Dany laughed! (Book 5 spoilers)

[PatrickStormborn]

I think that's going a bit far. As a reader I don't empathize with many POV characters, both male and female. If Dany happens to be one of them that makes me a bad feminist? lol.

It has nothing to do with feminism. I'm just pointing out that generally - for whatever reason - readers seem to empathise with Quentyn, a character we barely know, over Daenerys, even though her situation is far more dangerous and severe.

As to your second point about Dany's problems being worse - so what? That shouldn't give her a free pass at insulting Quentyn who was not just "a little embarrassed" - he had traveled hundreds of miles, seen atrocities and lost some of his friends. The fact that Dany has problems of her own is in no way connected to Dany laughing at Quentyn.

I never said it should give her a free pass. I said that readers, for whatever reason, seem to empathise more with Quentyn, whilst Dany's problems are certainly more serious than being laughed at. And that was actually Quentyn's only problem. Yes, he saw atrocities (and participated in them - he butchered many at Astapor), but Dany promised to make an alliance with Dorne regardless of whether she married him, and she hinted that he may ride a dragon.

So I just cannot bring myself to understand why anyone would interpret Dany's laughter as anything but a bit of poor diplomacy. And I certainly can't understand why more people empathise with Quentyn than Dany in this situation, because I imagine that the majority of readers probably would have reacted similarly to Daenerys if they had been in her position.

[The She Wolf]

It has nothing to do with feminism. I'm just pointing out that generally - for whatever reason - readers seem to empathise with Quentyn, a character we barely know, over Daenerys, even though her situation is far more dangerous and severe.

You say "for whatever reason", but then you're assuming this reason is that Dany is female and Quentyn is male, which I do not agree with. Maybe people find Quentyn a better written character, more easy to relate to, etc.

If the genders were reversed and it was a dragon king laughing at a simple-looking princess of Dorne who had gone through the same struggles, I think people would still empathize with the one being laughed at. At least I would.

[protar]

I never said it should give her a free pass. I said that readers, for whatever reason, seem to empathise more with Quentyn, whilst Dany's problems are certainly more serious than being laughed at. And that was actually Quentyn's only problem. Yes, he saw atrocities (and participated in them - he butchered many at Astapor), but Dany promised to make an alliance with Dorne regardless of whether she married him, and she hinted that he may ride a dragon.

So I just cannot bring myself to understand why anyone would interpret Dany's laughter as anything but a bit of poor diplomacy. And I certainly can't understand why more people empathise with Quentyn than Dany in this situation, because I imagine that the majority of readers probably would have reacted similarly to Daenerys if they had been in her position.

The reason we empathise with Quentyn is because he's the one being spurned in that situation. Everyone loves the underdog and Quents the underdog here. I agree it was little more than a poor act diplomatically but it was also pretty cruel. Dany couldn't know just how hard it would hit Quent but it was insensitive nonetheless.

I think people empathise and sympathise less with Dany in Meereen because a lot of it is her own fault. She goes into Meereen with a very naive view of how to abolish slavery, so when it all goes wrong it's her fault. Had Dany never gone to Slaver's Bay the slave industry would still be going strong admittedly, but there would also be no war, no plague, no famine etc. Quent on the other hand has very little choice in his task and clearly doesn't really want to do it.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I'm really not sure how readers can possibly read Dany's chapters and find her to be "going insane". There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. It's just a combination of wishful thinking, lacking empathy for female characters, and misunderstanding the text.

...really? REALLY? Between what Protor said about introducing the Targ madness into the story in general, the fact Dany's suffered from YEARS of psychological and physical abuse by the hands of Viserys and arguably Khal Drogo, her constant shifting living/power situations*, things like her MAKING OUT with a sellsword in front of her entire court despite being bethrothed, the fact she clearly does not try to learn anything about or empathize IN THE SLIGHTEST with any of the culture in Slaver's Bay despite having the sense of self-entitlement that she can "save' everyone, things like this, the fact she's had a crazy witch curse her which Cersei proves messes you up good, etc.

