Daenerys as a ruler?

[Albertine]

The really awesome thing about Dany is that she's willing to try everything, and that her number one goal is to do a good job. I respect and admire that about her.

Even the fighting pits--she's so convinced that they're wrong, a violation of her principles, but she lets the Meereenese and the fighters speak their minds. She listens to what they say. She considers the possibility that she's wrong and attends the first fights, so she knows first-hand what is going on.

Dany makes so many mistakes in Meereen. But on a day to day level, she's smart and careful and observant. She's not too proud to see when she's wrong, or take it as an insult when people disagree with her.

These are really tremendous qualities & I just hope she doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. She's got a lot of learning to do still.

[mrunderhill]

True, which is my point exactly. His reputation alone can make problems go away. A good ruler needs either love of the people or a reputation like Tywin's. Danny tried being loved but was too naive to understand that Meereen would always hate her( the nobility anyways)

Of course she has completely come and usurped the throne. Has no history, no connection and no affiliation with the city. She is just an invader, taking over, with no attempt at justifying her rule. Quite frankly it was a mistake to ever stay in Meereen.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Of course she has completely come and usurped the throne. Has no history, no connection and no affiliation with the city. She is just an invader, taking over, with no attempt at justifying her rule. Quite frankly it was a mistake to ever stay in Meereen.

I don't think staying in Mereen in general was bad. I think she probably should have left after the fighting pits situation.

[Albertine]

I'm talking about ruling a kingdom, not being a good parent.

You made two points. One was ruling the kingdom successfully, the other was about restoring House Lannister.

I moved past the first point quickly, because I don't feel we have enough information. Tywin's term as Hand was actually a terrible one for the country--and his 20 years were followed, what a shocker, by a change in dynasty, because Tywin's 'solutions' don't long outlast him--but it's hard to figure out how much blame belongs to Tywin and how much to Aerys. It's convenient that he has a terrible King to distract from anything he might have done wrong.

In any case, in a previous post I point out that Tywin makes plenty of terrible decisions politically, during the time we actually see him in charge. He is very effective...in the short term. But his decisions go sour if given time to play out. (See: Janos Slynt & Night's Watch, Freys dropping like flies, Arya the vengeance killer, Doran of the long memory).

But your point about House Lannister does, in fact, touch on whether or not he's a good parent. Because if his goal was to restore the house, he did a terrible job. He got his own heir, Jaime, disinherited because he couldn't get along with the king. He disinherited Tyrion for not being pretty enough, basically, which left him with Cersei...whose incest weakens the new dynasty she should have been founding, who finishes the last book on a walk of shame.

That's the current state of House Lannister. It's a despised laughingstock, just as Tywin dreaded. And he bears a lot of responsibility for it.

[mrunderhill]

I don't think staying in Mereen in general was bad. I think she probably should have left after the fighting pits situation.

I don't see anyway she could have subdued the city apart from extreme brutality, which she was reluctant to do and would take away any moral argument she tried to convince herself she had. Aegon was much, much more sensible with his conquest and he was prepared to burn his enemies to a crisp with 3 huge dragons.

[Fauch]

The really awesome thing about Dany is that she's willing to try everything, and that her number one goal is to do a good job. I respect and admire that about her.

Even the fighting pits--she's so convinced that they're wrong, a violation of her principles, but she lets the Meereenese and the fighters speak their minds. She listens to what they say. She considers the possibility that she's wrong and attends the first fights, so she knows first-hand what is going on.

Dany makes so many mistakes in Meereen. But on a day to day level, she's smart and careful and observant. She's not too proud to see when she's wrong, or take it as an insult when people disagree with her.

These are really tremendous qualities & I just hope she doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. She's got a lot of learning to do still.

Very good post, I agree with most of what you said.

Dany is obviously still inexperienced, but I feel most of her critics here usually attack her for things she couldn't have known beforehand. Like the Mirri Maz Duur situation.

[mrunderhill]

Very good post, I agree with most of what you said.

