GRRM statement about the White Walkers and use of ice

[Eyron]

I'm not aware, or do not remember, any previous discussions. Have you changed your name, or have I forgotton? (It was not my intention to restart old conversations here.)

If they were not enemies, why would the CotF need protection from First Men? The Wall was built long before the Andals arrived.

It makes military sense. When the Romans built Hadrian's Wall (which the aSoIaF Wall is based on), they didn't hide behind it. It wasn't the front line; it was the backstop for the forward defense. (Edward Luttwak's The Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire is a wonderful explanation of Roman defense works and how they were used.)

When you were discussing in the heresy threads, I was probably called Eira, but I've had this name for a while. Sorry I didn't think about the name change.

About the CotF and the FM, my theory is that at some point the Children went north and began avoiding the First Men, since the Last Hero had such trouble finding them at the time of the Long Night, before the Wall was built. Maybe terms had changed since the pact and First men no longer saw the necessity of leaving all the forests to the Children. The First men built castles surrounding the weirwoods, making them into godswoods. This could be an act of treason for what we know. In any case, things were not peachy, and men started dominating the lands. Men multiply (much faster than the Children) and need more resources, this is the way it's always been. In the song of The Last Giant, it's implied that men drove them away, and that there were some kind of war against them. Leaf says the giants were the Childrens' "brother and bane" so I think this was an event that happened which also implicated the Children. Not sure how, but perhaps the giants war alienated men from other old races too.

It's quite possible to me that the First men were not all of one mind, and that some stayed loyal to the pact and others didn't. The people in the most northern lands (now beyond the wall) still seem to live more like the original First men for example. It's also possible that what the Last Hero did was to reinstate the order of the pact, by securing the lands beyond the Wall for the Children, and this is what got him the help men needed to survive the long night, and push back the White Walkers. There doesn't need to be animosity between the First men and the Children for this, but indifference is more likely to me. The Children could just have sat in their caves, waiting for the end of the war, not particularily caring who wins. Or they did like this last time, send dreams to one of the First men (Bran), for him to come to them, to help them set the balance right.

Hm, well if the Wall is a defence to fall back at, it makes sense that the men and castles were on the south side if the Wall defends from the south? If I understand you correctly.

I was going to add this to the last post but I'll put it here:

ETA: One thing I try to bear in mind is that to the weirwoods there is no timeline, as explained to Bran. The beginning and the present is happening at the same time, and I assume the future? What the Children do may seem out of place, but we don't know what game they play. I assume they are all about balance, the forces of magic needs a balance, and they are it. But we don't know what will bring balance, what it will take. Therefore I don't automatically assume that it has to be the ultimate defeat of the White Walkers. On a world scale of things, Fire magic is on the rise, and I don't think that is a good thing, especially in the eyes of the Children.

Another thing, at the time of the first long night, men didn't need the Wall to stop the White Walkers. The Wall was built after the long night so it was for future events.

Also, if there is magic in the Wall that prevents White Walkers, which I assume that it does, and if this is it's only purpose, why does it need manned defence? Is it that the wights can pass? So far we've seen them pass by being carried through, 'unconcious'. Is that likely to happen a lot? Can the wights actually climb the Wall, in a conscious state? We'll see later I suppose.

At the time the Wall was built, men didn't sail. They didn't cross the narrow sea and they would have a hard time going around the Wall. But, if it's for the wildlings, I just don't know what to think. I mean when the Wall began to rise, what prevented them from running south before it was all up?

Sorry for the ramblings...

[Ser Wun Wun]

Several of you have said that GRRM has explicitly stated that the NW built the Wall over a period of centuries. If that is true, then it would certainly kill the 'WW built the Wall' theory dead in it's tracks.

Can any of you provide a link to the interview/SSM in which he says this? I have read/listened to most of them (I'm a tad obsessed...) and I cannot remember GRRM confirming such a thing in any interview/SSM. Perhaps I just glossed over it.