* = just constantly moving homes is enough to give a kid today emotional problems

Plus don't forget, when Feast/Dance were originally supposed to be one giant tome, Cersei and Dany were supposed to be PARALLEL characters. Two female ladies off their marbles in ruling positions and making horrible choices for everyone. GRRM himself says that not having the chapters parallel was one of the downsides of the two book divide.

Oh, and furthermore, discussing Dany's mental health in such a crass way is actually very offensive to people who suffer from mental health disorders.

"Insane" is a legal term. No one TECHNICALLY suffers from insanity, unless they've be labeled such by a court of law. At least, that's how it is in the states. I never said "she's going schizophrenic" or "she's bipolar" or "she suffers extreme social anxiety" or anything such as that. Calm yourself.

Yes, but part of that is because audiences and readers generally find it easier to empathise with male characters over female characters.

Oh wow, sexist generalizations much?

[PatrickStormborn]

You say "for whatever reason", but then you're assuming this reason is that Dany is female and Quentyn is male, which I do not agree with. Maybe people find Quentyn a better written character, more easy to relate to, etc.

If the genders were reversed and it was a dragon king laughing at a simple-looking princess of Dorne who had gone through the same struggles, I think people would still empathize with the one being laughed at. At least I would.

Well empathising with a character is similar to relating to them, no?

I empathise with both Daenerys and Quentyn. That's the point I'm trying to make. We don't need to vilify Daenerys in that situation to empathise with Quentyn, particularly as Dany's problems are much more severe than Quentyn's. But for some reason a lot of readers are unable to see the situation from Dany's POV (despite being in Dany's POV since the beginning of the series).

...really? REALLY? Between what Protor said about introducing the Targ madness into the story in general, the fact Dany's suffered from YEARS of psychological and physical abuse by the hands of Viserys and arguably Khal Drogo, her constant shifting living/power situations*, things like her MAKING OUT with a sellsword in front of her entire court despite being bethrothed, the fact she clearly does not try to learn anything about or empathize IN THE SLIGHTEST with any of the culture in Slaver's Bay despite having the sense of self-entitlement that she can "save' everyone, things like this, the fact she's had a crazy witch curse her which Cersei proves messes you up good, etc.

1. The Targ madness has already been validated in the story through King Aerys. But I think many are misinterpreting the Targaryen madness. The whole point is that the "great" Targaryens are "great" because they're a little bit more "mad" than other people. It doesn't mean that there are "great" Targaryens and "mad" Targaryens IMO. Rhaegar and Dany are both "great", but that's because they do things that would be considered "mad".
   
   
2. Dany's abuse have caused issues, but they do not appear to have caused insanity.
   
   
3. She did not "make out" with a sellsword in front of her entire court.
   
   
4. She empathises with the Green Grace and her child hostages.
   
   
5. Crucifying 163 Great Masters isn't proof of insanity. It's proof of her ruthlessness. And it actually would have been a good idea if Dany hadn't started trying to appease the slavers.
   
   
6. Cersei proves that Cersei can be messed up by a "curse" (it's actually a prophecy). Daenerys is a completely different character.
   

* = just constantly moving homes is enough to give a kid today emotional problems

And you're right: it has given Dany emotional problems. But that does not equate to "insanity".

Plus don't forget, when Feast/Dance were originally supposed to be one giant tome, Cersei and Dany were supposed to be PARALLEL characters. Two female ladies off their marbles in ruling positions and making horrible choices for everyone. GRRM himself says that not having the chapters parallel was one of the downsides of the two book divide.

You said it yourself: they were supposed to parallel. They were not supposed to be the same.

Cersei is consumed by prophecy; in ADwD we see that Dany is dancing towards the same path as Cersei, but ultimately rejects prophecy time and time again and attempts to move on without it. This is the opposite of Cersei.

Oh wow, sexist generalizations much?

LOL. It's true. Audiences find it easier to empathise with male characters. One only needs to look at the hate for characters such as Skyler White, Lori Grimes and Catelyn Stark to understand that.

[Vengeance]

If Quentyn hadn't been so wet about it he'd have stood a chance

Maybe after she laughed something like...

