Bran warging Hodor

[Mark Antony]

I wonder what Bloodraven would think/thinks? about Bran warging Hodor.

[Kienn]

I bet most of the people calling this an abomination would reverse their stance if Varymyr had said people loved being warged.

You all keep saying Hodor is in pain, when is this mentioned? Hodor feel fear, not pain, from what I remember. Hodor also goes into an uncontrollable hissy fit from lightning (which I'm sure he has also experienced dozens of times before)... so it's hard to call his fear reaction proof of anything IMO.

I think this is in vein with people who think Arya is turning into a satanic cold murderer... people just want one of the "good" guys to go off kilter and crazy for some reason and are grasping for any evidence...

[Breastplate Stretcha]

I bet most of the people calling this an abomination would reverse their stance if Varymyr had said people loved being warged.

Of course we only say this because Haggon called it an abomination. We don't have Wargs in this world, so it would be hard to discuss the ethics of it without support from the text. I think it's important that he used the word "abomination" and not something like "You should try to avoid warging into humans". Makes it seem like the consequences could be severe, doesn't it?

I think this is in vein with people who think Arya is turning into a satanic cold murderer... people just want one of the "good" guys to go off kilter and crazy for some reason and are grasping for any evidence...

I'd rather not see Bran go off and use his power for selfish reasons. But, with the prologue of DwD and Bran warging Hodor more and more, I don't see why it couldn't be a possibility.

[zmflavius]

I don't think Bran warging Hodor is wrong at all, nor will it cause Hodor mental scars; if it is a legitimate mental invasion, the mind has ways to try and shut that whole thing down.

[Lemon_Cake]

I bet most of the people calling this an abomination would reverse their stance if Varymyr had said people loved being warged.

You all keep saying Hodor is in pain, when is this mentioned? Hodor feel fear, not pain, from what I remember. Hodor also goes into an uncontrollable hissy fit from lightning (which I'm sure he has also experienced dozens of times before)... so it's hard to call his fear reaction proof of anything IMO.

I think this is in vein with people who think Arya is turning into a satanic cold murderer... people just want one of the "good" guys to go off kilter and crazy for some reason and are grasping for any evidence...

Well, my problem is not varamyr opinion on the subject. The description, in Bran's Chapter, on the reaction of Hodor when he is being warged, is pretty disturbing, and the main reason i have a problem with his attitude.

[WidoW101MakeR]

So it's ok to take advantage of disabled people because they're disabled?

I don't think it's ok unless Hodor gives consent to be warged. And I don't see how he could give consent, so even it weren't painful it's abusive. That said life and death situations could make it justifiable, but still morally dubious. Only the first time was justifiable, Bran could have used Summer to explore the cave.

He's not taking advantage he's using him to his full potental

[jandslegate]

It's ironic that Brann did this to Hodor in order save himself and other's lives, despite the moral grey area. Whereas Jaime pushed Brann to save himself and other's lives as well. Not saying the two acts are equal by a long shot, though.

[Spinebreaker]

Hodor and Summer are among the pieces that Bran is able to move. At that moment he thought Hodor was the correct move to make.

If that's the way you choose to interpret it, fine. I saw Bran's jealousy of Jojen and Meera's ability to walk around (entirely understandable) and he decided "Hodor has legs and I can use Hodor whenever I like. Like now. Shut up whinging Hodor and cower like the worthless dog you are"

Al Qaeda didn't even exist "30 or so years ago"... Osama didn't form The Base for ~ another decade when it became clear that the US was a far greater threat to the Islamic World than the Soviet Union ever was.

If that's how you wish to interpret history, again, fine.

I as under the impression that the usage of 'Al Qaeda' as a noun started in the west, applied to several different, mostly Afghan based militant groups after a book was found with 'al qaeda' written on the front in the 80's. Even the latest estimations of Bin laden's involvement is 25 years ago. Regardless, Wildly off-topic.

The point is alliances change aas they are needed. Just cause the CotF helped the first men once, doesn't mean they're angels.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

To quote this night's True Blood:

Bran is brain raping Hodor... This is by no means ok or tolerable.

He pushes Hodor out of his body into a little corner in his mind and takes over the rest. This is actually alot worse than getting raped, at least in my opinion...

[Kienn]

Apparently Bran and Jon and Arya have all been brain-*@#$ing Summer, Ghost, and Nymeria then.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Apparently Bran and Jon and Arya have all been brain-*@#$ing Summer, Ghost, and Nymeria then.

One can argue, that the connection they share with their wolves and that it starts in dreams over which they have no control makes it ok. But i can see why skinchangers are hated throughout Westeros...