This is the only SSM I can find where GRRM discusses the building of the Wall:

I am having discussions about the Wall. Some think that it is an impossibility for a structure of that size to remain standing if it is made from ice alone. Personally I think that the wall started of a lot smaller and slowly grew larger over the centuries as the black brothers trampled layer after layer of blue metal or small stones across the top. If that is the case then the wall is probably a mixture of crushed rocks and ice, which in my opinion would be a VERY sturdy construction, as demonstrated by Jon when he filled the barrels with water and used them to crush the battering ram.

Well, the Wall has undoubtedly "eaten" a lot of crushed stone over the centuries and millenia, especially around the castles where the black brothers regularly gravelled the walkways. But there's a lot more ice than there is stone.

Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height.

If time is permiting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels.

The fan who asks the question assumes that the NW built the Wall, but GRRM's response doesn't confirm or deny that. He just says the Wall was smaller initially and was added to over time. He doesn't say by who.

Didn't Bran the builder build the Wall?

That's what legend says, but as you can see from the above SSM, GRRM intimates that we shouldn't put much stock in the legends (especially when they are that old). As he says, no one knows if Bran the Builder ever really lived.

[JonNonRegis]

The fan who asks the question assumes that the NW built the Wall, but GRRM's response doesn't confirm or deny that. He just says the Wall was smaller initially and was added to over time. He doesn't say by who.

Technically true.

However, let's assume it was built by non-humans. The sequence would have been this:

1. First Men invade Westeros.

2. Non-humans (CotF or Others, take your pick) say to themselves "What ho, this is no good." Arm of Dorne is shattered. Conflict.

3. Non-humans gradually realize they are fighting a losing battle as First Men move north.

4. Hammer of waters at the Neck. This fails to stop the First Men too. They enter what is now called the North.

5. Non-humans say to themselves "Well, damn, that didn't work. Time to build a Wall."

6. GRRM's statement -- thousands of years were needed to build the Wall -- now begins to apply.

7. Thousands of years later, the Wall is complete.

8. The First Men finally show up at the Wall (what in the world took them so long?) and find the Wall there.

9. The Wall designed to stop the First Men totally fails to stop them. The non-humans have all abandoned it for unknown reasons. The First Men enter what is now known as Beyond the Wall and become the Thenns, etc.

10. No memory of the time when First Men encountered the Wall survives to the present day. That concept is replaced by completely different ideas about the First Men building the Wall, as Jeor Mormont explicitly states in GoT.

It seems much more plausible the Wall was built by humans in more or less the expected way... gradually by the Watch as a defense against a return of the Others... though the anti-magic capabilities would have been baked in from the start and quite possibly the CotF had a hand in that. The CotF almost certainly were the ones who warded their cave, so we know they have the capability.

[Spinebreaker]

How cryptic is GRRM in these discussions? How carefully is he wording his answers? "No one knows if Bran the Builder ever really lived." seems a weird sentence to me. "No one knows if Bran the Builder ever existed." is the way a majority of people would say it. "No one knows if Bran the Builder ever REALLY LIVED.", He was real but not 'alive'... That thought has made me remember Brandon Ice-Eyes... I realise there's a 97% chance every word I've written is pure, unadulterated crackpot juice.

[JonathanTheBold]

the white walkers built the wall

To keep the savage humans from raiding their lands and raising their dead

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Ideas like this are at the heart of the early Heresy threads, and they are as full of holes as Myrish lace. The idea that the Wall was built to protect the North from the South is incompatible with the fact that the forces defending the Wall have always been recruited from the areas south of it. It would be analogous to the French building the Maginot Line to protect France from Germany, then requiring the Germans to man it. (Don't worry- we'll make them swear an oath!) Not to mention the fact that the Wall doesn't protect the North from the South. Men can move north at will.

We're also told that the First Men and the CotF worked together to repel the Andal invasion at the Neck. All the folks who want to be "contrarian" and portray the CotF as enemies of the FM conveniently forget that.

The Nightfort was indeed the first castle, but the idea that there were no gates but the Black Gate never made sense. The Black Gate is down a well. You could never take a patrol of horsemen through it. Being able to patrol the lands north of the Wall is vital to its defense. The Black Gate is simply a secret postern gate. And it's not necessary to defend it from men who want to go north. Only men of the Watch can open it.