Quentyn could sense Ser Gerris bristling with anger beside him, he stopped him instantly with an icy look that spoke silently of danger. This is no easily cowed maid, but a Queen in truth, he thought to himself. Prince Quentyn of Dorne threw back his cloak, the Sunspear of his House gleaming proudly on his cuirass, and looked up at this young queen with a renewed fire in his eyes and emboldened by her faltering smile, he spoke strong and clear:

"Daenerys Stormborn, we stand here before you three less in number than when we set out from Dorne…we have lost along the way, but we have journeyed over 1000 miles, through fire and blood, to pledge to you 20,000 Dornish spears to take the Iron Throne"

Quentyn threw himself down on one knee, and first the other Dornish, and then the rest of the throne room followed, until all but the Queen stood, her smile gone and eyes wide

"I beg you, return with us to Westeros...and reclaim your birthright"

Oh, she fainted, is that a yes?

:cool4: SHE'D HAVE BEEN ON THAT DORNISH COCK LIKE A DOG ON HOT CHIPS

[protar]

LOL. It's true. Audiences find it easier to empathise with male characters. One only needs to look at the hate for characters such as Skyler White, Lori Grimes and Catelyn Stark to understand that.

It's not true. Males are more likely to empathise with males, but that is because it's simply human nature to empaphise with those like you. Female characters will tend to get empathy from females, and obviously all characters that are written to be sympathetic get empathy from either gender if the writing is good. There's nothing sexist about that. If I do sympathise with a male character more it's not due to my lack of respect for women, it's because they probably think more like me, act more like me etc. etc.

ETA: Case in point - Quentyn. I know what it's like to have self-esteem issues, to struggle with impressing girls, to feel inadequate around my much taller and more handsome friends. I sympathise with Dany but there's really nothing in her arc that I personally have experienced in any sense.

[Frumpus]

LOL. It's true. Audiences find it easier to empathise with male characters. One only needs to look at the hate for characters such as Skyler White, Lori Grimes and Catelyn Stark to understand that.

Sadly this is more due to the misoginist society we live in, and not because of some supposed superiority of male characters over female ones.

@Protar, I dunno man, you're pretty much stating that as if its some scientific fact, but you aren't listing any sources.

All I know is that on the Walking Dead, Andrea was the most hated character among women, and the racist redneck male character Daryl Dixon is somehow the most popular character among women, largely because of his looks and protective behavior I guess?

[The Mountain That Posts]

PLEASE NOTE, my quoting thing refuses to work, so fuck it all.

PatrickStormborn:

I empathise with both Daenerys and Quentyn. That's the point I'm trying to make. We don't need to vilify Daenerys in that situation to empathise with Quentyn, particularly as Dany's problems are much more severe than Quentyn's. But for some reason a lot of readers are unable to see the situation from Dany's POV (despite being in Dany's POV since the beginning of the series).

Me:

Actually, in that situation, I feel sorry for Dany. As much as I hate Harry Potter, it's like that situation where Harry laughed while on a date and it ruined everything and things were never fixed. Sometimes something gets lost in translation between two people, and that's what happened here.

It's not Dany's fault that Quen took offense, but he did, and it drove him to doing something really fucking stupid. It happens. Maybe if Dany had apologized for laughing as well, it would've been fine. But at the end of the day, that's not what happened, because something needed to happen to drive the plot forward. ;)

Patrick:

1. The Targ madness has already been validated in the story through King Aerys. But I think many are misinterpreting the Targaryen madness. The whole point is that the "great" Targaryens are "great" because they're a little bit more "mad" than other people. It doesn't mean that there are "great" Targaryens and "mad" Targaryens IMO. Rhaegar and Dany are both "great", but that's because they do things that would be considered "mad".
   
   Me:
   Did anyone try and separate the two? I sure didn't. I'm a strong believer that madness and greatness can often coincide, even if by some cruel irony.
   
   Napoleon is probably my favorite historical figure, for reference. :P
   
   Patrick:
   
2. Dany's abuse have caused issues, but they do not appear to have caused insanity.
   
   Me:
   Like I said, insanity is a legal term. I only used that term because, quite frankly, it's still too early in the story to tell what IS wrong with her head and the fact we don't PERSONALLY see her from any POV perspective doesn't help either. Even when the series is over, i'm sure the exact condition she suffers from will still be under debate. Especially if the TV show continues to whitewash her and make her out to be Jesus.
   