At least we never get such a fivid description of how the wolves strangle and fight when they get warged...

[mrunderhill]

Apparently Bran and Jon and Arya have all been brain-*@#$ing Summer, Ghost, and Nymeria then.

The reason they are called Wargs is not just, because someone liked the sound of the word. Read what Varamyr says about warging with wolves and the bond they have. This seems a mutual bond and wolves are the best suited animals for this, the warging causes the wolf no discomfort. Compare that with the polar bear Varamyr uses by force and you can see the difference. With the Polar Bear this is animal cruelty. I don't equate animals with humans. I don't believe in mistreating them, but I have no problem using them for food or clothing. I am not too keen on slaughtering humans for food, or using their skin for leather.

[Kienn]

At least we never get such a fivid description of how the wolves strangle and fight when they get warged...

As I've mentioned before, Hodor reacts similarly to many things, including his incessant wailing at lightning. You can witness this yourself firsthand if you spend any real amount of time with mentally challenged individuals(or with a child). They fight and cry and scream about things that are harmless or even helpful to them in the same way children do.

In the absolute worst judgement against Bran you can reasonably make he is [a child] doing something inappropriate/cruel to another [child]. We have access to his thoughts, we can see he is not doing any of this out of malice or enjoyment of cruelty or torture, but out of curiosity. Once again you will see many such things if you spend time around children.

Likely every one of you did something that someone may consider terrible to another child when you were a child. You may all judge each other abominations. You can argue degrees and such but it's all essentially rationalizations "oh at least what I did isn't as bad as X".

If Bran actually becomes aware he is doing something harmful or cruel and continues then you can start calling him abomination etc. Most children only stop such actions when reprimanded by adults and stop due to fear for punishments and only learn why it was wrong to do later in life. Some never actually learn why later and simply behave for fear of punishment, or continue once there are no adults to punish them (see Varymyr or any psychopathic criminal of your choice).

[mrunderhill]

As I've mentioned before, Hodor reacts similarly to many things, including his incessant wailing at lightning. You can witness this yourself firsthand if you spend any real amount of time with mentally challenged individuals(or with a child). They fight and cry and scream about things that are harmless or even helpful to them in the same way children do.

In the absolute worst judgement against Bran you can reasonably make he is [a child] doing something inappropriate/cruel to another [child]. We have access to his thoughts, we can see he is not doing any of this out of malice or enjoyment of cruelty or torture, but out of curiosity. Once again you will see many such things if you spend time around children.

Likely every one of you did something that someone may consider terrible to another child when you were a child. You may all judge each other abominations. You can argue degrees and such but it's all essentially rationalizations "oh at least what I did isn't as bad as X".

If Bran actually becomes aware he is doing something harmful or cruel and continues then you can start calling him abomination etc. Most children only stop such actions when reprimanded by adults and stop due to fear for punishments and only learn why it was wrong to do later in life. Some never actually learn why later and simply behave for fear of punishment, or continue once there are no adults to punish them (see Varymyr or any psychopathic criminal of your choice).

Bran knows it is harmful and cruel. Luwin gave him a good education about treating Hodor with respect, not forcing him to do things he does not want. We have access to Bran's thoughts and we know he considers it wrong, but does not care. There is a reason he is keeping it secret from everyone else.

[Kienn]

The reason they are called Wargs is not just, because someone liked the sound of the word. Read what Varamyr says about warging with wolves and the bond they have. This seems a mutual bond and wolves are the best suited animals for this, the warging causes the wolf no discomfort. Compare that with the polar bear Varamyr uses by force and you can see the difference. With the Polar Bear this is animal cruelty. I don't equate animals with humans. I don't believe in mistreating them, but I have no problem using them for food or clothing. I am not too keen on slaughtering humans for food, or using their skin for leather.

How do you know it's a better bond with wolves and not simply that they have weaker minds that are completely unable to resist, perhaps the bond is so weak the "warg" can't even sense the "pain" in the wolf but the bond is stronger with a bear so it can actually tell the bear is in discomfort. Perhaps wargs bond best with humans because they can finally sense the discomfort at full scale.

Maybe wargs just like using wolves the most because they are so far separated they don't have to become cognizant that what they're doing is cruel (most people who eat meat don't like to actually see the animal they're about to eat beforehand because that makes them actually think about what they're doing...)

[Kienn]

does not care. There is a reason he is keeping it secret from everyone else.

Then I suppose you never ever did anything as a child that you kept a secret. You were always perfectly comfortable to tell all your friends and family everything you did.

