(Book and Show Spoilers) Does anyone think the show portrays some characters more positively then the books?

[Mr Fixit]

Sorry, but have to disagree. I'm actually surprised how small is the general disappointment in the show among the most loyal ASOIAF fans, which would definitely be us, here on Westeros.org. Compared to the sheer number of changes, I expected more people would complain.

I didn't say they're in majority. A small yet vocal minority. That's all.

[Miodrag]

I didn't say they're in majority. A small yet vocal minority. That's all.

More vocal than those who jump in arms every time someone makes a complaint about the show? Wouldn't say so. Just look at this thread alone. Or this site, for that matter. Show-lovers are endlessly more vocal even on Westeros.org, not to mention sites like "Tower of The Hand" and "Winter Is Coming" and their posters.

I'll forever be puzzled by claims that RW was 'more powerful' in the show than it was in the books. I saw something to that effect about Ned's death, too. A number of posters say Talisa is an improvement on Jeyne. And there's a legion of other "show is better than the books" claims that are, essentially, certainly not a bit less radical than any complaint I brought up. And look at you, for example. You don't go around replying to them in order to oppose or 'correct' them. I'm not saying you should. Nor do I mind your replies to myself and other 'purists'. It keeps me in shape, at the very least, especially because you hardly miss an opportunity to question what I post, no matter how 'small' or 'insignificant' it may be, and I want my views to be tested, or otherwise I wouldn't be posting those around. But, if you think you objectively measured how vocal is one group or another, I'd say you're wrong.

[brian_177]

I'll forever be puzzled by claims that RW was 'more powerful' in the show than it was in the books. I saw something to that effect about Ned's death, too. A number of posters say Talisa is an improvement on Jeyne. And there's a legion of other "show is better than the books" claims that are, essentially, certainly not a bit less radical than any complaint I brought up.

I can't speak towards Talisa being an improvement over Jeyne, because that change didn't seem to involve anything more than a nationality and name change--they even introduced her at (basically) the Crag. So I've never been sure why that change needed to be there at all, whereas I can absolutely see the pluses to Ros, for example.

Anyways, on the RW being more 'powerful' in the show than books... I can see what people mean by that. I don't think it's better or worse than the books, but it definitely hits harder, I think. As one reviewer pointed out, book readers have the option to speed up their reading through a tough part, or set the book down once they know what's coming, or read more slowly to lessen the blow, whatever.. On the show, on the other hand, you're basically just along for the ride, and as the deathtoll rises and the crossbow quarrels fly one after another, you have no choice but to watch it unfold--perhaps hitting the pause button if you really need to. That, to me, made it feel different than the books. If powerful, though, means that someone thinks it is more effective or a stronger scene emotionally, I'd disagree.

[Miodrag]

I can't speak towards Talisa being an improvement over Jeyne, because that change didn't seem to involve anything more than a nationality and name change--they even introduced her at (basically) the Crag. So I've never been sure why that change needed to be there at all, whereas I can absolutely see the pluses to Ros, for example.

I beg to defer. That change involved much more than a nationality and a name. Jeyne is barely a character. Not much can be said about her. She's a narrative vehicle used to show Robb's immaturity that took control over him when he saw what his decision to send Theon away lead to. Some readers find it contrived, I and other readers don't, but Jeyne is just a narrative vehicle. She didn't need to be anything more than that, up to this point at least. Writers use narrative vehicles like that all the time, so she was totally legit, especially because in the books Cat is at the center of that tragedy, not Robb (who is obviously an enormous part of the tragedy, but it's Cat who this tragedy belongs to). Talisa is a character, which is a change in itself. Not good or bad change necessarily, but change it is. OK, they wanted to emphasize romance in that plot for whatever reason. No problems even with that decision. But, her characterization, represented by her actions, worldviews and most of all dialogue, is what I find catastrophic. No need to elaborate on it, I guess, since I never tried to hide why I find her an embarrassment of epic proportions. But, I'd say we can agree that she is a big change.

