Daenerys as a ruler?

[mrunderhill]

...in the short term. But in the long term, if Dany had kept those kids close, if she'd continued to shower them with love and affection, she'd have found a bloodless way to win the war.

I really think that GRRM's worldbuilding in Meereen turned out to be shallow. Dany is the only character in the entire series we've seen integrate with a foreign culture. It's in her nature to be curious, and to learn. And GRRM half-heartedly shows us the process starting afresh in Meereen, with Dany spending a lot of time learning about the local religion from the Graces, taking local supporters as advisors, talking to all the petitioners who come to her every day.

She does try. But it's her against not just the city, but the whole region--every powerful person in all of Slaver's Bay--and the odds aren't great.

No it's unlikely they will take to her. The Ottoman empire is one example and they send children away to different parts of the empire. Keeping them in Meereen under a foreign ruler, would never allow them to accept Dany. The most likely scenario is she gets assassinated at some point We have already seen attempts on her life. Or her behaviour leads to allies coming in to finish her off. If it was not for the unexpected arrival of Victarion once again she would be dead.

If the odds aren't great she should have realised this before getting involved.

[Fauch]

Huh? Short stints?

The throne of the Holy Roman Empire was continuously occupied by the Habsburgs between 1438 and 1740

Not what I would call a short stint. But you are right, let's get back on topic :cheers:

[mrunderhill]

I don't think Dany knew it was an empty threat when she made it. She'd never taken child hostages before and probably fully intended to kill them if she had to. It wasn't until the moment of truth that she realized she'd never be able to do it.

And thank goodness too. Theon actually went through with killing the miller's boys and hasn't been able to live with himself since. Besides, I'm convinced if she HAD killed the kids, the very people calling her weak-willed now would be calling her a sociopathic child-murderer instead. Which is better?

Both are bad, but at least one is a stable ruler. Who would you rather have in charge Tywin or Dany? In a perfect world we would have a perfect ruler, but that is not the way the world is.

Dany has gone out of her way to wear their clothes, participate in their rituals, show respect to The Green Grace, take local advisers into her court, she even took a husband of the local blood. What more could she possibly do?

Plus, as Albertine keeps pointing out, the children she didn't kill could be key allies in the future, with the proper upringing.

That her plans DIDN'T WORK doesn't mean it was wrong to try.

It took her a long time to take a local husband and she did not research, who she should take. She has not converted to the local religion, she did not reopen the fighting pits, she had no thoughts about the economy or trade with local cities, she left Astophar in a mess.

Those children are not going to become allies with their parents in the same city fighting against her.

Every time you criticise a decision on this board, people claim it is due to hindsight. I am sorry, but at the time of these decisions, I thought she was being foolish. She was wrong to try things so quickly. Wrong to completely get rid of their form of government. Wrong to destroy their economy so quickly with no alternatives.

[Albertine]

Huh? Short stints?

Not what I would call a short stint. But you are right, let's get back on topic :cheers:

Which is 300 years, which is less than 400, and the Ottomans actually ruled from 1453 to 1918, so...actually 465 years. Much longer.

The Hapsburgs are impressive. But the Ottomans have them beat. And they succeeded, in part, by stealing little children & winning their loyalty.

[Nictarion]

Why are the Meereen ever going to accept Dany as the ruler? 400 years is not particularly impressive in world history when compared to other noble families.

Dany made a threat she was not prepared to keep and that makes you look weak and foolish. If you don't have the desire to do something then never make a threat. Dany knows nothing about the history of Meereen, the people the culture etc. She has not tried to integrate into their society. She comes across as a foreign ruler.

Not true. She married Hizdhar, dresses like one of them, allowed the fighting pits to re-open, allowed some of the slaves to sell themselves back into slavery if they wanted.

[mrunderhill]

Not true. She married Hizdhar, dresses like one of them, allowed the fighting pits to re-open, allowed some of the slaves to sell themselves back into slavery if they wanted.

How long did it take for her to do either? She baned these things, did not take a local husband and did not allow some of the slaves to sell them back until everything was falling apart.

She came in made drastic changes with no real thought about the long term, the economic safety the thoughts of the people etc and then found out things were collapsing and then began caving in making her look weak.

[Albertine]

Both are bad, but at least one is a stable ruler. Who would you rather have in charge Tywin or Dany? In a perfect world we would have a perfect ruler, but that is not the way the world is.

Are you kidding? I'd rather have Patchface as my King than Tywin.

It took her a long time to take a local husband and she did not research, who she should take. She has not converted to the local religion, she did not reopen the fighting pits, she had no thoughts about the economy or trade with local cities, she left Astophar in a mess.

Those children are not going to become allies with their parents in the same city fighting against her.

Every time you criticise a decision on this board, people claim it is due to hindsight. I am sorry, but at the time of these decisions, I thought she was being foolish. She was wrong to try things so quickly. Wrong to completely get rid of their form of government. Wrong to destroy their economy so quickly with no alternatives.