   Patrick:
   
3. She did not "make out" with a sellsword in front of her entire court.
   
   Me:
   She made out with Daario in her throne IN FRONT of the court and Barristan had to separate them. I'll post the exact section later.
   
   Patrick:
   
4. She empathises with the Green Grace and her child hostages.
   
   Me:
   Yes, because she herself was basically a slave. Dany has selective understanding of others, I think. How anyone can care so much about slavery but NOT understand the damages and horrors of war? Ugh.
   
   Patrick:
   
5. Crucifying 163 Great Masters isn't proof of insanity. It's proof of her ruthlessness. And it actually would have been a good idea if Dany hadn't started trying to appease the slavers.
   
   Me:
   If you really think that... man, I don't even know what to say. Read the whole thread. :P But seriously, I don't even understand how you don't understand that this is proof 101.
   
   It's just all around STUPID.
   

Patrick:

Cersei is consumed by prophecy; in ADwD we see that Dany is dancing towards the same path as Cersei, but ultimately rejects prophecy time and time again and attempts to move on without it. This is the opposite of Cersei.

Me:

True enough. But you can't deny that they are both parallel stories about women in power and causing more problems than they were solving.

Cersei also was doing everything out of self-interest whereas Dany was trying to legitimately do what was right, but regardless, they were causing conflict and not fixing it.

Patrick:

LOL. It's true. Audiences find it easier to empathise with male characters. One only needs to look at the hate for characters such as Skyler White, Lori Grimes and Catelyn Stark to understand that.

Me:

This is so painfully false that it's actually cringeworthy.

YES it's true that people tend to relate more to males than females in works of fiction, MAINLY television and film, but the reason for that isn't because we all inherently relate more to our gender. The reason for that stems from females being written terribly by Hollywood and creative writing classes teaching students that audiences are UNINTERESTED in females.

It's completely based in sexism, and it stems from Hollywood and universities.

Now as for ASOIAF, shame you mentioned Cat. The same character who has a SHITton of really disturbing thoughts and cruel quotes throughout the books. And no, not even just about Jon Snow. And even then, I still relate to Cat's plights and thoughts more often than not.

But yeah, at the end of the day, you really are agreeing with sexism. There's a reason characters like Arya and Dany and Brienne are MUCH more popular than most male characters. Hell, even Tyrion and Jon Snow didn't become the be-all-end-all fanfavorites until the show came out.

[Broken Fox]

If you can't see why people like Daryl Dixon and hate Laurie/Andrea I really don't know what to tell you. It sure as hell has nothing to do with sexism.

The raging "feminism" on this site is annoying as fuck...

[Frumpus]

If you can't see why people like Daryl Dixon and hate Laurie/Andrea I really don't know what to tell you. It sure as hell has nothing to do with sexism.

The raging "feminism" on this site is annoying as fuck...

If you're replying to me, I was pointing out that women hate Andrea (far more than men do), which dispels the notion of same sex empathy. I don't care what the actual reasons for like and dislike of a certain character are.

If Protar is going to say that men are more likely to empatize with male characters, then he needs to back it up with sources. I for one, always empatize more with female characters, and I'm male.

[PatrickStormborn]

The intense hatred for characters like Sansa, Catelyn, Lori, Andrea and Skyler White is nothing more than sexism. End of discussion.

Actually, in that situation, I feel sorry for Dany. As much as I hate Harry Potter, it's like that situation where Harry laughed while on a date and it ruined everything and things were never fixed. Sometimes something gets lost in translation between two people, and that's what happened here.

It's not Dany's fault that Quen took offense, but he did, and it drove him to doing something really fucking stupid. It happens. Maybe if Dany had apologized for laughing as well, it would've been fine. But at the end of the day, that's not what happened, because something needed to happen to drive the plot forward. ;)

Considering that Quentyn later denies that Dany laughed at him, it is ridiculous to argue that "it drove him to do something".

Yes, because she herself was basically a slave. Dany has selective understanding of others, I think. How anyone can care so much about slavery but NOT understand the damages and horrors of war? Ugh.

