Jaime in the riverlands in ADWD burns me like few things do in the saga

[Sansa_Stark]

He's been trying to end the war since it started. It's called winning. "I would have killed Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood but some fools got in my way."

You mean the war he started by having sex with his sister and trying to pass his bastards off as princes?

For some reason I don't think he cared all that much whether war happened or not..

[butterbumps!]

I have the video bookmarked. I love it. :D

It's either in this video or the longer version where he says he doesn't understand female fans reaction to those type of characters. They romanticize the villains.

The interview that was posted is Martin saying how he's surprised how many female fans like "villains" like Sandor, Theon and Jaime, and specifies that these are very "troubled" men. He then goes on to talk about the San/San shipping fans do.

Given the good/ evil struggle in Jaime's arc, the other SSMs I posted, and the context in which Martin called Jaime, Theon and Sandor "villains" ("deeply troubled") I don't believe he's suggesting that Jaime is a uniformly bad guy.

It seems Martin was using the word "villain" there offhandedly to mean "guys with deep emotional issues and complex struggles between right and wrong."

[Littlefingers In The Air]

It's that and the fact that we know that Jaime isn't waiting for that child to be born. He's storming the castle if Edmure doesn't capitulate. Basically, he's saying that if the improbable happens and Riverrun somehow repulses their attacks for 7 months or so, Edmure gets his kids with a trebuchet.

Jaime is not a man without remorse though. Not like Tywin. He might have been willing to contradict himself to not harm a child. I went back and read the passage earlier where Jaime says only a fool makes empty threats and then I read his threat against Edmure and to me, GRRM probably was trying to highlight that Jaime is becoming self aware that he isn't a complete monster like his dad, even though he may well want to be.

[ARYa_Nym]

The interview that was posted is Martin saying how he's surprised how many female fans like "villains" like Sandor, Theon and Jaime, and specifies that these are very "troubled" men. He then goes on to talk about the San/San shipping fans do.

Given the good/ evil struggle in Jaime's arc, the other SSMs I posted, and the context in which Martin called Jaime, Theon and Sandor "villains" ("deeply troubled") I don't believe he's suggesting that Jaime is a uniformly bad guy.

It seems Martin was using the word "villain" there offhandedly to mean "guys with deep emotional issues and complex struggles between right and wrong."

Well he said deeply disturbed. They're not someone to romanticize. They're not heroes. They're not good.

Yes, they have their motivations and their struggles but so do most or all people in life. That's not to say he's saying they're evil. It's more complex than that but I'm sure it's a reflection of the woobifying that fandom tends to do to these type of characters.

[Father of Hosts]

You mean the war he started by having sex with his sister and trying to pass his bastards off as princes?

For some reason I don't think he cared all that much whether war happened or not..

He may not have cared whether war happened. He most certainly cared about winning it.

Can we not pretend that the war was started by any single reason and that it is a collection of many reasons?

[The Frosted King]

The winners get to decide who are the traitors and who are the ones in the right. The Lannisters won. The Tullys and Starks are traitors.

Remember at the beginning of RR, the North/Riverlands/Vale/Stormlands were traitors. Once they won, they were able to decide that they were in the right to rebel. Same with the Lannisters in the WoFK

No.

Anyone with sense would see that in Robert's Rebellion, they had the right to rebel as their house leaders were being ordered to die for nothing but bearing a name. Not raising arms, or demanding blood, but merely being Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon.

As anyone can also see that the riverlords had no choice but to rebel as their lands and people were being slaughtered and burned and the boy who called himself king did nothing but beat his betrothed and shoot whine about his uncles.

Only the stupidest, densest and unrealistic would call someone a traitor for defending their homes and people via violence.

Of course, i've seen all three plenty of times here, so i'm not surprised by anything anymore.

