Dany laughed! (Book 5 spoilers)

[Dark_Sister]

This "if you dislike a female character you are a misogynist" is starting to get old. Some people should try to see the difference between criticism based on a character's gender and criticism based on their traits and/or personality.

Most of the people who dislike Dany don't dislike her because she is a girl and wants power for herself, most people dislike her because she can be very arrogant, because she has done some very harsh things, because her choices are not always good, because she can be impulsive...

A lot of people dislike Cersei not because she is a woman trying to rule in a man's world, they dislike her because she is cruel, impulsive, selfish, she doesn't really think ahead....

Other people dislike Sansa not because she is a very feminine girl and acts and thinks like a normal girl, it is because she can be extremely naive, because so far she has been a ver passive character....

People don't hate Catelyn because she is a woman who makes her own choices, they dislike her because she can be impulsive and doesn't really think about the consequences her actions might have (even when most of those actions are to protect her family), because they find her POV dull...

I've seen people who dislike Brienne not because she is a woman who decided to do what she wanted, they dislike her because her POV can be very dull and lacks moral ambiguity...

People criticize Arya not because she is a girl who doesn't act like she is supposed to, they dislike her because she is impulsive, can be very violent, they find her arc too unrealistic...

Of course there are people who hate female character because of their gender, but most people have valid reasons to dislike or criticize a character, so please stop saying that anyone who says anything bad about a female character is a misogynist because it's not true and it gives the impression that all female characters are perfect and beyond criticism, and that is not true. Women are as complex as and as flawed as men, and that is one of the good things ASOIAF has, that all characters have depth no matter their gender.

[David Selig]

This "if you dislike a female character you are a misogynist" is starting to get old. Some people should try to see the difference between criticism based on a character's gender and criticism based on their traits and/or personality.

Most of the people who dislike Dany don't dislike her because she is a girl and wants power for herself, most people dislike her because she can be very arrogant, because she has done some very harsh things, because her choices are not always good, because she can be impulsive...

A lot of people dislike Cersei not because she is a woman trying to rule in a man's world, they dislike her because she is cruel, impulsive, selfish, she doesn't really think ahead....

Other people dislike Sansa not because she is a very feminine girl and acts and thinks like a normal girl, it is because she can be extremely naive, because so far she has been a ver passive character....

People don't hate Catelyn because she is a woman who makes her own choices, they dislike her because she can be impulsive and doesn't really think about the consequences her actions might have (even when most of those actions are to protect her family), because they find her POV dull...

I've seen people who dislike Brienne not because she is a woman who decided to do what she wanted, they dislike her because her POV can be very dull and lacks moral ambiguity...

People criticize Arya not because she is a girl who doesn't act like she is supposed to, they dislike her because she is impulsive, can be very violent, they find her arc too unrealistic...

Of course there are people who hate female character because of their gender, but most people have valid reasons to dislike or criticize a character, so please stop saying that anyone who says anything bad about a female character is a misogynist because it's not true and it gives the impression that all female characters are perfect and beyond criticism, and that is not true. Women are as complex as and as flawed as men, and that is one of the good things ASOIAF has, that all characters have depth no matter their gender.

This is a blatant strawman argument. Nobody is saying this.

[Dark_Sister]

The intense hatred for characters like Sansa, Catelyn, Lori, Andrea and Skyler White is nothing more than sexism. End of discussion.

Someone said this, so yeah, I think I had a reason to write that post

[David Selig]

Someone said this, so yeah, I think I had a reason to write that post

What you quoted is not the same thing at all as "if you dislike a female character you are a misogynist". Patrick is speaking about the fandom in general, not individual viewers/posters. Plus there is a big difference between "dislike" and "intense hatred".

[Daske]

About the bolded statement, it's not so simple.

... snipped for space

Thoughtful post Red Hound. Agree with a lot you say there.

[Dark_Sister]

What you quoted is not the same thing at all as "if you dislike a female character you are a misogynist". Patrick is speaking about the fandom in general, not individual viewers/posters. Plus there is a big difference between "dislike" and "intense hatred".

Oh, so saying that the hatred some people in the fandom feels towards certain female characters is sexism is not the same as saying that the people who feel that hate are sexist, and because I used the term dislike instead of hate my post has no basis. Ok.

I can change dislike for hate, but to me it seems you just disagree with me and are trying to nitpick my post to make it invalid. Do it if you want, I really don't care

[Vengeance]

May I ask what Oooof means in this context? :P

It means 'BLOODY 'ELL, NOW THAT'S AN INTERESTING THOUGHT!'