Thank you! I really mean it...

To assume, the Others are actually the good guys, trying to keep the evil humans from killing is, is so far fetched. I couldn't see, even with the help of the Hubble telescope, where you got the idea...

The images connected with the Others are:

-extreme cold

-no sunlight

-ice

All of those symbols refer to non-living things. It would make no sense at all and be the worst fantasy writing in the history of the human race, if the Others turn out to be the good guys in the end...

[DaveSnow House Stark]

I really don't buy the theory that the whites built the wall. Access is from the South, castles on the south, barricades on the top of the wall protect your northern side. Also, the whole, humans expanding north has made them mad??? Really? There are less humans near the wall than EVER before! The NW is down to small numbers and there are no people in the Gift area.

I do like the thought of the magic and ice thing, but can't see this one.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Technically true.

However, let's assume it was built by non-humans. The sequence would have been this:

1. First Men invade Westeros.

2. Non-humans (CotF or Others, take your pick) say to themselves "What ho, this is no good." Arm of Dorne is shattered. Conflict.

3. Non-humans gradually realize they are fighting a losing battle as First Men move north.

4. Hammer of waters at the Neck. This fails to stop the First Men too. They enter what is now called the North.

5. Non-humans say to themselves "Well, damn, that didn't work. Time to build a Wall."

6. GRRM's statement -- thousands of years were needed to build the Wall -- now begins to apply.

7. Thousands of years later, the Wall is complete.

8. The First Men finally show up at the Wall (what in the world took them so long?) and find the Wall there.

9. The Wall designed to stop the First Men totally fails to stop them. The non-humans have all abandoned it for unknown reasons. The First Men enter what is now known as Beyond the Wall and become the Thenns, etc.

10. No memory of the time when First Men encountered the Wall survives to the present day. That concept is replaced by completely different ideas about the First Men building the Wall, as Jeor Mormont explicitly states in GoT.

Is the bold necessarily the #6 event in that sequence though? How do we know, say, that the Wall wasn't already built/in the process of being constructed well before the First Men invaded Westeros? Or, if that is too crackpot, how do we know the WW didn't start building it immediately after the First Men landed? The First Men and COTF were at war for roughly 2000 years before they established their peace according to the info we have.

I know the timelines are fuzzy (and the posters in the heresy threads believe the established dates are completely wrong), but going off what we have...

The First Men invaded 12,000 years ago.

They made peace with the COTF 10,000 years ago (who had been driven North, so presumably men weren't in control of that region at the time).....that's a 2000 year period during which the WW could have constructed the Wall.

Furthermore, the Long Night during which the WW invaded did not until occur until 8000 years ago --- that is when the First Men are supposed to have "built the Wall"

So in total, there is a 4000 year period in which it is possible the WW were building/were in control of the Wall. Why don't the legends say the First men found the Wall instead of built it (your #10)? I don't know. The victors write history, perhaps? Did Bran the Builder even exist? It's all so fuzzy, with no written accounts, that it is pretty much impossible to know.

9. The Wall designed to stop the First Men totally fails to stop them. The non-humans have all abandoned it for unknown reasons. The First Men enter what is now known as Beyond the Wall and become the Thenns, etc.

It seems much more plausible the Wall was built by humans in more or less the expected way... gradually by the Watch as a defense against a return of the Others... though the anti-magic capabilities would have been baked in from the start and quite possibly the CotF had a hand in that. The CotF almost certainly were the ones who warded their cave, so we know they have the capability.

Was the Wall "abandoned" though? We know there was a war, and the WW lost. They were driven back. So I don't find the idea that after said war the First Men could have taken control of the Wall and began establishing their own safeguards/defenses within it implausible, personally. That they could have essentially co-opted it and made it their own.

And I agree, the COTF likely had a hand in establishing the magical safeguards present within the Wall (they certainly know how to ward off wights from entering certain places). But why assume such safeguards were always present within the Wall? Could they not have been created after the First Men won the war of the Long Night?