[Father of Hosts]

Jaime is not a man without remorse though. Not like Tywin. He might have been willing to contradict himself to not harm a child. I went back and read the passage earlier where Jaime says only a fool makes empty threats and then I read his treat against Edmure and to me, GRRM probably was trying to highlight that Jaime is becoming self aware that he isn't a complete monster like his dad, even though he may well want to be.

I completely agree. I guess to say what I meant earlier in a clearer way is that: Under no circumstances would the situation in the Riverlands ever take long enough for Jaime to have to send Edmure his child via trebuchet. He knows this, thus he makes the threat knowing he would never have to carry it out.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jaime is not a man without remorse though. Not like Tywin. He might have been willing to contradict himself to not harm a child. I went back and read the passage earlier where Jaime says only a fool makes empty threats and then I read his treat against Edmure and to me, GRRM probably was trying to highlight that Jaime is becoming self aware that he isn't a complete monster like his dad, even though he may well want to be.

He has some but I would say very little. I also dislike the blame he places on Cersei. He was a grown man and chose to listen to her.

He definitely has more than Tywin though but that would be setting the bar low.

[Sansa_Stark]

Let's see why "redemption arc" Jaime is still a terrible human being:

-Literally never acknowledges that he had a huge role in starting the WOTFK

-Threatened to send a baby through a trebuchet and was most likely serious about it

-Actually gave the order to kill a possible pregnant girl if she tried to run away

-Accused the riverlords of being traitors while being the biggest traitor himself and stealing their property and children

-Regrets not killing Robert despite his vows

-Was ready to destroy house Tully despite his vows

-,Let Tyrion go despite being under the impression that he killed Joffrey, thus making none of Jaime's vows to Tommen legitimate at all

-Is okay with passing F(Arya) off as Arya just so House Lannister can control the North

[Qhorin Fivehands]

Oh come on everybody..Jaime's subjugation of the Riverlands is so well done. His treatment of Edmure was perfectly executed, the distaste he shows for the Freys is fantastic and even how he treats with his fat uncle (Emmon I think). Jaime does an incredible job of finishing off the war.

[Zupoleon]

Well he said deeply disturbed. They're not someone to romanticize. They're not heroes. They're not good.

Yes, they have their motivations and their struggles but so do most or all people in life. That's not to say he's saying they're evil. It's more complex than that but I'm sure it's a reflection of the woobifying that fandom tends to do to these type of characters.

Let's not forget that the story is not finished yet, and by the end Jamie, or Theon, or Sandor (or all three) might be looked at as heroes. Furthermore, IMO there is a greek tragedy element in all 3 of these guys that most definitely be romanticized, especially Jaimes current redemptive arc...

[butterbumps!]

Well he said deeply disturbed. They're not someone to romanticize. They're not heroes. They're not good.

Yes, they have their motivations and their struggles but so do most or all people in life. That's not to say he's saying they're evil. It's more complex than that but I'm sure it's a reflection of the woobifying that fandom tends to do to these type of characters.

Ok, I get the woobifying. I mean, I've seen enough posts on here from fans of his saying that he was exhibiting heroic foresight when pushing Bran, protecting his loved ones and trying to offset the war to know that excessive justification of Jaime's actions do occur in the fandom.

I actually think that one SSM where Martin talks about "explorations of evil" and the limitations of forgiveness is really interesting, because, critically, you can forgive something only if you don't whitewash it or pretend it didn't happen. I think that's the challenge of Jaime's arc, because, yea, he consistently and thoroughly does bad things, not least of which was catalyzing the war unthinkingly. I find myself forgiving him broadly, though, because all those other things I'd listed resonate with me as admirable. I don't merely pity or feel for his struggles the way I do with some other characters, but rather I think Jaime is actually capable of good which goes a bit beyond the "empathy for troubled characters" angle I have with Theon, for example.

[Sansa_Stark]

He may not have cared whether war happened. He most certainly cared about winning it.

Can we not pretend that the war was started by any single reason and that it is a collection of many reasons?

Actually, from Jaime's point of view and knowledge it did start from a single reason.