[Cruella]

I think protar has a point with "mundane" explanation, but it is depressing in itself, like some readers can't appreciate writing which reflects real life, can't deal with realistic depiction of grief, of human helplessness. One has to wonder if they read serious literature or just stick to escapist light-fantasy fare. Until recently I didn't even realize that so many read so little or do no read anything worthy, but now that i know it's possible...

[protar]

I think protar has a point with "mundane" explanation, but it is depressing in itself, like some readers can't appreciate writing which reflects real life, can't deal with realistic depiction of grief, of human helplessness. One has to wonder if they read serious literature or just stick to escapist light-fantasy fare. Until recently I didn't even realize that so many read so little or do no read anything worthy, but now that i know it's possible...

I don't think poor taste in literature has anything to do with it (as it would indicate I have poor taste in literature ;) ). I praise Martin for Cat's character - few writers can write such realistic characters in a fantasy, and if I'm feeling Cat's pain then he's succeeded somewhere. But it does get a little heavy and tiresome sometimes, and it comes across as odd when all of the other characters who suffer - and often worse than Cat - manage to have moments of happiness and laughter in their chapters.

Cat has always struck me as a character who might be interesting analyse, but not so much to read.

[mormont]

Cat has moments of happiness: sadly, they're mostly in the early part of AGOT.

[protar]

Cat has moments of happiness: sadly, they're mostly in the early part of AGOT.

I agree, and that was certainly when I found Cat the most interesting to read. :)

[OuterZan]

It exists. I don't have my books here with me, but if no one else posts the quote section of that DwD chapter, then I will later.

I tried to find it by looking for "daario" in the ebook version. I didnt, but man, you wont believe how many times she mentions him. Its like twice in each paragraph.

[David Selig]

I don't think poor taste in literature has anything to do with it (as it would indicate I have poor taste in literature ;) ). I praise Martin for Cat's character - few writers can write such realistic characters in a fantasy, and if I'm feeling Cat's pain then he's succeeded somewhere. But it does get a little heavy and tiresome sometimes, and it comes across as odd when all of the other characters who suffer - and often worse than Cat - manage to have moments of happiness and laughter in their chapters.

Cat has always struck me as a character who might be interesting analyse, but not so much to read.

But that's not most people who hate her character complain about, at least on this board. Sure, there are people who find her boring, just like with every character. Or some who think her chapters are too depressing. But those aren't the main sources of the vitriol, not by a long shot.

[Broken Fox]

Alright, you win. We hate her because she's a woman.

[protar]

But that's not most people who hate her character complain about, at least on this board. Sure, there are people who find her boring, just like with every character. Or some who think her chapters are too depressing. But those aren't the main sources of the vitriol, not by a long shot.

Sure but those things exacerbate the dislike. Charisma goes a long way to making characters sympathetic and Cat has little of it. And so far as I can tell the main source of vitriol directed at Catelyn are based on her poor decisions which contributed to the war of the 5 kings which has nothing to do with her being a woman and is partially justified.

People also dislike her for what she said to Jon in AGOT, and while that is connected to her role as a parent and refusing to act as Jon's parent this is not sexist either. What Cat says was incredibly cruel. Those who claim she was abusive to Jon are not being sexist, they are simply misinterpreting that comment as representing her day-to-day treatment of Jon and this would be the case had Cat been a guy.

I'm sure there are more than a few sexists hating Cat and other female characters for that reason, but the main sources of dislike have nothing whatsoever to do with her gender and so these accusations of sexism - even just generalised accusations - are ridiculous.

[isiman]

but Dany promised to make an alliance with Dorne regardless of whether she married him, and she hinted that he may ride a dragon.

Where she did that?

Dany actually admited to Quentyn that she may never even arrive in Westeros, so how coud she promise an alliance with Dorne?Also, that doesn't really make much sense; her marriage to Quentyn is the price she has to pay for Dorne, an alliance that doesn't come for free, so she is no position to promise anything.

LOL. It's true. Audiences find it easier to empathise with male characters. One only needs to look at the hate for characters such as Skyler White, Lori Grimes and Catelyn Stark to understand that.

Maybe because those characters are really bad written characters?Especially Lori and TV Catelyn.

Between, Skyler White is no longer hated, considering the stuff she has to deal with WW in last season.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Nonsense. Tyrion, Jaime and Stannis say, do and think 100 times more terrible things than Catelyn yet they are way more popular.

That's because Tyrion and Jaime are charming, witty and funny(Stannis is unintentionally hilarious) while Catelyn is a Debbie Downer(although she has every right to be so).