[Jslay427]

I got a nerd boner after reading GRRMs statement. WW swords are made from Ice and Dragonglass/Vaylrian swords are made of fire. Pretty cool

[Ser Wun Wun]

To assume, the Others are actually the good guys, trying to keep the evil humans from killing is, is so far fetched. I couldn't see, even with the help of the Hubble telescope, where you got the idea...

The images connected with the Others are:

-extreme cold

-no sunlight

-ice

All of those symbols refer to non-living things. It would make no sense at all and be the worst fantasy writing in the history of the human race, if the Others turn out to be the good guys in the end...

I don't think "good guys" is the right term. Let's just say, they are not purely evil despite all those (commonly seen as evil) symbols associated with them. In most stories, giants and wargs are evil too, but not in this one, right? GRRM commonly subverts such things.

Having read some of GRRM's statements criticizing other works of fantasy, namely that they mostly pit a hero against a purely evil enemy (black vs. white), I can't help but think he has some sort of twist in store regarding the WW. At the moment they simply appear to be monsters attacking humans for no reason, possibly with the goal of world domination ( Mel, Jon and Stannis with their "Long Night is coming again" stuff certainly believe that). But I believe they are intelligent creatures with their own language, culture and reasons for what they are doing.

Given his criticisms of other works of fantasy, if the WW turn out to be just the evil, hell spawns attacking for no reason they appear to be, then that would make GRRM one hell of a hypocrite. But I don't think he is one, and that is why I think there is more to this situation than maybe the human characters within the Wildlings and NW can perceive. Based on Bran's vision of 'impaled dreamers in the North', it's possible that even Bloodraven doesn't fully understand the WW and is misinformed because he can't see into their society.

One aspect of prophecies in this series is that they are often self-fulfilling. Mel saw Stannis being defeated by "Renly" at KL, and in her efforts to avoid that outcome she actually made the thing happen!

So I think it is possible that the humans, by preparing for the Long Night (by say, leading an expedition North of the Wall to "end the threat", which I def think will happen) might actually be bringing it about.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Is the bold necessarily the #6 event in that sequence though? How do we know, say, that the Wall wasn't already built/in the process of being constructed well before the First Men invaded Westeros? Or, if that is too crackpot, how do we know the WW didn't start building it immediately after the First Men landed? The First Men and COTF were at war for roughly 2000 years before they established their peace according to the info we have.

I know the timelines are fuzzy (and the posters in the heresy threads believe the established dates are completely wrong), but going off what we have...

The First Men invaded 12,000 years ago.

They made peace with the COTF 10,000 years ago (who had been driven North, so presumably men weren't in control of that region at the time).....that's a 2000 year period during which the WW could have constructed the Wall.

Furthermore, the Long Night during which the WW invaded did not until occur until 8000 years ago --- that is when the First Men are supposed to have "built the Wall"

So in total, there is a 4000 year period in which it is possible the WW were building/were in control of the Wall. Why don't the legends say the First men found the Wall instead of built it (your #10)? I don't know. The victors write history, perhaps? Did Bran the Builder even exist? It's all so fuzzy, with no written accounts, that it is pretty much impossible to know.

Was the Wall "abandoned" though? We know there was a war, and the WW lost. They were driven back. So I don't find the idea that after said war the First Men could have taken control of the Wall and began establishing their own safeguards/defenses within it implausible, personally. That they could have essentially co-opted it and made it their own.

And I agree, the COTF likely had a hand in establishing the magical safeguards present within the Wall (they certainly know how to ward off wights from entering certain places). But why assume such safeguards were always present within the Wall? Could they not have been created after the First Men won the war of the Long Night?

Seriously.... heresy is so beyond my grasp....

Why build a 700 feet high and 100 leagues long wall, if you plan to attack the FM anyways? Why not stay safely behind the wall?

Every single argumentation i read about heresy can be disproved with the simplest logic any 10 year should be able to master...

[Ser Wun Wun]

Seriously.... heresy is so beyond my grasp....

Why build a 700 feet high and 100 leagues long wall, if you plan to attack the FM anyways? Why not stay safely behind the wall?