The war started because he passed his bastards off as princes.

-This led to Jon Arryns murder - Visiting Winterfell - Nearly killing Bran twice- Catelyn capturing Tyrion

-This led to Robert's Baratheon's murder - Both Renly and Stannis rebel, Stannis knows about the incest, Renly wants power

-This led to Ned Stark's mutiny - Which led to his murder and his led to the North and riverlands attacking

And don't blame Littlefinger, because if you read his last chapter in AFFC, Jaime thinks that Littlefinger is this swell, awesome super competent and generous guy who would be a perfect hand of the king.

[redviper9]

Jaime is not a man without remorse though. Not like Tywin. He might have been willing to contradict himself to not harm a child. I went back and read the passage earlier where Jaime says only a fool makes empty threats and then I read his treat against Edmure and to me, GRRM probably was trying to highlight that Jaime is becoming self aware that he isn't a complete monster like his dad, even though he may well want to be.

It's pretty evident in the books that Cersei and Tyrion, not Jaime, are the ones who aspire to be like Tywin. Tyrion thinks to himself during one of his confrontations with Cersei how he had to "find his father's voice," and he almost always compares his handling of situations to how Tywin would have done it. Cersei wants to show the court that she's a "lioness" in much the same way that her father was a "lion."

This is not to suggest that Jaime is completely ignorant of the giant ass his father was. He knows enough of Tywin's MO to realize that Cersei's rampage is the polar opposite of Tywin's methodical approach. He also doesn't really contradict Genna when she notes that Tyrion is the most like Tywin. And he knows that threatening to send Edmure his child via trebuchet is something his father would have done. But he doesn't relish that threat ("please don't make me say it," he thinks to himself before Edmure makes it clear he won't surrender another way), and he basically spit in his father's face and told him that he wanted nothing to do with him or his way of doing things when he rejected Casterly Rock.

Now, I'm not arguing that Jaime is some sort of saint. He has done terrible things -- defenestrating children, admitting that he would have killed Arya if he would have found her, lying to Tyrion about Tysha, the incestuous relationship with Cersei and all its consequences -- but he's also beginning to realize the consequences of his actions and he's trying to come to terms with his past. And he is aware enough now to know that members of his family have also done some pretty terrible things, and that that might not be a path he wants to walk down any longer.

[Fat Mac]

No.

Anyone with sense would see that in Robert's Rebellion, they had the right to rebel as their house leaders were being ordered to die for nothing but bearing a name. Not raising arms, or demanding blood, but merely being Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon.

As anyone can also see that the riverlords had no choice but to rebel as their lands and people were being slaughtered and burned and the boy who called himself king did nothing but beat his betrothed and shoot whine about his uncles.

Only the stupidest, densest and unrealistic would call someone a traitor for defending their homes and people via violence.

Of course, i've seen all three plenty of times here, so i'm not surprised by anything anymore.

It doesn't matter if they were defending their home. They lost. Their reason does not matter in the eyes of the winners, who were the Lannisters.

Also, they weren't even officially traitors until they declared Robb king. And once that happened then yes, they were traitors either way you look at it. If Robb didn't declare himself King, they likely would have all been pardoned if the fighting stopped. Tywin likely would have sought to that.

[Alty732]

There are a few things wrong with the post:

Jaime literaly says in his head Tytos is noble for sticking with the Starks even after they died. He was really nice to tytos he didnt even make him kneel! He was mean to the brackens because they betrayed robb by kneeling, but thought they deserved stuff from the lannisters non the less. so jaime made it fair, he took from the blackwoods ad brackens both to ensure peice. reread the chapter.Jaime was kind not cruel

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Ok, I get the woobifying. I mean, I've seen enough posts on here from fans of his saying that he was exhibiting heroic foresight when pushing Bran, protecting his loved ones and trying to offset the war to know that excessive justification of Jaime's actions do occur in the fandom.

