Americanisms

[blood of the dragoon]

Martin is an American and more than likely writes using American spelling: color, analyze and center. However, editors adapt the language for the countries the books are sold in so the spelling in a book bought in Britain will have colour, analyse and centre. Word selection, such as cunt, etc. doesn't get adapted so it might not follow local language conventions.

British books published in America don't get 'corrected' like this.

[blood of the dragoon]

Not to mention that Grey Wind is named 'Grey' and since it's a proper noun, they wouldn't have changed it and Martin as an American really would have been expected to use Gray rather than Grey.

Honestly, i always forget which one I'm 'supposed' to use, and so it's kind of random which i will use. I suppose i use grey more, which is against my generally American habits.

[Dany Girl]

Yes, this! In Britain I've never heard 'cunt' used on a woman, and I first came across it in American English when McNulty calls his wife one in The Wire. So, Americans, does it usually refer to a woman in the US then?

here in America a lot of men use it on women to try to demean us or make us feel almost ashamed of our gender. Personally I don't take offense since only men trying to get in my pants that have failed have called me a cunt. Really using genitalia as an attack has always seemed funny to me. You call me a cunt because I won't let you play with mine? Well, good luck getting my pants now!

[Mad Monkey]

here in America a lot of men use it on women to try to demean us or make us feel almost ashamed of our gender. Personally I don't take offense since only men trying to get in my pants that have failed have called me a cunt. Really using genitalia as an attack has always seemed funny to me. You call me a cunt because I won't let you play with mine? Well, good luck getting my pants now!

Doesn't Asha Greyjoy make this same point in the books?? :D

Anyway, the reason Americans find it offensive is the same logic behind how using the word "gay" to mean something bad is offensive. If you're using something associated with women as a general insult, it kind of implies (in theory) that you think there's something wrong with being a woman. Just like how if you use the word "gay" to mean "stupid" it kind of implies that you think that there is something wrong with being gay.

[Pharnavaziani]

I think George said somewhere that it's similar size wise to South America - it's usually defined as that big by most users on the board so presumably it is so. If I'm honest though, I don't think the USA has a wider variety of climates than anywhere else in the world. True, it's large but to say this makes it more influential is to assume that Westeros is based only on separate countries, ignoring that it might be based on a region surmising of multiple countries. For instance, it's only a distance of a few hundred miles between freezing Germany and sunny, sunny Italy. Hell, here in England we get lows of - 10, -15 degrees C and highs of 30C.

This is my point: Germany and Italy are separate countries. Germany is about half the size of the State of Texas, whose climate is very, very different than that of Maine, or the Dakotas, etc., - far more so than those between European countries (speaking highly generally here).

The USA was, for a very brief time, comprised of 13 nominally separate and allied countries as well - and most US states are the size of small countries elsewhere. For scale, the USA, at roughly 10 million square kilometers, is almost the exact size of the continent of Europe and more than half the size of South America / Westeros. As you point out, none of the regions of Europe is so thoroughly defined by a single, very distinct climate as, say, Dorne or the North are. That's what I see as an American influence - the combination of large, nation-sized zones with wildly different climates is, while not uniquely American, something Americans are more likely to expect from a fictional country.

Please note that I'm in no way denigrating the diversity of climates found in other countries or on other continents - I'm very specifically noting that few other countries of comparable size have such wildly, fundamentally different climates. This is just me - when I look at the Seven Kingdoms and see a continent-sized country bordered mostly by the sea, straddling a wide variety of isolated climates, I see America if America's coastline looked like Scotland. Maybe I'm projecting - but then, we are talking about maps :)

[Tommens Cat]

How very Foucaultian.

Think you ;)

[mcb]

No, but there aren't actually that many that have such a diversity of expansive, unique climates. The USA doesn't just have warm deserts, wet rainforests, sweeping plains, towering mountains, intricate wetlands, and large arboreal areas - it has areas of the country dominated by any one of these, themselves the size of other countries.

Middle Earth is not a country. Westeros is a continent almost exclusively taken up by a single country, itself a amalgamation of nearly-equal sub-nations, with a history of ethnic migration from the East displacing native populations, but also integrating with and retaining certain indigenous customs. Of the other continent-sized countries in the real world, few have quite the same wild swings between different climates. For me, only the USA and China come to mind. I am personally pretty convinced that Westerosi geography is heavily influenced by North America in general, the USA in particular.