Anyways, on the RW being more 'powerful' in the show than books... I can see what people mean by that. I don't think it's better or worse than the books, but it definitely hits harder, I think. As one reviewer pointed out, book readers have the option to speed up their reading through a tough part, or set the book down once they know what's coming, or read more slowly to lessen the blow, whatever.. On the show, on the other hand, you're basically just along for the ride, and as the deathtoll rises and the crossbow quarrels fly one after another, you have no choice but to watch it unfold--perhaps hitting the pause button if you really need to. That, to me, made it feel different than the books. If powerful, though, means that someone thinks it is more effective or a stronger scene emotionally, I'd disagree.

I saw that "What The Flick?" video also and, excuse me for saying, but that guy was just trying to appear bigger expert than he might be (which, truth be told, I'd be tempted to do also, if sitting next to a young lady with such a nice legs like he was). Just looking at those clips of people's reaction to RW shows how many viewers were distracted during the scene itself. One was texting, the other was picking his ears, one was playing with a dog, any number of girls covered their face with a blanket, and so on. And, truth be told, maybe I'm harsh to the "What The Flick?" guy, cause he was talking about his personal experience, as I recall now. If you're drawn to the show, you're drawn to the show. If you like RW more on the show than you did in the books, that's it. No technical explanation needed. I can see people being more affected by spectacle than by their own imagination, which can be for a variety of reasons: one may dislike Martin's prose, for example, and therefore not drawn deep enough into the scene while reading, but TV experience eliminated that problem. But, it has nothing to do with the nature of one medium or another.

[brian_177]

I beg to defer. That change involved much more than a nationality and a name. Jeyne is barely a character. Not much can be said about her. She's a narrative vehicle used to show Robb's immaturity that took control over him when he saw what his decision to send Theon away lead to. Some readers find it contrived, I and other readers don't, but Jeyne is just a narrative vehicle. She didn't need to be anything more than that, up to this point at least. Writers use narrative vehicles like that all the time, so she was totally legit, especially because in the books Cat is at the center of that tragedy, not Robb (who is obviously an enormous part of the tragedy, but it's Cat who this tragedy belongs to). Talisa is a character, which is a change in itself. Not good or bad change necessarily, but change it is. OK, they wanted to emphasize romance in that plot for whatever reason. No problems even with that decision. But, her characterization, represented by her actions, worldviews and most of all dialogue, is what I find catastrophic. No need to elaborate on it, I guess, since I never tried to hide why I find her an embarrassment of epic proportions. But, I'd say we can agree that she is a big change.

I would agrue that one main reason Jeyne isn't a character is because we see her through Cateyln, who probably isn't inclined to tell us a lot about the romance and love behind her and Robb's relationship. I also obviously know that there is more to the change than just changing her name and origin, you aren't the only one here to read the books--my point is that aside from those two changes Talisa could easily have been Jeyne, a different Jeyne, but still Jeyne Westerling. Perhaps the showrunners, for better or worse, wanted to put another female character into the mix of a larglely male-dominated show--and that required some changes and some invention.

I saw that "What The Flick?" video also and, excuse me for saying, but that guy was just trying to appear bigger expert than he might be (which, truth be told, I'd be tempted to do also, if sitting next to a young lady with such a nice legs like he was). Just looking at those clips of people's reaction to RW shows how many viewers were distracted during the scene itself. One was texting, the other was picking his ears, one was playing with a dog, any number of girls covered their face with a blanket, and so on. And, truth be told, maybe I'm harsh to the "What The Flick?" guy, cause he was talking about his personal experience, as I recall now. If you're drawn to the show, you're drawn to the show. If you like RW more on the show than you did in the books, that's it. No technical explanation needed. I can see people being more affected by spectacle than by their own imagination, which can be for a variety of reasons: one may dislike Martin's prose, for example, and therefore not drawn deep enough into the scene while reading, but TV experience eliminated that problem. But, it has nothing to do with the nature of one medium or another.

That's clearly not at all what I'm saying--and again you are suggesting that people who disagree with you on this point didn't 'get it'--that they don't like the books because of the writing style. I thoroughly enjoy the books, I thoroughly enjoy the show. And I can see why many people including book readers were struck by the RW scene differently than when they read the books. A couple minutes of screen time does not perfectly compare to a couple pages from a book--they are a different medium, and yes that absolutely changes things. A TV watcher has no control over the pace of the show or by how things are portrayed. To suggest that people who think this are not imaginative enough to picture the books properly is silly.

