do some exploring. Does that make Bran's massive whip OK?Yet Jedi do this all the time in Star Wars, and no one raises an eyebrow.The Doctor does it in Doctor Who, and no one raises an eyebrow.And I'm sure there are other examples, like the above, in sci-fi and fantasy, and no one raises an eyebrow.So what does it sound like to me? I think it sounds like there's some pretty weird interpretations of things in the GoT community.Doctor Who and Star Wars are both pretty low-brow entertainment. Dr. Who's a kids show. Neither are gonna deal with an issue like this in this fashion. EVER.You can't consider the warging of Hodor as a single act, you need to put it in the larger context. Bran is fighting to save the living from the dead. Everything is justified because if they lose everyone will die. I suspect he'll have to do far worse before the story is finished.OK, everything is justified. I'll torture all the women and children on Westeros unless their men agree to join my army. Am I still the hero? I burn alive every baby on westeros to use blood magic to defeat the others, is that justified?I think Bran'll have to do far worse too. Then again I doubt Bran is ending this series as a hero.He can't explore the cave on his own.Well that makes it OK then.I can't afford the car I want on my own either, so I'll force someone to give me their money at knifepoint. - It's fine because I can't afford it on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filleted Man Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I have a theory that, since Bran always wanted to be a knight and fight, somehow he will warg Hodor in battle. That is a bit far fetched though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastplate Stretcha Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Yet Jedi do this all the time in Star Wars, and no one raises an eyebrow.The Doctor does it in Doctor Who, and no one raises an eyebrow.And I'm sure there are other examples, like the above, in sci-fi and fantasy, and no one raises an eyebrow.So what does it sound like to me? I think it sounds like there's some pretty weird interpretations of things in the GoT community.Have you read the books? Because that's where we are getting these "weird" interpretations.In a series where magic is referred to as a "sword without a hilt" and warging into a man's mind is called an "abomination", one can't help but wonder if Bran has taken a dark turn in his story.ETA: try to avoid calling the people in this part of the forum the "GoT community" :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WidoW101MakeR Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Meh Hondor is not very useful other then his size, using him just so bran can walk is wrong but in a way brans presence in his head can clear up confusion and fear he has and can even help him use his strength more effectively. As long as he doesn't send him on a suicide mission I see no problem with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Summer Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 With Bran warging him maybe he can get a little insight as to why he only says Hodor? Yeah I know hes special and all but was there some kind of trauma that caused him not to speak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 was there some kind of trauma that caused him not to speak?He saw Old Nan naked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfell Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 He can't explore the cave on his own.Doesn't make it right to enslave someone to do it for you. Exploring the cave isn't necessary to his survival, and even if there is stuff in there that might be plot relevant, he has Meera, Jojen who can go and have a look, or he can just ask BR or the CotF. Moreover, he can warg Summer, who does consent to it and explore using him if he really needs to.The only time when it's OK to warg Hodor against his will is when it's in Hodor's best interests for Bran to do so (generally speaking that means life and death situations or situations when they risk capture and Hodor can't be relied upon to do what's needed without Bran's intervention, although as somebody mentioned, one could make a case that it's acceptable to try and warg him in order to gain a better understanding of him given the problem with communication that would still be ethically dubious though, given the trauma involved). Not for shits and giggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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