How to break it to you... if that's the only example that comes to your mind, it's not GRRM who's USA-centric here. There were numerous geographically vast empires, incorporating under one rule many different peoples. Persian, Macedonian, Roman, Mongol, Russian. Hell, even Charlemagne's rule stretched from the sunny Italy to cool shores of the North Sea.

And as for that "ethnic migration displacing local population" - do you seriously think that's anything distinctive? That's what happened pretty much everywhere across Europe (for starters), and the Andal invasion looks more similar to the Anglo-Saxon settlement than to British colonies in North America.

But I give you one point - Westeros is indeed on the west side of map.

Please note that I'm in no way denigrating the diversity of climates found in other countries or on other continents - I'm very specifically noting that few other countries of comparable size have such wildly, fundamentally different climates. This is just me - when I look at the Seven Kingdoms and see a continent-sized country bordered mostly by the sea, straddling a wide variety of isolated climates, I see America if America's coastline looked like Scotland.

Which is weird, considering that the United States don't cover even half of North America.

[Dany Girl]

British books published in America don't get 'corrected' like this.

they actually do. Harry Potter for example, Britain had the Philosopher's stone, American had Sorcerer's stone. The changes may not be as noticeable to Americans as Brits since our country is so large with many varieties of words being changed due to regional cultures. Here in Northern California we use hella as a substitut for very or a lot, most people in other parts of the country or state even thini it's weird. My cousins in Michigan for example hate it.

[the trees have eyes]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, thanks. I wasn't sure if there was still a residual usage in the UK.

I can tell you I am 6 foot 2 inches but I can't tell you how many metres that is without checking Google (about 2). But if we are referring to distance rather that say height we will use miles and then estimate metres for shorter walking distances. No one really uses yards and feet for distance any more.

[mcb]

British books published in America don't get 'corrected' like this.

[cough]Sorcerer's Stone[cough]

[Dany Girl]

Doesn't Asha Greyjoy make this same point in the books?? :D

Anyway, the reason Americans find it offensive is the same logic behind how using the word "gay" to mean something bad is offensive. If you're using something associated with women as a general insult, it kind of implies (in theory) that you think there's something wrong with being a woman. Just like how if you use the word "gay" to mean "stupid" it kind of implies that you think that there is something wrong with being gay.

yes she does and when she said that I knew she was a bad ass. I think it's ridiculous how men will use cunt, bitch, and gay as insults. There really aren't any gender based insults for men. Dick? Not that bad. Ass/ ass hole are gender neutral, and douche/ douche bag is from a female hygiene product, again inferring somehow it's shameful to be a female.

[Castellan]

As an Englishman, I find it cool how the books are based partly on my country's history, and was a little surprised they are written by an American. Which is probably a bit harsh, but also maybe a compliment that his culture hasn't seeped in. The only thing that has jarred me is quite minor and really random- the use of the word cunt in a sexist way, as notably monologued about by Asha. In Britain, it's mainly used against men, hence it being a little less tabboo. Of course there's no reason Westeros couldn't share that use of language, it just struck me as very "other side of the Atlantic". Any other examples?

Hmmm .... cunt.... That's partly true about cunt in Australia I think - often used of men, but can be used of women too. To refer to a man as a cunt means they are obnoxious/disgusting in the extreme whereas to call a man a prick means they are arrogant and unhelpful. Young people/children might be called little cunts which implies they are obnoxious/annoying in the way self centred young people are.

To refer to a woman as a cunt on the other hand simply points out that she is nothing but a woman I think, eg stupid cunt, so it fits with the use in the show. It might be said directly to a woman as a total attack type insult but luckily I haven't heard it. I can imagine someone in a situation like Asha's (eg in the army with men!) might cop it all the time. Of course many people go their whole lives without using one of these words.

Men using it referring to another man is the most common.

[Pharnavaziani]

How to break it to you... if that's the only example that comes to your mind, it's not GRRM who's USA-centric here. There were numerous geographically vast empires, incorporating under one rule many different peoples. Persian, Macedonian, Roman, Mongol, Russian. Hell, even Charlemagne's rule stretched from the sunny Italy to cool shores of the North Sea.

