Daenerys as a ruler?

[mrunderhill]

Dany's problem is her idealistic/delusional thinking usually overrides logic and facts. It's a Targaryen thing.

Tell that to Bloodraven, Maekor or Aegon.

[Broken Fox]

Tell that to Bloodraven, Maekor or Aegon.

It goes both ways. The idealistic thinking can make them or break them. You have your winners like Aegon.. and your losers like Aerys and Aerion Brightflame.

I think Daenerys' coin is still in the air.

[Nictarion]

She'll be open to killing women and children in the future?? That might make her a better ruler but it certainly wont win her any fans on the board.

No, I meant she won't take child hostages in the first place. She knows now she couldn't kill them.

[repbypop]

She did these things. Hence the freed slaves who were starting businesses, the disinherited masters who were digging ditches.

The court of justice was her--that's why people came to her every morning with their complaints.

And she created a local army to enforce the laws.

I agree she ought to have been working on an exit plan rather than planning a wedding. But she wanted to stay in Meereen long enough to see the olive trees bear fruit--so almost a decade.

The problem is that Dany was planning her whole life, whereas GRR Martin is writing a book that takes place over a much shorter time frame. She thought she had time that, alas, the author could not grant her.

That wasn't enough, she had barely punished the slavers, and some of her enemies was still free from punishment. And she should've named other people for justice matters. I agree she has no exit plan, adopting a heir would've been a wise choice, maybe Melisandre, that child is very smart for her young age. I see her as the queen for the cadet Branch of House Targaryen in Meereen

[Nictarion]

Dany as a ruler would be something like a mix of Stannis and Joffrey.

Sorry, but that's the most horrible comparison I've ever seen.

[repbypop]

Sitting on your ass all day and drinking/eating with people you don't particularily like is one of the duties of a queen. It is much the same in Westeros, except that Robert had Ned deal with all of this while he went hunting.

As for Daario...yes I somewhat agree, he is one of her weaknesses. I am willing to forgive her for Daario though, just like I can forgive Catelyn for freeing Jaime. Every character has SOME traits that are dislikable. Dany is after all a young girl, and young girls tend to act stupid when around attractive men.

Robert and Ned is no a good example to follow. She should have be collect some info on Hizadr and the others conspirators, and strike back when it was possible.

[mrunderhill]

It goes both ways. The idealistic thinking can make them or break them. You have your winners like Aegon.. and your losers like Aerys and Aerion Brightflame.

I think Daenerys' coin is still in the air.

Aegon was not really an idealist. His entire conquest was very realistic. We don't know why he decided to go on the conquest, but he understood the realities of his goal.

[Broken Fox]

Aegon was not really an idealist. His entire conquest was very realistic. We don't know why he decided to go on the conquest, but he understood the realities of his goal.

All conquerors are idealistic.

Anyway my main point is all Targaryens have an extreme way of thinking and this causes them to do crazy shit. That mentality can lead them to great success or ruin them.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Really? I don't think so at all. To me that says she is spoiled and sadistic (Joffrey) as well as hypocritical and unyielding (Stannis). Or were you trying to say a mix of good and bad, rather than bad and worse? Lol. You'll have to clarify because now I'm dying to know.

Danaerys innately possesses some key elements of a good ruler that simply cannot be taught. She is compassionate and fair. And she inspires people to follow her like no other character in the series. A leader with no followers is, well, useless.

On the downside, Dany is uneducated in general, lacks important knowledge of history which she should have in order to made good decisions in the future, and she does not have strong advisors. All rulers need a strong team of advisors around them. I know, I know, "she won't listen..." I think she will if someone (Tyrion) who isn't afraid to speak truth to power comes along. The qualities she lacks can be learned and bolstered by having the right people around her.

Also, I do not get where all the claims of madness are coming from. Wasn't part of the point of Viserys being in the story to demonstrate that *he* had the madness? Dany doesn't have it and many past Targs did not suffer from it. It's just bizarre to me that so many users of this forum think Targ = madness.

Lastly, when everyone criticizes Dany's storyline in Slaver's Bay, I think what they should be criticizing is the writing/editing that brought an amazing arc to a screeching and painfully boring halt. I realize this is blasphemy so I am running away now... :leaving:

the reason I think that she is like Stannis is that she is hypocritical and condescending but just and fair. She tries to be unbiased and she looks to rule for the sake of duty, not privilege, which is the way to go.