Additionally, I don't know who you are talking about when you say that someone is trying to be a 'bigger expert than he might be'. If it's a book reader, again we see your feeling of superiority when it comes to understanding the source. If it's someone who hasn't read the books--it's obviously up to him to decide how to judge a show that's based on books he hasn't read.

Do you think the RW scene in the show is worse than the one in the books? Why?

[Mr Fixit]

More vocal than those who jump in arms every time someone makes a complaint about the show? Wouldn't say so. Just look at this thread alone. Or this site, for that matter. Show-lovers are endlessly more vocal even on Westeros.org, not to mention sites like "Tower of The Hand" and "Winter Is Coming" and their posters.

Since they are a majority according to your own admission, I'd say it's good they are more vocal, wouldn't you agree?

Also, please note that I don't disagree with every complaint, not even close. I am amused however and feel a perverse (I admit) and futile need to respond to those who tend to behave as if the show killed their puppy, then resurrected it as an undead grotesque and killed it once more for good measure. I've been around the internet for a long time, a (not too active) part of several fandoms. And believe me, file off the serial numbers and every single one of those has the same routine. Every single one. They don't get it. Have you even read the books/watched the show? They hate character X and love character Y. They completely missed the point. The show butchered this one or that one. They are spitting on the very essence of XYZ.

I've seen it all and it's always the exact same.

[Miodrag]

To suggest that people who think this are not imaginative enough to picture the books properly is silly.

What is silly, actually, is my attempt to have a reasonable discussion with you. It didn't work last time around, it obviously isn't going to work this time either. You evidently can't help but feel inferior to me. If I knew you personally, that might even flatter me. This way, it only reminds me of the futility of arguing with people who don't know how to argue. Believe me, I'm not flattered at all when I see you repeating you read the books, or when you're defending the guy whose understanding of the books I haven't questioned at all (nor his media expertise, for that matter; only his possible showing-off around beautiful woman).

I guess you'll continue this duel against my 'feeling of superiority'. But, I see no need for me to participate in it any more, just as it wasn't dependent on my involvement before. Hope you won't mind if I do my best to avoid it in the future.

Do you think the RW scene in the show is worse than the one in the books? Why?

I do. Because I feel superior. No other reason, in fact.

[Miodrag]

I am amused however and feel a perverse (I admit) and futile need to respond to those who tend to behave as if the show killed their puppy, then resurrected it as an undead grotesque and killed it once more for good measure.

But, you wouldn't say you are amused by those who behave as if show-complainers killed their puppy, then resurrected it as an undead grotesque and killed it once more for good measure? You don't realize this is an adaptation! This show is the best ever and you should stop watching it if you don't like it! The books aren't perfect! They need to change things! They know what they're doing, they're professionals, they don't need you to tell them what is right and what is wrong. Judge the show as a show, and not against the books. (This last one is always followed by absolute ignoring any subsequent example of show failures that are unrelated to the source material.)

Just asking. Not questioning your right to be amused by whatever and whoever you find fit.

[Miodrag]

I've seen it all and it's always the exact same.

One more thing: do you think ASOIAF is 'the exact same' (in terms of pure quality, of course) as those other materials that inspired same type of obsession? Again, I'm just curious, cause I actually wouldn't know what materials you refer to, since that kind of fandom always managed to escape me.

[Mr Fixit]

But, you wouldn't say you are amused by those who behave as if show-complainers killed their puppy, then resurrected it as an undead grotesque and killed it once more for good measure? You don't realize this is an adaptation! This show is the best ever and you should stop watching it if you don't like it! The books aren't perfect! They need to change things! They know what they're doing, they're professionals, they don't need you to tell them what is right and what is wrong. Judge the show as a show, and not against the books. (This last one is always followed by absolute ignoring any subsequent example of show failures that are unrelated to the source material.)

Not as much, no, 'tis true. Hypocrisy of highest order on my part, I'm afraid.