I don't know if this was intentional, but this came off as condescending and hurtful. I'm quite aware of world history - I was specifically making note of modern countries because the influence I'm arguing for is an unconscious one due to GRRM's own nationality (and mine). You seem to be thinking about conscious parallels he might have inserted into his book - I'm arguing this is the product of a deeper bias.

Taking things point-by-point:

- Persian and Alexandrian empires have quite a lot of diversity: steppes, mountains, deserts, coastal regions, rainforest. A fair parallel, and at their maximum extent a comparable area

- Roman Empire: defined by the Mediterranean, with strips of land around the entire sea and complete conquest of France, the Iberian peninsula, Anatolia, etc.,. Never as big as the USA, and does not have multiple geographically contiguous regions dominated by a single, distinct climate different from the others.

- Mongol: biggest empire in world history, unless you count the USSR as an empire. Ultimately didn't have staying power though. Had a major role in the development of the world economy and world history, but to my knowledge a limited role in influencing the kind of stories GRRM seems to have consciously referenced.

- Russia: I specifically mentioned this, so I'm rather miffed it even got thrown in. Yes, Russia is big. But I don't agree that Russia's sub-climates are as diverse the USA: cold deserts, tundra, steppes, mountains, temperate coasts and temperate plains are impressive, but Westeros has more than those.

Dorne is not Italy. Dorne is full of sand, and the heat is quite dangerous without protection. It's a fairly conventional warm desert, and one significantly bigger than you'd find in Europe.

Finally, the US and the 7 Kingdoms share other things that these empires don't. Relative security due to the oceans - Westeros has one land border, the USA two. Of the great empires in history, few had both contiguous geography and such fantastic natural borders.

None of these things is proof, but I'm not trying to prove anything. When I see, oh, the way the Westerlands are defined by mountains full of valuable metals (while the mountains to the east lack such mineral wealth), I go "hmm...perhaps he thought of this in part because, as an American, the West is where he culturally expected to find mountains with valuable minerals. You don't need to be persuaded - I don't even know how much of this I actually believe myself. But please don't look down on me for considering it, or - for that matter - for wanting to find a positive American influence in the series.

And as for that "ethnic migration displacing local population" - do you seriously think that's anything distinctive? That's what happened pretty much everywhere across Europe (for starters), and the Andal invasion looks more similar to the Anglo-Saxon settlement than to British colonies in North America.

But I give you one point - Westeros is indeed on the west side of map.

I have not made any cultural assumptions about you individually in this discussion. I feel like you may be making an unfair one about me.

Yes, thank you for pointing out that ethnic displacement is a pretty universal part of human history. Being so recent and so dramatic in American history does add a certain influence, I think, to our storytelling. If the Anglo-Saxon invasion of the UK is the most recent invasion of England, I'd argue that Americans are more likely to dwell on permanent invasions - our own near-genocidal campaign ended [arguably] barely a century ago. I also specifically mentioned the invasions in the context of the sea - which applies equally well to both scenarios. I'd also like to point out the crossing - and the smashing - Arm of Dorne strikes me as being strongly influenced by the Bering Sea Land bridge between North America and Eurasia.

[sunworshipper]

As an Englishman, I find it cool how the books are based partly on my country's history, and was a little surprised they are written by an American. Which is probably a bit harsh, but also maybe a compliment that his culture hasn't seeped in. The only thing that has jarred me is quite minor and really random- the use of the word cunt in a sexist way, as notably monologued about by Asha. In Britain, it's mainly used against men, hence it being a little less tabboo. Of course there's no reason Westeros couldn't share that use of language, it just struck me as very "other side of the Atlantic". Any other examples?

I don't know if it's still true but when I was a kid in school, we were taught English history during the Middle Ages as if it were our own history, not that of some foreign country. Because you know (at least from my Anglo-Saxon heritage), it is true. Most of the descendants of medieval Englishmen stayed in England but many emigrated overseas. So I take it quite naturally that an American looking back for inspiration would use the events like War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War and the personalities of various English kings.