Like Joffrey, she has a cruel streak. Just not to the same extent. The killing of the Astapor slavers. The crucifixion of maesters. Those are cruel things. Understandable, sure. But cruel. And things such as walking into the pyre show she's a little but nuts.

[Albertine]

No, I meant she won't take child hostages in the first place. She knows now she couldn't kill them.

Actually, raising children and forming strong bonds of loyalty while weakening the bonds that the children have with their parents is an excellent way to achieve a cultural sea-change. If you have a generation to accomplish it.

The people advising Dany to kill the children want the short term benefit. They want terror from the parents. This whole plotline is frustratingly vague, but go ahead and assume they're right. The parents might toe the line for a little while, but Dany would solidify a bad relationship, lose a hostage, and, in the process, the dead child would also mean the loss of a potential future ally.

Theon is the most obvious comparison here--his loyalties are torn, but his initial and final impulse is to support Robb, and he's fundamentally lost the worldview of a true Ironborn--which means that, despite the fact that Theon is kind of a git, the program worked. But I'll bring up another example, that of the Ottoman 'kuls'.

The Ottomans had one, unbroken dynastic chain last for 400 years. That's almost unparalleled in world history, and they did it by similar means. They allowed no aristocracy and brought slave-children into the palace from an early age. The slaves, 'kuls', lived with the Sultan through adulthood, so that their loyalty was to him, and to the palace, and then sent out into the world. It worked really well over the long term.

Again, the problem is that Dany is trying to plan her whole life, while the readers know she can't stay in Meereen forever. We know that any long-term planning she does isn't going to pay off, but we only know that thanks to the miracle of narrative necessity.

[Albertine]

That wasn't enough, she had barely punished the slavers, and some of her enemies was still free from punishment. And she should've named other people for justice matters. I agree she has no exit plan, adopting a heir would've been a wise choice, maybe Melisandre, that child is very smart for her young age. I see her as the queen for the cadet Branch of House Targaryen in Meereen

Wait, so your big criticism of Dany is that she hadn't accomplished every possible goal with the near-miraculous speed that you would prefer?

This is no criticism at all.

[mrunderhill]

Actually, raising children and forming strong bonds of loyalty while weakening the bonds that the children have with their parents is an excellent way to achieve a cultural sea-change. If you have a generation to accomplish it.

The people advising Dany to kill the children want the short term benefit. They want terror from the parents. This whole plotline is frustratingly vague, but go ahead and assume they're right. The parents might toe the line for a little while, but Dany would solidify a bad relationship, lose a hostage, and, in the process, the dead child would also mean the loss of a potential future ally.

Theon is the most obvious comparison here--his loyalties are torn, but his initial and final impulse is to support Robb, and he's fundamentally lost the worldview of a true Ironborn--which means that, despite the fact that Theon is kind of a git, the program worked. But I'll bring up another example, that of the Ottoman 'kuls'.

The Ottomans had one, unbroken dynastic chain last for 400 years. That's almost unparalleled in world history, and they did it by similar means. They allowed no aristocracy and brought slave-children into the palace from an early age. The slaves, 'kuls', lived with the Sultan through adulthood, so that their loyalty was to him, and to the palace, and then sent out into the world. It worked really well over the long term.

Again, the problem is that Dany is trying to plan her whole life, while the readers know she can't stay in Meereen forever. We know that any long-term planning she does isn't going to pay off, but we only know that thanks to the miracle of narrative necessity.

Why are the Meereen ever going to accept Dany as the ruler? 400 years is not particularly impressive in world history when compared to other noble families.

Dany made a threat she was not prepared to keep and that makes you look weak and foolish. If you don't have the desire to do something then never make a threat. Dany knows nothing about the history of Meereen, the people the culture etc. She has not tried to integrate into their society. She comes across as a foreign ruler.

[Fauch]

We don't know what she gives him, but it was foolish to trust her. The bloodriders have seen Drogo injured before and know that the eunuchs have healed him. They know that the eunuchs have skill. This is the first battle that Dany has seen, the first time she has seen Drogo wounded and she presumes she knows better than warriors, who have seen a lifetime of battle.

I would say considering the eunuchs heal with fire and needle, they would have burnt out the infection and then sewed the wound shut, saving Drogo's life.

No it was not foolish. At best it was naive.

You are also mixing things up here. We have no reason to believe that the poultice wouldn't have healed Drogo, the fact that it itched and burned even points to the fact that it was helping vs the infection.

Mirri betrays her when she has her trade Rhaego's life for Drogo's. At that point, the chance that the eunuchs would have been able to safe Drogon is around zero.