You're right, and this is something I agree with. But it is not proof of insanity/madness/whatever you want to call it (and, as she's about to be reunited with the Dothraki, I imagine her selective empathy will be ending shortly).

If you really think that... man, I don't even know what to say. Read the whole thread. :P But seriously, I don't even understand how you don't understand that this is proof 101.

It's just all around STUPID.

Nope, it's not at all proof of madness. Cruelty? Perhaps. Ruthlessness? Definitely. Madness? I don't see it.

Crucifying those slavers (whilst extreme and ruthless) would have been an effective move if Daenerys had continued to act similarly. Instead she begins appeasing the Great Masters, and (as the Shavepate notes) they realise she is desperate for peace and begin to take advantage of her, which is the cause of the vast majority of her problems in ADwD.

To summarise: if Dany had crucified more Great Masters after the first Sons of the Harpy attack, there wouldn't have been any more Sons of the Harpy attacks.

True enough. But you can't deny that they are both parallel stories about women in power and causing more problems than they were solving.

Cersei also was doing everything out of self-interest whereas Dany was trying to legitimately do what was right, but regardless, they were causing conflict and not fixing it.

So? It is not proof of Dany being mad.

This is so painfully false that it's actually cringeworthy.

YES it's true that people tend to relate more to males than females in works of fiction, MAINLY television and film, but the reason for that isn't because we all inherently relate more to our gender. The reason for that stems from females being written terribly by Hollywood and creative writing classes teaching students that audiences are UNINTERESTED in females.

It's completely based in sexism, and it stems from Hollywood and universities.

Now as for ASOIAF, shame you mentioned Cat. The same character who has a SHITton of really disturbing thoughts and cruel quotes throughout the books. And no, not even just about Jon Snow.

But yeah, at the end of the day, you really are agreeing with sexism. There's a reason characters like Arya and Dany and Brienne are MUCH more popular than most male characters. Hell, even Tyrion and Jon Snow didn't become the be-all-end-all fanfavorites until the show came out.

So you're basically agreeing with me that audiences empathise with male characters over female characters?

Personally I think female characters are more interesting and engaging than male characters, but for some reason the vast majority of audiences/readers don't agree (which is evident by your comments about Catelyn).

I'm not "agreeing with sexism" LMFAO, what a ridiculous point. I'm commenting that, due to our sexist society, readers and audiences empathise with male characters above female characters.

But anyway, I want proof that Daenerys and Daario were "making out" in court and had to be stopped by Barristan.

[Broken Fox]

The intense hatred for characters like Sansa, Catelyn, Lori, Andrea and Skyler White is nothing more than sexism. End of discussion.

:lol: That is absolutely ridiculous. Get real, dude.

[protar]

If you're replying to me, I was pointing out that women hate Andrea (far more than men do), which dispels the notion of same sex empathy. I don't care what the actual reasons for like and dislike of a certain character are.

If Protar is going to say that men are more likely to empatize with male characters, then he needs to back it up with sources. I for one, always empatize more with female characters, and I'm male.

I didn't say you had to empathise with male characters just that it is more likely. Sources are pretty pointless here. I have no surveys or graphs to show you and I take it neither do you, so all we've got is anecdotal evidence which is faulty at best (And which I've given.).

And make sure you're not mistaking empathy with sympathy. I'm sure most people sympathise with women as well as men if they are written to be sympathetic. And I'm sure there are even plenty of misogynists who sympathise with women in a sexist, patronising way. Empathy is about being able to relate to the characters and their plights.

In short you sympathise with characters who are nice. You empathise with characters who you have shared experiences with. This is more likely if you have something in common e.g gender.

[The Mountain That Posts]

The intense hatred for characters like Sansa, Catelyn, Lori, Andrea and Skyler White is nothing more than sexism. End of discussion.