Wait...so she did things too slowly AND too quickly? It took her too long to take a husband, but then she rushed into it? What? (She did rush into it, this bugged the hell out of me, Hizdahr was a terrible choice, but at least I'm clear on what I think she did wrong)

With regard to the economy, the defeated Masters burned all the orchards. So she lost all the city's agriculture &, as they keep mentioning in the books, it takes years for olive trees to reach maturity.

We also know that the surrounding cities put an embargo on Meereen. They won't let traders in and out, so local manufacturers (like the weavers she frees) are having trouble. Which is why Dany is so eager to compromise with the foreign slavers, even though she hates them. For the good of Meereenese commerce.

But, really, if you think Tywin is the model of a good ruler, no wonder you hate Dany. He couldn't be more different from Dany, and Tywin is my personal idea of a nightmare tyrant. I think he sowed the seeds of discord near and far, and sought personal advantage at the realm's expense. Give me Dany any day.

[Fauch]

Drastic changes are always made when one tries to change any given society. I already pointed out earlier that the abolishment of slavery in the american south also had drastic effects on society. People need time to adapt, but it's still better than making no changes at all.

You can argue that her ruling Mereen was something which was destined to fail right from the start, but, given the circumstances, I think Dany did pretty well. Some things are just not meant to be, however that doesn't mean one shouldn't try.

Communism in Russia was "tried" for 60 years in Russia, then people found out it didn't work after all.

From the way you argue you would have expected no less from Dany than a miracle. Maybe Jon Snow would have been able to satisfy :cool4:

[Albertine]

Yes. Apparently in the space of a year Dany, at 13, should have been able to...

(1) Win over a populace in a state of drastic upheaval

(2) Get the economy back on track

(3) Fight an epidemic

(4) Fight a war against an alliance of surrounding cities

(5) Train her dragons

(6) Choose a better husband

(7) Assimilate culturally with her new home and people

As a life's work, that might have been do-able. But to condemn her for failing to accomplish all of those things in the span of a year? Really bizarre. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty pleased if I do my dishes the day I get them dirty.

[Broken Fox]

It isn't realistic, and that's exactly why she should have listened to her advisers in the first place. Staying in Meereen was a stupid idea from the beginning.

[Nictarion]

It isn't realistic, and that's exactly why she should have listened to her advisers in the first place. Staying in Meereen was a stupid idea from the beginning.

I will never understand this. Do you not consider it admirable though? Should she left Meereen to become another Astapor?

[Broken Fox]

Yes. Essos isn't her world. She'll never accept their ways and they'll never accept her attempts to change it. Westeros is where she needs to be.

[Albertine]

It isn't realistic, and that's exactly why she should have listened to her advisers in the first place. Staying in Meereen was a stupid idea from the beginning.

Actually, what isn't realistic is asking her to accomplish all those things in the time allotted. I'd call her progress on-target, more or less.

Again, Dany doesn't know that she's a character in a book that can't settle down in Meereen. She thinks she has years.

[Albertine]

Yes. Essos isn't her world. She'll never accept their ways and they'll never accept her attempts to change it. Westeros is where she needs to be.

She needs to learn somewhere, somehow. KL isn't an easy place to hold power.

[Fauch]

So, if she abanoned all her "children", just said eff it, who cares about Slavers Bay, let's make for Westeros then people would be more happy with Dany?

I find that hard to believe.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Essos isn't her world.

It's the only world she remembers. She was raised in Essos. She speaks the languages there and knows the people. It's the only world she's ever known.

She'll never accept their ways and they'll never accept her attempts to change it.

You act like her problem with slavery is a simple matter of cultural differences. It's not. Her problem with the trade is personal, not cultural. Basically, she's fine with their "ways," it's the cruelty she wants to stop.

Westeros is where she needs to be.

Tell that to all the people who are SO SURE she'll go town-to-town feeding children to her dragons, hunting down "Usurper's Dogs" and their children for summery executions, and generally burning and pillaging.

[Broken Fox]

That's the thing.. they aren't her 'children.' They're slaves. It's that kind of overly idealistic thinking that got her into that predicament in the first place. She's a Queen, not an orphanage.

[Fauch]

She freed them. Once slave = forever slave?

[Broken Fox]

Semantics.

[Rooseman]

I will never understand this. Do you not consider it admirable though? Should she left Meereen to become another Astapor?

Admirable, sure. Smart? No.

I think Dany fits a recurring theme of ASoIaF perfectly. If you want to become a successful ruler, eventually you'll have to make ethically gray decisions. Good intentions come at a price, and don't necessarily yield good results. She slowly learns during her rule in Meereen, that she will have to drop a few of her (admirable!) ideals.

This harsh world has it's mechanisms to get rid of "good people," mainly because they can be taken advantage of by others. We saw it when Dany refused to execute the child hostages. Should she have done it differently? I have no idea what I'd do in that situation. But it is a weak spot that her enemies who are more ruthless than her can, did and will continue to use against her if she doesn't change it.

Edit: Fixed a few dumb mistakes.