Was Ned unintelligent?

[Spinebreaker]

Maybe a little naïve. It's natural to assume other peoples own actions based upon yourself. So most of Ned's 'wrong' decisions are understandable 'cause he's coming from a situation where he will assign a level of assumed morality to people; and those people end up being like Varys, Littlefinger and Cersei...

[Valandui]

I think he possessed a certain kind of intelligence....one of a capable warrior, general and leader of the North. But the intelligence it would require to deftly handle the intricate political machinations of King's Landing? Hell no.

His honor was his greatest and worst attribute. This sort of unbending style of leadership might have worked among the "salt of the earth" Northmen but south of the Neck, that doesn't fly.

Obviously his biggest mistake was tipping off Cersei about his plans.

His second mistake was bringing his daughters to King's Landing from the get go. He should have tested the waters first before allowing Sansa and Arya to go. I can almost see why he brought Sansa given that she was betrothed to Joffrey, but I don't understand why Arya had to be there.

His third big mistake was not listening to Renly and taking Cersei's children hostage when he had the chance. There was no mention of actually harming the children, only holding them as bargaining chips which he DID ALREADY WITH THEON. So why it was such a thing to scoff at now is unfathomable to me.

Another big mistake was, surprisingly, not listening to LF. LF actually gave him some pretty sound advice about approaching people like Yohn Royce for help that he knew full well Ned wouldn't follow.

[mrunderhill]

Maybe a little naïve. It's natural to assume other peoples own actions based upon yourself. So most of Ned's 'wrong' decisions are understandable 'cause he's coming from a situation where he will assign a level of assumed morality to people; and those people end up being like Varys, Littlefinger and Cersei...

That's the problem though. He should "know" the Lannisters killed Jon Arry, attempted to kill Bran and were trying to kill Robert. Ned is from the North, not this magical perfect land. The Northern Lords are hardly the most moral themselves. Manderly's chopping up Frey's and feeding them to their relatives, Umbar's practicing rape, Boltons etc

[Spinebreaker]

He knows in theory what those people are like no doubt. Imagine a person that has never lied. Never have and never will. Not even a small one. Now in a conversation that person, even if told a fairly obvious lie, won't go there mentally straight away... It's not stupidity, it's sheer inability to process information in the same way as other people... I myself literally cannot comprehend people watching competitive sport... Taking part, yes, Watching a friend/family member, yes. Sitting watching people you don't know playing a sport? Absolutely baffling.

[TalalOfDorne]

I would describe Ned as a politically naive man who has a soft spot for children and a hard foundation of honor.

[MagnusPrime]

Similar to Cersei, but only in this small part, I don't think Ned had a low IQ; he just makes bad decisions. He was just too proud, naive and underestimated all his enemies. Ned made many mistakes, which were nothing to do with honour. Trusting LF, following Jon Arryn's leads in the open, not telling Robert the truth, not working alongside Renly. Not sending out ravens before he tried to arrest Joffrey and not sending his daughters away before he acted.

Stick Baelor Breakspear in there and he would be just as honourable, but come out on top.

Ned was not a proud man. He was a man doing his duty and nor was he naive. He never trusted Baelish even when Catelyn vouched for him Ned still had his doubts about the man and the thing with the Gold Cloaks was a last minute gamble. In all things he did he tried his best to do but without an installed power base to work with or some super magical assassin ninjas there was no way in hell Ned was going to be able to do what he needed to do and be completely clandestine about it. Ned had been far removed from the dealings of Kingslanding and the greater kingdom for years and the fault for that goes both ways. I will give you not going along with Renly on atleast trying to seize the children.

But pray tell how was he to send out ravens? all messages go through Pycelle who was quite clearly in Lannister's corner. and he was trying to get his daughters out but a little thing of Robert being gored by a boar sped up the time table tremendously. you could argue that he should have sent them away as soon as he saw Robert dying......shit, NVM.

comparing Ned To Baelor Breakspear is like comparing apples to oranges.

[fiekie]

That's a bit of a loaded question. Who defines "intelligence" anyway?

I don't think Ned had a low IQ... he managed Wf pretty well and all. His big weakness which led to his downfall was his pathetic grasp of politics and inability to read and understand other people. He misread Cercei, and Joffrey, and Cercei's ability to control Joffrey. Oops. If that means he's unintelligent then all (smart) people with bad social skills would be "unintelligent" as well.

[mrunderhill]

Ned was not a proud man. He was a man doing his duty and nor was he naive. He never trusted Baelish even when Catelyn vouched for him Ned still had his doubts about the man and the thing with the Gold Cloaks was a last minute gamble. In all things he did he tried his best to do but without an installed power base to work with or some super magical assassin ninjas there was no way in hell Ned was going to be able to do what he needed to do and be completely clandestine about it. Ned had been far removed from the dealings of Kingslanding and the greater kingdom for years and the fault for that goes both ways. I will give you not going along with Renly on atleast trying to seize the children.

He was proud in the sense he thought he knew everything and did not listen to others. He was too long in the North where he was the top dog, where as in King's Landing he was amongst equals.