Every single argumentation i read about heresy can be disproved with the simplest logic any 10 year should be able to master...

I'm actually not a heresy poster (those threads move way too fast for me...they are on like thread # 50 or so at this point. Edit: Just checked, make that #58. See what I mean about them moving too fast for me.)

What makes you think they always planned to attack the FM though? Is it not possible (kind of like my above post intimates regarding the current situation) that the FM could have provoked the first war as well? Encroaching on their territory? Hell, even attacking first? We don't know what started the first Long Night, only that it happened.

Furthermore, the Chinese built the Great Wall to keep people out, but that didn't stop them from occasionally venturing forth to conquer their neighbors did it? Just because a people build a Wall doesn't mean they have resolved to stay hidden behind it forever...the First Men might not have had much of a presence in the North when WW started building it (assuming they did build it), but over time men settled all over the North. That might have been what prompted the WW to attack them (assuming you can't but into the idea that the FM might have actually provoked/started it, which I kinda like).

[MDT]

What we definitly know is that humans finished the Wall as we see it in the books.

If the WW had anything to do with it, it's only possible that they build the foundation.

To the arguments brought up against this I only say that they also proove that Minas Morgul could not have been build by Gondor. I mean why would they have build something that now only blocks their access to Mordor ...

That said, while I find it kind of strange that you would build a wall of ice against the WW, which seem to have the mastery over ice, I think if intentional its a red herring at best.

The real power of the Wall lies within its enchantments not its materials. Whoever enchanted it, he could also have enchanted stone or pudding, but they didn't have enough stone and prefered to eat the pudding.

But only WoW can finally proove that the wall is no trap set up by the WW's.

[Eyron]

6. GRRM's statement -- thousands of years were needed to build the Wall -- now begins to apply.

7. Thousands of years later, the Wall is complete.

8. The First Men finally show up at the Wall (what in the world took them so long?) and find the Wall there.

Just a nitpick, it took hundreds of years to complete. See the SSM.

The theory I pose does not say that there were no men in the north (now north of the Wall). All men are not the same, so why would the CotF (if that is the case) make war on all men? I don't see how this disputes the CotF building the Wall, especially with the help of the First men, and possibly Giants if some stories are true.

This is relevant I think: Storms End was built with the help of a boy who grew up to be Bran the Builder according to some stories. Other stories says it was built with the help of the CotF. So was it a boy, or a grown CotF that looked like a boy? Was this before or after the Wall was built? The magic wards in the walls of Storms End, are they magic of the CotF? It seems likely, considering the boy Bran did probably not make up magic spells by himself.

Five more castles he built, each larger and stronger than the last, only to see them smashed asunder when the gale winds came howling up Shipbreaker Bay, driving great walls of water before them. His lords pleaded with him to build inland; his priests told him he must placate the gods by giving Elenei back to the sea; even his smallfolk begged him to relent. Durran would have none of it. A seventh castle he raised, most massive of all. Some said the children of the forest helped him build it, shaping the stones with magic; others claimed that a small boy told him what he must do, a boy who would grow to be Bran the Builder. No matter how the tale was told, the end was the same. Though the angry gods threw storm after storm against it, the seventh castle stood defiant, and Durran Godsgrief and fair Elenei dwelt there together until the end of their days.

(From ACoK, chapter 31, Catelyn)

Bran the Builder must have lived a considerably long time, since he built Storms End, the Wall, and Winterfell, if that is true (which are also some time apart according to the history). Considering how long it takes to build castles, not to mention the Wall. Or perhaps he wasn't a boy at all, and enjoyed the long life of the CotF. Just throwing it out here ;)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

When you were discussing in the heresy threads, I was probably called Eira, but I've had this name for a while. Sorry I didn't think about the name change.

Ah. That explains it.

Still, I think my reasoning is sound. A Wall manned from the south is intended to guard the south from the north. The oldest form of the Night's Watch oath we are aware of is probably the passphrase at the Black Gate. It ends, "I am the shield that guards the realms of men." Nothing about guarding CotF, giants, direwolves, etc. Any claim to the contrary needs real evidence to outweigh this.