Because if not... clearly you are an abomination.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

As I've mentioned before, Hodor reacts similarly to many things, including his incessant wailing at lightning. You can witness this yourself firsthand if you spend any real amount of time with mentally challenged individuals(or with a child). They fight and cry and scream about things that are harmless or even helpful to them in the same way children do.

In the absolute worst judgement against Bran you can reasonably make he is [a child] doing something inappropriate/cruel to another [child]. We have access to his thoughts, we can see he is not doing any of this out of malice or enjoyment of cruelty or torture, but out of curiosity. Once again you will see many such things if you spend time around children.

Likely every one of you did something that someone may consider terrible to another child when you were a child. You may all judge each other abominations. You can argue degrees and such but it's all essentially rationalizations "oh at least what I did isn't as bad as X".

If Bran actually becomes aware he is doing something harmful or cruel and continues then you can start calling him abomination etc. Most children only stop such actions when reprimanded by adults and stop due to fear for punishments and only learn why it was wrong to do later in life. Some never actually learn why later and simply behave for fear of punishment, or continue once there are no adults to punish them (see Varymyr or any psychopathic criminal of your choice).

Do you acutally want to argue with me that what Bran does is ok by any means? Seriously?

I want to know, how you would feel if that would happen to you. Someone taking over control over your body, pushing you out violently. You trying to claw to yourself and not being pushed out. The prologue of ADWD gives a good image of how this to a normal human being.

So what you are saying is, that it's to do it with Hodor, because he is mentally not as fit as others? Ok seriously dude that is so f*cking wrong in so many ways. It is not ok to warg any human being, Hodor included....

[Kienn]

So what you are saying is, that it's to do it with Hodor, because he is mentally not as fit as others? Ok seriously dude that is so f*cking wrong in so many ways. It is not ok to warg any human being, Hodor included....

No I'm arguing

a) that Bran doesn't fully appreciate that it is harmful because Hodor reacts similarly to harmless things.

b ) if it is harmful Bran is only a child and can be excused such just as all children are.

c) that it may not be harmful at all because Haggon and Varymyr are not necessarily correct on all things.

I want to know, how you would feel if that would happen to you. Someone taking over control over your body, pushing you out violently. You trying to claw to yourself and not being pushed out. The prologue of ADWD gives a good image of how this to a normal human being.

If warging were a real thing I would read other people's opinions about what it was like before I try it. Maybe

I would let a friend do it to me to see what it was like for myself. Maybe some people call it disgusting and other people think it's awesome and I want to find out for myself.

Would I do it to another person [or animal] without their consent? No. But I'm not a child.

You are taking 1 character's statement as an absolute fact and using that to implicate Bran(a child) when he was never even told.

[Khal Shaggydog]

I don't think Bran warging Hodor is wrong at all, nor will it cause Hodor mental scars; if it is a legitimate mental invasion, the mind has ways to try and shut that whole thing down.

Did no one catch this? HAHAH

Bran cares for Hodor, and not just in a lord/vassal way. The Starks are a family of honor, who actually cared for their smallfolk, at least more than any other noble family we've gotten to know. The first time he warged Hodor, it was as some on the board have suggested - an instinctual move completely necessary for that particular instant. Same thing for when they were struggling to get into the cave, and Bran needed Hodors strength to make it with the rest of the party. He is definitely testing the waters with the cave walking, but we dont know where its going - it certainly isnt motivated by a rapist's mentality of domination and violence. He will either learn from BR that this is not something to do lightly (especially considering Hodor's capacity), or BR may be tempting Bran to try it out on Hodor as a means to a very different end. We dont know yet what BR's motivations are - we just know he has incredible power, we have a good idea of who he is, but we dont know what he is getting at.

I dont see the comparison between Varamyr trying to warg a woman as he died and Bran warging Hodor to wander the cave. Varamyr was planning on taking her body over completely, to live in it, and he is fully aware of what that entails. Bran barely knows what is going on, and he is a 9 year old kid who lost the ability to walk. We are not talking Joffrey cutting open a pregant cat here. Until we see Bran do something cruel to Hodor, or anyone for that matter, we cant just place a sadistic mindset on him for dabbling in completely unknown skills that he has just discovered he has.

[The Bastard of Summer]

Didnt Jamie and Cersei get caught by their mother fondling each other? Did she not tell them it was wrong and then moved their rooms far apart on opposite sides in Casterly rock? Or did I imagine that? So they knew it was wrong when they were caught and told not to do it then. They are adults now and they are still doing it. Cersei and Jamie have no excuse. No one has told Bran that warging Hodor is wrong.