Why make a last minute gamble with the gold cloaks? These are men you know work for the highest bidder. Even if Ned thought LF was loyal, what happens if Cersei bids higher? He should have left the city as soon as possible. I agree with the amount of spies Varys has in the city, he is unlikely to be able to carry out the investigation in secret, but it is still worth trying that rather than doing it openly. Jon Arryn was equally as powerful as Ned and died, because of his investigation. As for Pycelle, I am not sure if Ned realised just how much of a Lannister man he was. I agree this would have probably backfired, but I don't think Ned held back, because he thought Pycelle was crooked, he just assumed his plan was going to work. If Ned was not going to listen to Renly he should have just fled the city.

comparing Ned To Baelor Breakspear is like comparing apples to oranges.

My point is that Baelor and Ned are both honourable men, but Baelor knew how to bend the rules and his honour to ensure justice. Can you see Ned charing at the Kingsguard and knocking them down in a trial of 7? No I see him honourably going to fight against someone else and allowing the Kingsguard to decimate the honest men fighting for justice.

[Winterz]

Ned was bound by his sense of honor, but he was quite unintelligent when it came to playing the game. And it never ceases to amaze me that he didn't keep his daughters heavily guarded after his men were killed and before he confronted Cersei. Regardless, I still love the guy.

Well when it comes to playing the game, all northerners are unintelligent, they just worry about other things in the North. Well, there's Roose but he's a scumbag.

[RedBean]

He was out of his depth in King's Landing. He was used to dealing with people in a straightforward manner, and he was the Lord of the North, so no one actually tried to oppose him there. But in King's Landing, he was dealing with an entire council of people who had their own agenda, and were much more adept at pursuing their ambitions. I don't think he's unintelligent in general. I just think he was an amateur - very naive and trusting - and he was playing the Game of Thrones, where you either win or you die.

[Frey Pentos]

I don't think he was, personally; I just think he believed in his morals too much.

He definitely lacked political intelligence. Tend to agree that his obsession with his honour clouded his judgement and led him to make some very dumb decisions.

[Dryhtscipe]

People go on and on and on about Ned's morals, but I'm afraid his morals aren't all that.

When he speaks with Cersei regarding her children, he thinks about what he'd do to protect his own, and decides that he isn't at all certain he wouldn't go to any lengths to protect his family. What's more, we know this is true: without any evidence whatsoever, he allows his wife to bugger off and kidnap the scion of a fellow great house, potentially spiraling the entire kingdom into chaos. Not because of ethics or morals, but because his kin was threatened.

He doesn't think of ethics or morals or the people of the kingdom when he decides to back Stannis, either - quite the opposite! He knows Stannis will be a crap king, and he thinks a load of old tosh about rightful rulership and all that cobblers... but the truth is that he just doesn't want a Lannister on the throne.

In other words: he's no different to Tywin Lannister. The only difference is in his personal empathy with his children. He's more connected with them emotionally. This alone makes readers feel as if he is more moral, more empathetic, more "nice".

It's nonsense.

The only really strong ethical decision Ned made was not to try to claim the Iron Throne - I suspect because he knew he would have been nothing but a tyrant. He certainly was as Hand - sending men off to kill a man on the basis of "he was really tall, milord!" is no justice at all.

[David Selig]

People go on and on and on about Ned's morals, but I'm afraid his morals aren't all that.

When he speaks with Cersei regarding her children, he thinks about what he'd do to protect his own, and decides that he isn't at all certain he wouldn't go to any lengths to protect his family.

In other words: he's no different to Tywin Lannister. The only difference is in his personal empathy with his children. He's more connected with them emotionally. This alone makes readers feel as if he is more moral, more empathetic, more "nice".

It's nonsense.

The only really strong ethical decision Ned made was not to try to claim the Iron Throne - I suspect because he knew he would have been nothing but a tyrant.

Ned's actions proved that he won't go to any lengths to protect his family. Otherwise he'd have agreed with the plan to kill Dany, would've approved the murder of the Targ kids by Tywin's dogs and wouldn't have given Cersei and her kids chance to flee .

[Winterz]

Ned's actions proved that he won't go to any lengths to protect his family. Otherwise he'd have agreed with the plan to kill Dany, would've approved the murder of the Targ kids by Tywin's dogs and wouldn't have given Cersei and her kids chance to flee .

He sacrificed himself along with his precious honor to save his children. Ned's just not the type of the "BIG PICTURE" but I guess that's just how honorable people work.

Davos also saved Edric knowing that perhaps his sacrifice would indeed save humanity from destruction, which would also mean his children.

I still find them to go to great lengths to save their children, just not in the ruthless and cruel type of way. I don't doubt that any of these men would give their lives for their children without flinching once.

But if you go by "any lengths to protect said family", not even Cersei will fill in nor will anyone.

In fact, killing innocent people that may one day cause or indirectly provoke harm to your children seems like the easiest and more cowardly way.

[Pacala]

why most of the starks are dead ?