About the CotF and the FM, ... but perhaps the giants war alienated men from other old races too.

The Pact already separated the CotF and the FM by land type. The only thing that really provoked the CotF to fight was when the FM started cutting down weirwoods. FM creating godswoods around weirwood heart trees would seem to be part of the FM accepting the CotF religion, something the CotF would support.

Another thing, at the time of the first long night, men didn't need the Wall to stop the White Walkers. The Wall was built after the long night so it was for future events.

Apparently the final battle was quite decisive, and bought the FM enough time to get started building the Wall. For the magic to work, you would probably only need a coast-to-coast wall one brick high. Just a line. In the end, a defensive fortification is simply a manpower saver. You could still hold the line without the Wall, but you might need 20 or 30 times as many men. It's economical to spend the money/effort just once on the structure.

Also, if there is magic in the Wall that prevents White Walkers, which I assume that it does, and if this is it's only purpose, why does it need manned defence?

That's the $64 question.

At the time the Wall was built, men didn't sail. They didn't cross the narrow sea and they would have a hard time going around the Wall. But, if it's for the wildlings, I just don't know what to think. I mean when the Wall began to rise, what prevented them from running south before it was all up?

They could paddle rafts or canoes around Eastwatch. But as long as there were real gates in the Wall, there would be no need to. The cultures north and south of the Wall hadn't become separated yet. The "Wildings" were still friends with those south of the Wall. They weren't Wildings yet. Or everyone was. Joramun worked with the Stark in Winterfell to oust the Nights King. The rift undoubtedly came later, as the many small kingdomlettes south of the Wall coalesced into the Seven Kingdoms. That's the movement the Wildings resisted.

When you build a defensive line, you don't make sure all your friends are behind it. You make sure none of your enemies are behind it.

(The whole idea in the Heresy thread of the Black Gate being the only original way through the Wall literally started with someone posting, "What if the BG was originally the only way through the Wall?" Lots of people liked the sound of that, and BOOM! it became Heresy Canon. Without a single iota of evidence.)

[Kienn]

A lot of people still arguing as if the wall can't change hands... ha!

The castles are all on the south side... sure NOW they are, who knows about when it was first built.

White walkers don't cross it, sure NOW they don't... who knows about when it was first built.

My little random theory has no evidence really, but it is possible that with the Pact after the Long Night that men agreed to guard the wall, even if they hadn't built it, and they agreed to pass down stories that nightmarish creatures (Grumpkins and Snarks) lived beyond the wall to keep MOST humans afraid of venturing that far north. I'll never see how some of you guys can be so absolutist about something when you have so very little information...

[Eyron]

Ah. That explains it.

Still, I think my reasoning is sound. A Wall manned from the south is intended to guard the south from the north. The oldest form of the Night's Watch oath we are aware of is probably the passphrase at the Black Gate. It ends, "I am the shield that guards the realms of men." Nothing about guarding CotF, giants, direwolves, etc. Any claim to the contrary needs real evidence to outweigh this.

But if we take this literally, the realms of men is all they guard. Not the north of it, which is wild territory, and can't be defended from the north at all. The men south of the Wall do not claim the lands beyond the Wall, it's a no-mans-land. Unless we think of it as Jon does, which is non-literal, and the "realms" is more a way of describing the peoples, all men and creatures, and not their lands.

If we are reading it non-literally, I don't see why we can read 'the realms of men' as the realm of the living, as opposed to the realm of the dead. Or as the realms of our brothers, the CotF included, for example.

Or indeed, as literally as you say, everything north of the Wall is of the 'Other' and not part of the realms of men. Which makes everything north the enemy, including the CotF, the giants etc.

The Pact already separated the CotF and the FM by land type. The only thing that really provoked the CotF to fight was when the FM started cutting down weirwoods. FM creating godswoods around weirwood heart trees would seem to be part of the FM accepting the CotF religion, something the CotF would support.