[brian_177]

But, you wouldn't say you are amused by those who behave as if show-complainers killed their puppy, then resurrected it as an undead grotesque and killed it once more for good measure? You don't realize this is an adaptation! This show is the best ever and you should stop watching it if you don't like it! The books aren't perfect! They need to change things! They know what they're doing, they're professionals, they don't need you to tell them what is right and what is wrong. Judge the show as a show, and not against the books. (This last one is always followed by absolute ignoring any subsequent example of show failures that are unrelated to the source material.)

Just asking. Not questioning your right to be amused by whatever and whoever you find fit.

The difference, I think, is that you are not at all alone in your issues with the TV show. I think it's safe to say that most of us share most of them. You seem, and as usual forgive me if I'm wrong, to have a special hatred for the show, given the spirit and tone of your posts.

The way I look at any adaptation from book to screen (and I've definitely said this to friends about GoT as well) is to go in with the knowledge that most adaptations keep most major characters and major events--the basic plot is still the same--but plenty of the subplots and depth will go by the wayside. To me, this doesn't automatically make any show 'bad.' There are certainly varying degrees of departure from the books, and at a certain point it becomes a problem--but I don't think Game of Thrones is there yet.

[CarCrashFiance]

Do you think the RW scene in the show is worse than the one in the books? Why?

The Red Wedding on the show is almost comical. I've rewatched it many times and it seems so staged and set-piece. Ned's beheading rang far more true and less like some scripted event. The way that each moment happens is very staged on the show's RW. Everyone pauses for each big set-piece. The entire room is motionless while Roose stabs Robb. Then he exits quickly with a spin and they move to the next piece. It looked more like a stage play than a piece of expensive cinema. Choreographed far too much.

The book is far more chaotic. Tables are being flipped over. The failure of Merrett to drink the Greatjon into the floor. The drum is pounding over people screaming. Dozens of men storm into the hall. Jinglebell's hat is jingling. Lady Mormont takes an axe to the gut. And many of Robb's most loyal followers are going down in violent ways.

I didn't mind Talisa being at the wedding or being stabbed to death while pregnant. It was obvious she was doomed when they changed her from Jeyne Westerling. But the chaos and madness of the Red Wedding seemed entire absent. That was obviously a bunch of actors and actresses going through the motions on a sound stage. The same problematic choreographing happens at the Mutiny at Craster's on the show. Things seemed so staged and not at all spontaneous.

Ned's beheading was still the best example of a featured show moment done correctly. You see no pauses for each actor to have a shining moment of glory. Ned is thrown onto his knees and immediately everyone reacts their own way. Sansa is screaming and red faced and feints. Cersei is screaming at Joffrey. Joffrey is laughing and pointing at the crowd. Littlefinger is dead faced. Varys is shocked. Pycelle is pleading for the Kingsguard to stop this. Everyone reacts simultaneously. The Red Wedding has none of that excitement and overload.

[six]

Since they are a majority according to your own admission, I'd say it's good they are more vocal, wouldn't you agree?

Also, please note that I don't disagree with every complaint, not even close. I am amused however and feel a perverse (I admit) and futile need to respond to those who tend to behave as if the show killed their puppy, then resurrected it as an undead grotesque and killed it once more for good measure. I've been around the internet for a long time, a (not too active) part of several fandoms. And believe me, file off the serial numbers and every single one of those has the same routine. Every single one. They don't get it. Have you even read the books/watched the show? They hate character X and love character Y. They completely missed the point. The show butchered this one or that one. They are spitting on the very essence of XYZ.

I've seen it all and it's always the exact same.

It doesn't take much to amuse you, I see. Good for you.

Do some posters really not realise that this specific thread invites a deliberate comparison between the book and the show? Maybe reading the title would help to clarify this point.

[brian_177]

The book is far more chaotic. Tables are being flipped over. The failure of Merrett to drink the Greatjon into the floor. The drum is pounding over people screaming. Dozens of men storm into the hall. Jinglebell's hat is jingling. Lady Mormont takes an axe to the gut. And many of Robb's most loyal followers are going down in violent ways.

I agree with you here absolutely. I don't understand why they bother to introduce characters like the Greatjon (who was a Season 1 staple) and Lady Mormont (albeit only for one shot, I think) only to have them missing from key moments like this. Especially since, for the Umbers, the story seems far from over. The Greatjon is still alive and Whoresbane and Mors are up to no good up North--but given what we've seen I suspect this is all out of the picture. Even a awful (in hindsight) moment like Catelyn being relieved to see sword-belts hung along the wall rather than at people's waists is something seemingly simple to shoot but for some reason left out.