Dany is obviously still inexperienced, but I feel most of her critics here usually attack her for things she couldn't have known beforehand. Like the Mirri Maz Duur situation.

As pointed out with MMD, Drogo's bloodriders repeatedly warned her against trusting the woman. Then for the blood magic, she was warned repeatedly about this. She even had heard some bad stories about the Maegi. This is before we even taken into account Drogo had just sacked her city and possibly killed several of her relatives.

[Night'sQueen]

Dany as a ruler would be something like a mix of Stannis and Joffrey.

Really? I don't think so at all. To me that says she is spoiled and sadistic (Joffrey) as well as hypocritical and unyielding (Stannis). Or were you trying to say a mix of good and bad, rather than bad and worse? Lol. You'll have to clarify because now I'm dying to know.

Danaerys innately possesses some key elements of a good ruler that simply cannot be taught. She is compassionate and fair. And she inspires people to follow her like no other character in the series. A leader with no followers is, well, useless.

On the downside, Dany is uneducated in general, lacks important knowledge of history which she should have in order to made good decisions in the future, and she does not have strong advisors. All rulers need a strong team of advisors around them. I know, I know, "she won't listen..." I think she will if someone (Tyrion) who isn't afraid to speak truth to power comes along. The qualities she lacks can be learned and bolstered by having the right people around her.

Also, I do not get where all the claims of madness are coming from. Wasn't part of the point of Viserys being in the story to demonstrate that *he* had the madness? Dany doesn't have it and many past Targs did not suffer from it. It's just bizarre to me that so many users of this forum think Targ = madness.

Lastly, when everyone criticizes Dany's storyline in Slaver's Bay, I think what they should be criticizing is the writing/editing that brought an amazing arc to a screeching and painfully boring halt. I realize this is blasphemy so I am running away now... :leaving:

[Albertine]

The three POV characters I think do the best at ruling are Jon, Tyrion, and Dany. I think all three are capable, and could do a good job, but they've had SUCH different apprenticeships.

Jon grew up with Ned Stark, and he grew up as an agemate to Robb, so he got all of Ned Stark's best advice about how to rule. And Ned Stark was a good Lord of Winterfell. He couldn't cut it in King's Landing, but he understood his own territory and how to do right by his people. And then Jon spends a good amount of time with Mormont at the wall, another really excellent leader of men. Jon has years to absorb all these wonderful lessons, but he's not well equipped to understand the sort of infighting and revolt that causes him so much trouble.

Tyrion would have been one step ahead of the Night's Watch betrayal at the end of ADWD, because betrayal is what he understands best. He grew up in a nest of vipers and he's eminently capable of playing politics, dodging knives in the back, unclogging sewers both literal and metaphorical. But Tyrion has always been terrified of striking out on his own, and he doesn't have a clear concept of who he is or what he wants when he's not serving the Lannister cause.

Whereas that's what Dany's struggled to understand. Who she is, what she wants, what she'll suffer and sacrifice in order to obtain it. Unlike Jon, she didn't have any wise mentors. She had Viserys. Unlike Tyrion, she grew up on the run, without any 'sharp lessons' in politics. She has to learn from expereince what they were taught, and she learns the hard way. But she's the only one of the three who really understands what it's like to be hungry, poor, desperate. To be sold and displaced. Because she rises up from the bottom, she knows what it's like to stand on every rung of the ladder going up.

They've all got good qualities. They can all fill in the gaps. But they start out with different advantages--Dany the fewest of all, and she's making up for it pretty well.