[Dany Girl]

I don't know if it's still true but when I was a kid in school, we were taught English history during the Middle Ages as if it were our own history, not that of some foreign country. Because you know (at least from my Anglo-Saxon heritage), it is true. Most of the descendants of medieval Englishmen stayed in England but many emigrated overseas. So I take it quite naturally that an American looking back for inspiration would use the events like War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War and the personalities of various English kings.

this was true for me too. Many people overseas tend to discount that America is a nation made up of a mod podge if other countries. England being one of our biggest building blocks as America as we see it now was an English colony. Midevil England was as much many of our ancestors as people still living there. There was no midevil American to base a story like this on, just native tribes that seem to serve as inspiration for other societies in their world, mainly the Dothraki, which to me read as native American meets Mongolian but maybe more brutal.

[blood of the dragoon]

[cough]Sorcerer's Stone[cough]

Hmmm. Didn't know about that. But i come to learn, not pontificate, so thanks.

Why change 'philosopher' to 'sorcerer' though? I must be missing something.

[Pharnavaziani]

this was true for me too. Many people overseas tend to discount that America is a nation made up of a mod podge if other countries. England being one of our biggest building blocks as America as we see it now was an English colony. Midevil England was as much many of our ancestors as people still living there. There was no midevil American to base a story like this on, just native tribes that seem to serve as inspiration for other societies in their world, mainly the Dothraki, which to me read as native American meets Mongolian but maybe more brutal.

ummmmmmm..............

This made me cringe. It's really kinda problematic to lump all of the indigenous peoples of this continent into a single culture or group - especially when the image of the "stereotypical Indian" is one pretty much unique to the post-Columbian era (horses, anyone?)

Frankly, I'd actually really like to see a society in an Aztec or Incan mould (or, for that matter, inspired by the Dine [Navajo] people and their Puebloan enemies - all very interesting and very different societies). Actually, I think that an Iroquois-like group might fit into a technologically/aesthetically 'Medieval' setting quite well.

I'm pretty young, and have had a pretty poor education in the classics, including English / Medieval history. My primary history education focused on Greco-Roman times; Pre-Columbian through contemporary history; and I guess 20th century world history. GRRM is definitely from a generation that would've received more of a Eurocentric education and so the predominantly European influence on his writing makes sense; beyond that, though, you're quite right to point out that as a people we definitely have a kinda rosy whistfulness about Medieval Europe. That's kinda major underpinning of the genre, methinks. I wonder if that romanticism is as common on the Continent....

[Summah]

I don't know if it's still true but when I was a kid in school, we were taught English history during the Middle Ages as if it were our own history, not that of some foreign country. Because you know (at least from my Anglo-Saxon heritage), it is true. Most of the descendants of medieval Englishmen stayed in England but many emigrated overseas. So I take it quite naturally that an American looking back for inspiration would use the events like War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War and the personalities of various English kings.

It was not like that when I was in school. We learned a little English history, but except for stuff relating to American colonization and the revolution there was not much detail. I also never felt that I was learning or being taught about Our own (as Americans) history when learning about England of the Middle Ages or at all really. As a disclaimer, I am not of English (or any other part of the UK or Ireland) descent, if there's any in there it's so far back no one knows about it anymore. I think most of my history teachers were white, but whether any of them had much Anglo-Saxon heritage I have no idea.

[Dany Girl]

ummmmmmm..............

This made me cringe. It's really kinda problematic to lump all of the indigenous peoples of this continent into a single culture or group - especially when the image of the "stereotypical Indian" is one pretty much unique to the post-Columbian era (horses, anyone?)

Frankly, I'd actually really like to see a society in an Aztec or Incan mould (or, for that matter, inspired by the Dine [Navajo] people and their Puebloan enemies - all very interesting and very different societies). Actually, I think that an Iroquois-like group might fit into a technologically/aesthetically 'Medieval' setting quite well.

I didn't say exact, just influenced. The reason I say that is because of the native Americans tendency to move around a lot, following the buffalo herds and other factors such as weather coming into play. Also the Dothraki have "wise women" like many tribes had. They cannot go to war until they get blessing from their wise ones, who get it from the gods/ancestors.

I'm not too educated on ancient Mongolian culture other than the stories of them being war lords that took slaves and were pretty blood thirsty. The ancient Chinese built the Wall of China to protect themselves from the hords of Mongolians. As I said, this is pretty much the extent of my knowledge of their society.

So again, influenced, not a carbon copy of either

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Another American theme in these books is eating way too much without getting the corresponding exercise...