[Gala]

To be fair, he didn't go to King's Landing to "play the game", he went because Robert hired him as the CEO of the realm. There's not enough information if he was up to that job, but most likely, he got it because of "nepotism" (as Eddar was "closer" to Robert than his own brothers). We do know that Casterly Rock and Highgarden were prosperous kingdoms, but can't tell how good or bad Ned was in his, Benjen mentions that The Night Watch was a shadow of its former self, so we can assume that it went to the toilet during Ned/Robert's administrarion, and it seems Eddard didn't care much about it, thinking that at some point he would just call his armies and go do war beyond the wall instead of having it well managed -which would be the responsability of all the kingdoms, but since he had connections in high places (Robert and Arryn), should had not been a problem for him to get the funds, he just didn't seem to care.

As far as the Targs on the other side of the narrow sea goes, he had the same attitude of "well got to war when(if) it happens", so, it seems Ned was more of Brawn over Brains kinda dude... :p

Well, I wouldn't say that he was closer to Robert than to his own brothers, that is too much, he definitely loved his siblings very very much, and, for example, Benjen seems to know truth about Jon (whatever it is), while Robert don't, I don't know the reason. I would say that he is close to Robert as if they were brothers, but not that Robert was closer then his brothers.

As for "shadow": as I remember, Mormont or somebody else said about Stark help to the Wall very fondly, with gratitude. The king and the realm probably didn't care much about the Wall, not the Starks. Additionally, when he became the Hand he discovered that the crown was in deep debt to Lannisters and to the Iron Bank, how it was his doing I do not understand.

As for the funds: the NW is in the North, but it does has its own management and I never heard of that management asking Starks anything, they always ask the crown, but Starks always helped since old ages. If I recall everything right, Winterfell sent food and goods on a regular basis to the Wall, so the NW called them the good friends of the NW, not mentioning that the North is half of the realm in size and winters are the most severe there and it was coming at that point already. The realm is still responsible for funding the Wall, and considering Robert's lifestyle and the debts of the crown, I find it very understandable why the Wall was not in good "shape".

As for the war with savages/dothraki: it would be idiotic to kill some girl on the other side of the world just because there is some faint possibility that dothraki, who despise, afraid of the sea and I guess can't even swim properly, would cross it. And if it happens, there is an incredibly easy way to beat them - at the sea, the only trick is not to let them to land. Only an idiot would meet dothraki in the open field, what part of defeating them at the sea was stupid then?

As for the ruling the North: it can be seen by the way his bannermen are loyal to the Starks still, most of them, even Alys Karstark, Umbers are in strange position, but still half of them want revenge for Starks. I mean none of the lords in Westeros, dead or alive, got that kind of love and loyalty. Even smallfolk despise current situation and miss the Starks. I do not know how Ned ruled the North, but everything seems eloquent enough.

I love Ned and he was not stupid. As many before me have already said: he is an honorable man, naive and honest, good for the North (where, according to the Dunk and Egg stories, you get what you deserve), but not for cunning players at the King's Landing. I presume he didn't really think that he was playing the game of thrones. Everyone there played him the way they wanted, but it doesn't mean he was stupid, just too good for that.

[Sullen]

He's not smart, but calling him stupid is too strong of a word.

He was of average intellect and very naive, and entered a game where only the most clever succeed.

[Gala]

He sacrificed himself along with his precious honor to save his children. Ned's just not the type of the "BIG PICTURE" but I guess that's just how honorable people work.

Davos also saved Edric knowing that perhaps his sacrifice would indeed save humanity from destruction, which would also mean his children.

I still find them to go to great lengths to save their children, just not in the ruthless and cruel type of way. I don't doubt that any of these men would give their lives for their children without flinching once.

But if you go by "any lengths to protect said family", not even Cersei will fill in nor will anyone.

In fact, killing innocent people that may one day cause or indirectly provoke harm to your children seems like the easiest and more cowardly way.

Thank you for your post. That is exactly what I think. That's what are good people made of, like Ned and Davos.

[Maxpey]

I think Ned's biggest failure was his inability to consider the possibility that Cersei was just as cunning as her father when he confronted her about the twincest.

I doubt he would have dealt with Tywin Lannister by showing him mercy and expecting Tywin to be grateful.

Ned wasn't a misogynist, but he apparently failed to believe that a woman could be just as cunning as a man.

[The Frosted King]

He was smart on paper, but the final moves he made were stupid in retrospect.

He shouldn't have trusted LF to gain the cloaks, but went himself and put down the gold himself.

Also, the biggest imo was the refusal to take the children with Renly's help.

Risking everything just so some children who aren't owed anything can get a good nights rest?

Snatch the children Ned, and thus have a strong position when you go before the council.

You know the woman who made them wouldn't hesitate to butcher yours, so take hers and let the shadow of the sword over their necks color her decisions.

The death of Robert was a slim hail mary type of bullshit, as imagine what the result is if they find no game?

He comes back, learns truth and Lannisters lose big.

Ned made two bad decisions, but while one was only bad in hindsight, the other was only the truly stupid move he made.