[The Witch Queen of Angmar]

As far as leadership goes, at the end of the day Dany is still a kid and has a hell of a lot to learn. Personally, she irritates me because she thinks she is an all grown up just because she was married and was pregnant once. I feel that her growth stopped after she rebelled against Viserys and perhaps even got a little bit too big for her boots. I pity her and all, I mean one must afford her compliments on dealing with certain matters such as slavery very humanly and decently. This, however does not make her a good ruler. Too much Kindness can also be affiliated to the other extreme of too much cruelty; either one loses you respect and will backfire eventually. I'm not saying Viserys had any right to treat her that way, but she was totally chilled to ignore the Dothraki flat when they implored her not to take on MMD, but she was chilled allowing her husband to kill her brother that way. So Viserys broke a Dothraki rule and paid with it for her life. She obviously got such a big head that she thought she was above any such laws and such, allowing MMD to "heal" her last family. Say what you like, but I think that Viserys was actually good to Dany the bulk of her short life and I don't think he was mad persay as much as desperate and degraded and downtrodden, which will result in anyone's bitter attitude, building up an ego to shield themselves from the harsh reality. Viserys was just a loser and I feel sorry for the poor fool. Dany was stupid for allowing them to kill him. It was a drunken moment and all the needed to be done was to remove his weapon, knock him out and hope for the best. I really think that she grew more as a person with her brother's abuse as weird as that sounds. It gave her something to prove for all the right reasons, but when she aided in his death (which is kinslaying or at least aid to murder) she became fat headed and way to full of it (teenagers usually do when given a boost in ego) I understand that she loved Drogo, we all did, but she kind of broke the first law of leading: the wants and needs of your people come way before yours, even at the expense of innocents, cruel as it sounds. As I said, she's still a kid and she doesn't know half much about her home land at all. I just don't think that at this point in her life she is ready to take up the mantel of her forebares. I'm not saying she won't ever be a good leader, just not now. I still think that the reason she is struggling so much in general, is not because she is young and stupid, but instead because she actually hasn't set a goal and stuck to it. Just go to Westeros and stop making pitstops, child. It would be way easier to stop slavery if you actually had some important standing, official important standing. Sentimentality can be a grave mistake as well as overconfident decisions. Hope she just let's go of the idea that she's a woman completely grown just because she's sacked some cities, ruled for less than a year, been married and been pregnant. She's grown physically and mentally, but emotionally she is not keeping up.

[Albertine]

Lastly, when everyone criticizes Dany's storyline in Slaver's Bay, I think what they should be criticizing is the writing/editing that brought an amazing arc to a screeching and painfully boring halt. I realize this is blasphemy so I am running away now... :leaving:

100% agree with this.

I think Dany is a good listener, too.

[repbypop]

I feel people are way too harsh on Dany here. Stupid decisions without any real gain? Name one character that hasn't, except for maybe Jon, for whom everything falls into place.

Killing all the masters? Not even Tywin Lannister would have taken that avenue. Would that have really brought "peace" anyway? If you kill the masters, there will be new ones. I guess you would have had her kill also every uncle, every son and every daughter, and everyone else who might look for revenge.

Time and History have proven over and over again that you cannot win a war against the population. Marriage was the most logical choice.

Don't think the population was for slavery. If Dany want to rule Mereen and bring peace to this city, the first thing to do is to legislate. She should've create supreme laws that prohibit Slavery, and give equal rights to all Meereen Citizen. After that, create a court of justice, and gave the brazen beast and the shavepate the duty to enforce the law. The punishment for practicing slavery or abuse on a other citizen against his will would be dead, Disinheritance or emprisonnement depending on the gravity of the act. And she should've find a master of whispers like Varys who would give her insight on her ennemies, and kill them in a secretive way. And she would've had find a heir for the Throne of Meereen, adopt him and prepare him for the day she will leave the city. But instead of that, she's sit all day on her ass, at drinking and eating with her ennemies, and thinking about Daario. Even if she wouldn't have time to accomplish all this during her reign, just tried would've been good.

[Fauch]

As pointed out with MMD, Drogo's bloodriders repeatedly warned her against trusting the woman. Then for the blood magic, she was warned repeatedly about this. She even had heard some bad stories about the Maegi. This is before we even taken into account Drogo had just sacked her city and possibly killed several of her relatives.