You are essentially blaming her for Drogo ripping the poultice off.

[Fauch]

Wait, so your big criticism of Dany is that she hadn't accomplished every possible goal with the near-miraculous speed that you would prefer?

This is no criticism at all.

This, a thousand times. She is in Mereen for how long, not even a year? Do you know how long the reconstruction of the american south took?

She is trying to change things in Slavers Bay for the better. This is obviously not a goal you can achieve in a few months, unless you take the simplest approach and have everyone killed,

[Albertine]

Why are the Meereen ever going to accept Dany as the ruler? 400 years is not particularly impressive in world history when compared to other noble families.

Really? Name me another.

I think there might be a comparable example in China, but I haven't studied Chinese history. Nowhere in Europe. Ever.

Dany made a threat she was not prepared to keep and that makes you look weak and foolish. If you don't have the desire to do something then never make a threat. Dany knows nothing about the history of Meereen, the people the culture etc. She has not tried to integrate into their society. She comes across as a foreign ruler.

...in the short term. But in the long term, if Dany had kept those kids close, if she'd continued to shower them with love and affection, she'd have found a bloodless way to win the war.

I really think that GRRM's worldbuilding in Meereen turned out to be shallow. Dany is the only character in the entire series we've seen integrate with a foreign culture. It's in her nature to be curious, and to learn. And GRRM half-heartedly shows us the process starting afresh in Meereen, with Dany spending a lot of time learning about the local religion from the Graces, taking local supporters as advisors, talking to all the petitioners who come to her every day.

She does try. But it's her against not just the city, but the whole region--every powerful person in all of Slaver's Bay--and the odds aren't great.

[Fauch]

Really? Name me another.

I think there might be a comparable example in China, but I haven't studied Chinese history. Nowhere in Europe. Ever.

...

What about Habsburg? I think they ruled for close to 700 years.

Nevertheless, 400 years is an impressive amount of time.

[mrunderhill]

No it was not foolish. At best it was naive.

You are also mixing things up here. We have no reason to believe that the poultice wouldn't have healed Drogo, the fact that it itched and burned even points to the fact that it was helping vs the infection.

Mirri betrays her when she has her trade Rhaego's life for Drogo's. At that point, the chance that the eunuchs would have been able to safe Drogon is around zero.

You are essentially blaming her for Drogo ripping the poultice off.

Sometimes there is a thin line between naive and foolish. When you refuse to listen to good advice, it's foolish. We don't know if the poultice would have healed Drogo, but I doubt it. MMD hated Drogo and wanted him dead. Even if Mirri was not lying, I would consider trusting her immediately very foolish. She should have gone wit the eunuchs.

[The Idiots Lantern]

Dany made a threat she was not prepared to keep and that makes you look weak and foolish. If you don't have the desire to do something then never make a threat.

I don't think Dany knew it was an empty threat when she made it. She'd never taken child hostages before and probably fully intended to kill them if she had to. It wasn't until the moment of truth that she realized she'd never be able to do it.

And thank goodness too. Theon actually went through with killing the miller's boys and hasn't been able to live with himself since. Besides, I'm convinced if she HAD killed the kids, the very people calling her weak-willed now would be calling her a sociopathic child-murderer instead. Which is better?

Dany knows nothing about the history of Meereen, the people the culture etc. She has not tried to integrate into their society.

Dany has gone out of her way to wear their clothes, participate in their rituals, show respect to The Green Grace, take local advisers into her court, she even took a husband of the local blood. What more could she possibly do?

Plus, as Albertine keeps pointing out, the children she didn't kill could be key allies in the future, with the proper upringing.

That her plans DIDN'T WORK doesn't mean it was wrong to try.

[Fauch]

We are strongly led to believe that the poultice would have healed Drogo. Purging infections does exactly that what is described, itch and burn. If Mirri wanted to kill him via the poultice, she could have done it way quicker. She knew her life was forfeit anyway if she didn't manage to heal him.

By the same logic we also don't know that the eunuchs would have been able to heal Drogo. Or any maester.

[Albertine]

What about Habsburg? I think they ruled for close to 700 years.

Nevertheless, 400 years is an impressive amount of time.

I don't want to derail the thread too badly, but check the wiki page for the Hapsburgs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Habsburg

The family was relevant for a very long time, but there's no single unbroken dynasty. Lots of short stints here and there, branches that rise and are extinguished, which is the exact opposite of what the Ottomans accomplished.