Another obvious example is Sir Dontos--why include him at all if he's only getting the one scene? Maybe they'll include him in the eventual Sansa escape--but when you cut out all the meat, why bother at all? It could be anybody at that point. And frustratingly, time and money that could easily have gone to a Sansa-Dontos relationship is spent on things like Ros-Varys and (fabricated) Tyrion-Shae drama.

I have to say I was disappointed in all my friends all who didn't realize what was about to happen the instant Rains of Castamere started playing, given that they've hit us over the head with the tune for the past two seasons and I told them every time it played they needed to recognize it later on... but that's beside the point....

As a positive note, though I really wished she'd clawed the hell out of her face, Michelle Fairley did a great job with the entire Red Wedding scene.

[Pinkie Baelish]

snip

At first, I was really underwhelmed, but I warmed up to the scene on the second and third time I watched it, once I let go off my expectations. But what I still can't get over is Grey Wind's death. Total weaksauce and anti-climactic as well. What happened to the wolf that scared Jaime shitless in season 2? When I first watched it, I thought for a second that they were going for comedy over there, since so much drama is built up over the crossbowmen, only for Grey Wind to die with an anti-climactic whimper.

Apart from that, it was fine, IMO. There was a lot of missed potential(I still think they should have revealed Ramsay's identity and who burned Winterfell just before the massacre), but it had the same effect on Unsullied that the book did on me, so it achieved it's purpose(although the show missed a huge opportunity to convey the true tragedy of Catelyn in the scene, which might have been possible had she been more prominent throughout the show),

[Le Cygne]

Also the whole matter of critique is standard fare for the arts. Always has been, always will be. It's part of appreciation, too.

[echidna]

No doubt it's been mentioned but anyway ... I find it interesting how the change from character narrators to external views of the characters has changed how the characters appear. eg Stannis isn't shown through Stannis-fanboy-Davos's view, King's Landing doesn't have Sansa's slightly catty comment on each character, Catelyn doesn't sell her decisions with her internal spin, we hear less of Tyrion's acidic thoughts.

Without those lenses every character changes, most especially the most opinionated narrators and the recipients of their everyday comments.

I think there's also something momentus hapoening outside the show. Peter D's Tyrion is becoming the Uhura of our decade. 4 years ago I'm sure that quite a few GoT viewers would have laughed at the suggestion they'd be watching a show with a sexy little person as a star and a major character they'd like. Now it's just accepted. I for one am happy if Tyrion is slightly whitewashed if the show changes the Real world and the TV industry.

[Ghost of Snow]

I think that the only character who is completely changed from her book self is Shae. Not that I mind, because show! Shae is much more interesting and brings new dynamics into Tyrion's storyline.

I agree that Cersei is portayed more good than she was in the books but she still is a dark gray character so I don't mind.

[Hound Dog]

I actually believe the Hound is presented notably more pleasant in the show. In part because scenes like this one got cut from the show:

Tyrion was definitely presented better in the show. Ditto with Renly.

Really, most characters do appear better in the show, with Stannis being the notable exception.

Yes, I agree, the Hound is much softer in the show than in the books... although the OP makes a good point.... in the books it's easier to relate to his softer side, whereas in the show, he's just a numbskull who likes killing. I think he's portrayed as an absolute tool in the TV show. He's way smarter in the books, knows the score. In the show Arya steals his dagger and tells him off and he's too stupid to react to anything.

Also I agree with you in that Tyrion is way more positive in the show. Sometimes it's almost nauseating how perfect he is. Tyrion in the books is great because you get his inner dialogue. In the show they really really want the sympathy of viewers in regards to his character.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, I agree, the Hound is much softer in the show than in the books... although the OP makes a good point.... in the books it's easier to relate to his softer side, whereas in the show, he's just a numbskull who likes killing. I think he's portrayed as an absolute tool in the TV show. He's way smarter in the books, knows the score.

Show Hound is a disappointment. He's just a numbskull who likes killing, that about sums it up.