Perhaps, but not certainly. If you are a CotF you live in the hollow hills beneath the weirwoods, and there are not a lot of weirwoods left, even in the North the weirwoods are scarce outside the godswoods. North of the Wall on the other hand, they grow where they please, and in numbers, and no one builds walls around them. Everyone can access them.

Apparently the final battle was quite decisive, and bought the FM enough time to get started building the Wall. For the magic to work, you would probably only need a coast-to-coast wall one brick high. Just a line. In the end, a defensive fortification is simply a manpower saver. You could still hold the line without the Wall, but you might need 20 or 30 times as many men. It's economical to spend the money/effort just once on the structure.

But what would you hold the line for? Magic as you say does not need a high Wall.

They could paddle rafts or canoes around Eastwatch. But as long as there were real gates in the Wall, there would be no need to. The cultures north and south of the Wall hadn't become separated yet. The "Wildings" were still friends with those south of the Wall. They weren't Wildings yet. Or everyone was. Joramun worked with the Stark in Winterfell to oust the Nights King. The rift undoubtedly came later, as the many small kingdomlettes south of the Wall coalesced into the Seven Kingdoms. That's the movement the Wildings resisted.

This is actually one of the things I'm most puzzled by. But on the other hand we don't know if Joramun the wildling king lived north of the Wall at that time. He's both said to have helped the King in the North against the Night's King and then in attempts to go south fought the Stark of Winterfell, whom is also said to have brought down the Night's King, Joramun blew the horn of Winter and woke the giants from the earth etc, so... There are a lot of things that don't add up.

When you build a defensive line, you don't make sure all your friends are behind it. You make sure none of your enemies are behind it.

(The whole idea in the Heresy thread of the Black Gate being the only original way through the Wall literally started with someone posting, "What if the BG was originally the only way through the Wall?" Lots of people liked the sound of that, and BOOM! it became Heresy Canon. Without a single iota of evidence.)

The evidence is that all the gates are at castles, of which all are [at maximum] half the age of the Nightfort, which has an underground gate made of talking weirwood. There is no evidence that any gates were there before any castles were. It's not far fetched to assume that this has always been the case. Why do you assume that there were gates before the castles?

[Dryhtscipe]

Also crossed my mind. Still, don't understand the whole babies thing.

Maybe they were taking the babies because they felt sorry for them, and they're sexist.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

But if we take this literally, the realms of men is all they guard.

Right.

Or indeed, as literally as you say, everything north of the Wall is of the 'Other' and not part of the realms of men. Which makes everything north the enemy, including the CotF, the giants etc.

Nope. They're just outside the area the Watch has been directed to guard. They're on their own, those folks north of the Wall. Some like it that way. But that doesn't make them enemies.

Perhaps, but not certainly. If you are a CotF you live in the hollow hills beneath the weirwoods, and there are not a lot of weirwoods left, even in the North the weirwoods are scarce outside the godswoods. North of the Wall on the other hand, they grow where they please, and in numbers, and no one builds walls around them. Everyone can access them.

The Wall was built long before the Andal invasion. Weirwoods were undoubtedly more common then. They seem to be common enough between the Neck and the Wall now, even if they aren't seen in large groups. The largest concentration of weirwoods we know of existed at High Heart, before they were cut down.

The evidence is that all the gates are at castles, of which all are [at maximum] half the age of the Nightfort, which has an underground gate made of talking weirwood. There is no evidence that any gates were there before any castles were. It's not far fetched to assume that this has always been the case. Why do you assume that there were gates before the castles?

1) It makes military sense, as I stated above.

2) There is simply no conceivable way that the Wall could ever have been defended solely from the Nightfort. If the castles didn't exist yet, surely camps did. It's not so much a case of all the gates being at castles, as all the castles being at gates. You really don't need a castle at a gate, anyway. The Wall provides defense from the threat from the north, and the Watch intentionally leaves itself vulnerable from the south. All you need are housing and service buildings. The better question is why do castles (or at least towers) exist south of the Wall now? Answer- to guard the Watch officers from their own men, if necessary. The Watch might very well have been used to absorb lawbreakers from its earliest days. (Remember those 500 cells at the Nightfort?)