Honestly, the intense hatred for Sansa isn't because of sexism. The intense hatred of Sansa stems from the fact that she's immature, airheaded, whishywashy(I hate riding/I love riding), the fact she betrays her family multiple times in book 1 and the fact that people CLAIM that her plot goes no where in book2/first half of book 3. Plus, it doesn't help that her actress does a pisspoor job(in my opinion) in season two - especially in episodes like the Blackwater episode. (but a lot of that hinges more on D&D writing terrible dialogue and plot deviations, Sophie Turner is a great actress as she proved in season one)

Sansa IN HINDSIGHT? She's one of the most popular characters in the BOOK series. I personally ALWAYS loved her chapters because she's one of the most relatable characters in this fantasyuniverse all together. Other people? MOST people that hate Sansa are show-watchers, not book-readers, and behind that - there's loads of reasons(like I mentioned) that explain WHY people dislike her. Not because of sexism.

Catelyn? People hate Catelyn because she thinks and says HORRIBLE things(oh hurray the library's burning, I hate hate hate Jon Snow, Edmure's letting all these god damn useless mouths into Riverrun FUCK, etc.) and makes some HORRIBLE choices like arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime. People don't hate her because she's female, they hate her because she thinks and does terrible things - even if she also thinks and does amazingly kind things(trying to make peace at every turn, definitely caring first and foremost about her family, being able to trust people like Tyrion despite being her enemy, etc.)

As for Skyler White... people hate her because her plotlines drag and that whole Ted stupidness didn't become relevant until the last five minutes of the third to last episode in season 4. It's not sexism in the slightest. Besides, that show has a very minimal cast, so more time with a smaller group of characters mean you're more likely to hate one by the end. I couldn't STAND most of the characters in Lost by the end for that reason. (Sayid, Sun, Jin, Kate, Claire, Ben, Desmond, etc.)

Haven't seen Walking Dead, but that show seems horribly vapid and stupid in general.

Considering that Quentyn later denies that Dany laughed at him, it is ridiculous to argue that "it drove him to do something".

Okay, but his companions would argue that - and they're what matters since Dorne no longer supporting Dany hinges on that. ;)

You're right, and this is something I agree with. But it is not proof of insanity/madness/whatever you want to call it (and, as she's about to be reunited with the Dothraki, I imagine her selective empathy will be ending shortly).

We'll see. Honestly, I have no idea what's going to happen to Dany in the next book.

Nope, it's not at all proof of madness. Cruelty? Perhaps. Ruthlessness? Definitely. Madness? I don't see it.

Because killing potentially 150 innocent people because a few killed all those kids. Real sane justice there.

The actions of the few shouldn't punish the many, yet Dany reacts the opposite.

Whether or not Dany is mad is yet to be seen, and I agree that based off this one thing alone that she doesn't NECESSARILY seem mad, but all the things I posted together? We'll see what happens. Just saying, if it DOES turn out she causes more problems in the future books, don't be surprised - the hints are all there by GRRM.

So you're basically agreeing with me that audiences empathise with male characters over female characters?

Not because of sexism at the basic level, but because of sexism BEHIND THE SCENES in what's being taught and preached in schools and in TV studios, yes.

Personally I think female characters are more interesting and engaging than male characters, but for some reason the vast majority of audiences/readers don't agree

It's NOT a gender thing, it's a well written character thing. Film schools, writing schools, etc. ENCOURAGE everything be about men and that women think about men constantly, etc, etc.

So that leads to vapid and often times clearly misogynistic female characters in TV and film. In literature, it's different. In literature, it depends on the writer - not the gender of whoever's reading.

(which is evident by your comments about Catelyn).

Because I can't have feelings of dislike towards a character without being a sexist. AMIRITE?

Keep in mind, I LIKE Cat's chapters. I like her chapters and I find her character understandable in ALL instances, and even appreciate her being the only character trying to appeal for peace. But I still can think she is an awful person, especially now that she's Lady Stoneheart.

But anyway, I want proof that Daenerys and Daario were "making out" in court and had to be stopped by Barristan.

It exists. I don't have my books here with me, but if no one else posts the quote section of that DwD chapter, then I will later.

[Vengeance]

The intense hatred for characters like Sansa, Catelyn, Lori, Andrea and Skyler White is nothing more than sexism. End of discussion.