I actually think that one SSM where Martin talks about "explorations of evil" and the limitations of forgiveness is really interesting, because, critically, you can forgive something only if you don't whitewash it or pretend it didn't happen. I think that's the challenge of Jaime's arc, because, yea, he consistently and thoroughly does bad things, not least of which was catalyzing the war unthinkingly. I find myself forgiving him broadly, though, because all those other things I'd listed resonate with me as admirable. I don't merely pity or feel for his struggles the way I do with some other characters, but rather I think Jaime is actually capable of good which goes a bit beyond the "empathy for troubled characters" angle I have with Theon, for example.

I think comparing Jaime to his sister produces an interesting contrast. Arguably their greatest sin was the twincest and the repercussions of that have been plentiful. Cersei deprived Robert of an heir during the whole cherade and Jaime tried to murder a child. I think the biggest difference is how, in the long term, they deal with what they've done.

Cersei goes on to order all of Roberts bastards murdered in addition to torturing Sansa and making her life miserable. Jaime feels genuine remorse for his crime against Bran and arguably his greatest redeeming act, it he can accomplish it, will be to bring Sansa back to Lady Stoneheart. The Sansa effect on their characterization is really intriguing to me.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

GRRM called him a villain last year.

That other thread brought up a good point that he had just told someone not to make empty threats so I think the defense about oh he didn't really mean it with the trebuchet is false. Also, he's an oathbreaker again.

Really he sent Brienne on a fool's errand anyway. Find this girl you've never seen before in a huge country where you have no leads on where she is.

He is a villain. But his arrogance is humorous sometimes, and we feel sorry for him a little because his father was the worst piece of garbage alive. He starts to do good things but remember his thought to himself on returning the Stark girls, not verbatim but "I'll return them just because everyone thinks I won't". He is an asshole and I can't wait until he and Cersei leave the world together as they came into it.

[Father of Hosts]

Actually, from Jaime's point of view and knowledge it did start from a single reason.

The war started because he passed his bastards off as princes.

-This led to Jon Arryns murder - Visiting Winterfell - Nearly killing Bran twice- Catelyn capturing Tyrion

-This led to Robert's Baratheon's murder - Both Renly and Stannis rebel, Stannis knows about the incest, Renly wants power

-This led to Ned Stark's mutiny - Which led to his murder and his led to the North and riverlands attacking

And don't blame Littlefinger, because if you read his last chapter in AFFC, Jaime thinks that Littlefinger is this swell, awesome super competent and generous guy who would be a perfect hand of the king.

How would Jaime know his bastards were the reason Jon Arryn was killed? Lysa poisoned him at LF's command.

How would he know any of the other players would take these exact actions?

ETA: He would have had to been Rhollor, the old gods and the new to figure out that each of these actions was taken specifically because he had bastards with Cersei. Since they weren't.

[Sansa_Stark]

How would Jaime know his bastards were the reason Jon Arryn was killed? Lysa poisoned him at LF's command.

How would he know any of the other players would take these exact actions?

Isn't Jaime under the impression that Jon Arryn was killed because he was snooping around looking for proof of the Lannister bastards? Lysa is irrelevant. I thought Jaime and Cersei believed that Pycelle killed the man, Cersei knows for certain that Jon suspected things, it's in Tyrion's first ACOK chapter.

And for the 2nd question, he didn't have to know in hindsight. But after the started, it was blatantly obvious WHY these guys did what they did and the underlying cause for all of these men's actions:

Stannis-Rebelled because he believed Joff was a bastard

Jon Arryn- Went on an investigation because he believed Joff was a bastard and looked for proof

Ned - Mutinied and was executed BECAUSE HE KNEW Joff was a bastard

Renly- Rebelled because he realized Robert was murdered, which happened because Cersei off him because Robert would find out Joff was a bastard

So clearly, from Jaime's POV, he should know why all these men rebelled and did not acknowledge his role in starting the war.

The war may have started for multiple reasons, but the twincest was the underlying cause.

It's not very hard