Yes, so? She is warned by Dothraki who aren't exactly what I would call knowledable about healing. She also heard more than enough bad stories about the Dothraki, does this mean she shouldn't have trusted them either? Blood magic....yes. It is common that for magic in such stories there is also a price to pay. She possibly couldn't have known what would happen.

For all we know Drogo dies because he rips that poultice off.

[Fauch]

double post

[Albertine]

Don't think the population was for slavery. If Dany want to rule Mereen and bring peace to this city, the first thing to do is to legislate. She should've create supreme laws that prohibit Slavery, and give equal rights to all Meereen Citizen. After that, create a court of justice, and gave the brazen beast and the shavepate the duty to enforce the law.

She did these things. Hence the freed slaves who were starting businesses, the disinherited masters who were digging ditches.

The court of justice was her--that's why people came to her every morning with their complaints.

And she created a local army to enforce the laws.

I agree she ought to have been working on an exit plan rather than planning a wedding. But she wanted to stay in Meereen long enough to see the olive trees bear fruit--so almost a decade.

The problem is that Dany was planning her whole life, whereas GRR Martin is writing a book that takes place over a much shorter time frame. She thought she had time that, alas, the author could not grant her.

[Fauch]

Sitting on your ass all day and drinking/eating with people you don't particularily like is one of the duties of a queen. It is much the same in Westeros, except that Robert had Ned deal with all of this while he went hunting.

As for Daario...yes I somewhat agree, he is one of her weaknesses. I am willing to forgive her for Daario though, just like I can forgive Catelyn for freeing Jaime. Every character has SOME traits that are dislikable. Dany is after all a young girl, and young girls tend to act stupid when around attractive men.

[mrunderhill]

Yes, so? She is warned by Dothraki who aren't exactly what I would call knowledable about healing. She also heard more than enough bad stories about the Dothraki, does this mean she shouldn't have trusted them either? Blood magic....yes. It is common that for magic in such stories there is also a price to pay. She possibly couldn't have known what would happen.

For all we know Drogo dies because he rips that poultice off.

Yes she should have trusted the Dothraki, because they know about healing wounds. They have their eunuchs and Drogo has been injured many times before. Drogo's life is bound to his bloodriders and why trust a woman, whose city you have just sacked?

[Broken Fox]

Dany's problem is her idealistic/delusional thinking usually overrides logic and facts. It's a Targaryen thing.

[Fauch]

Yes she should have trusted the Dothraki, because they know about healing wounds. They have their eunuchs and Drogo has been injured many times before. Drogo's life is bound to his bloodriders and why trust a woman, whose city you have just sacked?

MMD actually did give Drogo a healing poultice. We, the readers, are led to believe this would have worked perfectly fine, if Drogo didn't rip it off.

Chances are, that Drogos bloodriders don't know shit about healing. The eunuchs might, but there is no single hint dropped in the book that suggests that the eunuchs would have saved Drogo. Dany takes her chances here, and loses, yet, more likely than not Drogo beyond saving at this point anyway.

Dany pays the price as in losing her son, not losing Drogo.

[mrunderhill]

MMD actually did give Drogo a healing poultice. We, the readers, are led to believe this would have worked perfectly fine, if Drogo didn't rip it off.

Chances are, that Drogos bloodriders don't know shit about healing. The eunuchs might, but there is no single hint dropped in the book that suggests that the eunuchs would have saved Drogo. Dany takes her chances here, and loses, yet, more likely than not Drogo beyond saving at this point anyway.

Dany pays the price as in losing her son, not losing Drogo.

We don't know what she gives him, but it was foolish to trust her. The bloodriders have seen Drogo injured before and know that the eunuchs have healed him. They know that the eunuchs have skill. This is the first battle that Dany has seen, the first time she has seen Drogo wounded and she presumes she knows better than warriors, who have seen a lifetime of battle.

I would say considering the eunuchs heal with fire and needle, they would have burnt out the infection and then sewed the wound shut, saving Drogo's life.