Have you had a funny turn? Do settle down. They are not likeable characters because they aren't written that way: each of those are examples of a character whose flaws dominate their actions. In fiction, as in real life, people whose personalities are ruled by their weaknesses do not inspire much love amongst their observers. Do you think millions of people can't stand Sarah Palin, or Margaret Thatcher (or someone truly detestable like the awful Jan Moir) because they're women? Plus in fiction, people are far less forgiving of character flaws than in real life: they want their characters to reflect an image of themselves that is mostly fantasy. We're all flawed after all

[Broken Fox]

He's delusional. You'd have better luck arguing with a wall.

"Blah blah Daenerys is god and if you disagree you're a sexist."

[Vengeance]

Must be fuckin' crackers - is he a secret Targaryen?

[OuterZan]

He's delusional. You'd have better luck arguing with a wall.

This.

On topic:

I hope that they will put the scene in, because I believe that its important, one way or another.

[RSasoiaf]

I think that's going a bit far. As a reader I don't empathize with many POV characters, both male and female. If Dany happens to be one of them that makes me a bad feminist? lol.

I did empathize with her a bit in book 1 (even though I hated the whole falling in love with your rapist concept) but after that I could not care less about her story. I just find myself cringing at so many of her actions and her train of thought (which is the same way I feel for quite a few male POVs, mostly Greyjoys). I also just don't care about those storylines and find reading them a chore. As to evidence of her mental imbalance? Well there's a lot of emphasis on Targaryens generally not having stable minds and making bad decisions. There's also the constant comparing her with Rhaegar, who I have reason to believe was also a very troubled soul.

You need to read again Dany´s chapters if you think she looked at her husband as a rapist. And also you need to read with a clear mindset and not with a 20th century western world mindset.

If you do this you will find:

1 - Danny is submissive to her brother but she has an idea not everything is 100% right about him. She has her doubts about her brother´s plans and whishful thinking. And also she has some doubts on his character.

2 - Danny fears Drogo for the sake of what she knows about her brother. For her, man are evil and will subdue women....she does not know anything else before Drogo marries her. This is why she is afraid of the marriage in general, not specifically about Drogo but she as a childlike reaction of: "i dont want to get married! I want to stay at home and remain a child"

3 - Her views about Drogo are conflicted to begin with, due to her internal conflict on point 2. She clearly admires the Alfa Male Drogo his. She feels lust for his power and strenght. This is there on the adjectives she gives him the very first time she gets to see him. She says he is way more gracious and looks way way better then what she may have imagined. She kind of as a girl crush on the great body, great leader stuff. This will not get away and will remain always on her mind the whole time. Once she goes for the marriage, she wants to be this man´s wife. She wants him to love her, to talk to her, to care for her.

4 - Then come the cultural issues and the way in which Drogo seems to not look for her on her first weeks. There are several things behind this. She is alone with very few people she can speak with. Her brother is not getting better and she is just starting to know a couple more people. Besides this she is at the limit of her body regarding the dothraki lifestile. She cant handle it for the 1st weeks and its understandable. Its also understandable her husband would not spend much time with her to begin with. He cant speak with her!!!!!!!! He cant also just hang around and look scared or loving.....would not be a good policy for both of them considering how Dothraki work. There´s a lot to be said about Drogo. One of the small things to note is that he is trying to learn how to speak her language. It was his choice not to share her with his bloodriders and he could well have done that. So, by all accounts, Drogo is doing as best he can but Danny has to find strenght or perish because that´s the Dotraki way. And Danny eventually finds strenght.

5 - Once Danny starts interacting in Dotraki, we find out Drogo actually talks with her. He seems to always do what she wants and he even risks some of his authority doing that. It´s 100% obvious the guy really loves his wife and he is willing to do pretty much whatever is necessary for her.

I am tired of people thinking Drogo was brutal or did rape Danny.

In the context of their world, Drogo as was kind as possible and even above average....now just consider what this says coming out from a barbarian warlord.

It was not Drogo who sold Danny into this marriage. She was available and he decided to take her. The ones who did make her available for barbarians were Viserys and Illyrio. Those were the real bastards. As far as they could know, Danny could have ended up being shared among bloodriders, abused and dead in a short time span. Illyrio might have known Drogo a bit to make his bet like he did. But Viserys was really a BASTARD!