To add fuel to this already derailed discussion, I will add that from what I've seen, female characters in TV and literature generally tend to be held to a higher standard than males, where immorality from a female has a more negative reception than immorality displayed by a male character. This isn't the case for every female character, but it's a recurring trend I've seen(Skyler White being a notable example).

[Cruella]

But it does get a little heavy and tiresome sometimes, and it comes across as odd when all of the other characters who suffer - and often worse than Cat - manage to have moments of happiness and laughter in their chapters.

Yes, but how do people enjoy Dostoevsky and Graham Greene then, for example? Those books aren't filled with happy-go-lucky people.

will add that from what I've seen, female characters in TV and literature generally tend to be held to a higher standard than males,

Absolutely. That's where sexism comes in.

[protar]

Yes, but how do people enjoy Dostoevsky and Graham Greene then, for example? Those books aren't filled with happy-go-lucky people.

Well the people who read depressing books are probably those who enjoyed Cat's chapters more. I never said no one could possibly like her chapters because they're sad, just that I personally wasn't two keen on 2 books of Cat moping about and that a lot of others probably share my feelings.

I'd say one of the stronger points about ASOIAF is that Martin can write such a crushingly depressing story and still have you laughing and fist-pumping and generally still having hope in humanity.

[PatrickStormborn]

Someone said this, so yeah, I think I had a reason to write that post

Is there a valid reason why Skyler White is the most hated character on Breaking Bad - a show about drug dealers and murderers (neither of which describes Skyler)?

Is there a valid reason why Andrea and Lori are the most hated characters on The Walking Dead?

Is there a valid reason why Catelyn was (and still is in many respects) one of the most hated characters in ASOIAF?

Is there a valid reason why Sansa is one of the most hated characters in ASOIAF?

I hope you've noticed the pattern with my questions. It's not about the characters being disliked or even hated, it's about the extreme frequency and intensity of the hatred they receive.

I think most people who don't like Cat dislike her because they find her dull. Of all the characters she's the most like a normal, real person and she's also incredibly depressing. Obviously she has good reason to be, and yet the Stark children go through the same if not worse then her and yet manage to have moments of happiness and levity in their chapters. Also a lot of Cat's chapters in COK and SOS are just her acting like a fly on the Wall, observing rather than acting.

When was the last time any of the Stark children were happy?! By the end of ACoK, Arya is a seriously traumatised child soldier and cold-blooded killer. By half-way through ASoS Sansa is incredibly alone and realises she can't trust anyone.

I tried to find it by looking for "daario" in the ebook version. I didnt, but man, you wont believe how many times she mentions him. Its like twice in each paragraph.

You didn't find it because the passage doesn't exist.

I don't understand the problem with Dany mentioning Daario frequently? She's quite clearly suffering from severe depression; Daario is her coping mechanism.

I'll use myself as an example, I don't discriminate between male and female characters, I just care if I like them or not. For instance, Skyler White is one of my favorite characters in Breaking Bad, but I found some of her actions to be pretty hypocritical in Season 3 where she:

has sex with Ted after Walt tells her about selling meth

even though he is basically doing the same thing that Walt is doing, different actions, but identical intentions. I mean I don't think that she should've automatically forgiven Walt and then made-up and lived happily ever after, because Walt was wrong as well, he lied to her far too much, but I thought that she would've understood why he did what he did.

For me that was Skyler's defining moment and it pushed her into being one of my favourite characters ever.

Walt puts her into a situation where she can't defy him. She's compromised, and she does not want to destroy her family. But she doesn't want to be Walt's wife (or, as she later says, his hostage). So she submits... but still rebels against him.

It's such a wonderful, powerful, liberating moment for her.

Where she did that?

Dany actually admited to Quentyn that she may never even arrive in Westeros, so how coud she promise an alliance with Dorne?Also, that doesn't really make much sense; her marriage to Quentyn is the price she has to pay for Dorne, an alliance that doesn't come for free, so she is no position to promise anything.

She shows him the dragons, promises that her marriage does not need to be the end of their alliance, and tells him that the dragon has three heads.

But then she realises that he's not a dragon and could never be one of the heads she is looking for.

Maybe because those characters are really bad written characters?Especially Lori and TV Catelyn.

Between, Skyler White is no longer hated, considering the stuff she has to deal with WW in last season.

I'm talking specifically about book Catelyn, who is far more hated than TV Catelyn, so clearly your point is not correct.

And I'm not sure where you got that impression about Skyler, but from what I can tell the hate for her may have actually INCREASED...

Particularly after the incredibly badass "What are you waiting for?" "For the cancer to come back."