Come Into My Castle: The Ways of Warfare in Westeros updated, and PSA regarding troop quality

[To catch a Lannister]

Bumping this thread! I was reading Cracked(of all things) and I found this interesting article they linked, its about horses and actually being mounted in combat, here http://www.the-orb.net/non_spec/missteps/ch3.html

I wont link the cracked article since it doesnt pertain to what is being discussed here.

I have said the above before, I cant remember were but I will try to find it. I think its fascinating, and sheds more light on why dothraki would get fucked by a westerosi army.

Absolutely this. The Dothraki would get annihilated by the Westerosi. Just on strategy alone, let's say this is AGOT timeline: Tywin, Stannis, Ned/Robb, Randyll Tarly, the Dothraki would be a fucking joke. Not to mention armored knights against dudes wearing leather(sounds fashionable though). Also a basic rule if you're going to invade/attack a foreign position you need to outnumber them at least three to one. Dothraki wouldn't have that. Not to mention the incredible logistical accomplishment of ferrying an entire army across the narrow sea who've never sailed in their life and think the ocean is poison. They'd lose at least 25% of their troops along the way.

Amazing post dude, I've come to really respect a lot of your content. Keep it up!

[E-Ro]

Here back in december of 2012 I said this

Me too!

Dismounting can be effective, especially when facing lots of arrows, horses get panicked and hard to control. As well a horse will not charge a wall of pike or spear(they have self preservation) so the only way to dislodge a group of men with pole weapons is a charge on foot.

Here is the link http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78098-whats-the-point-of-a-greatsword-like-ice/page-4#entry3906194

[E-Ro]

Absolutely this. The Dothraki would get annihilated by the Westerosi. Just on strategy alone, let's say this is AGOT timeline: Tywin, Stannis, Ned/Robb, Randyll Tarly, the Dothraki would be a fucking joke. Not to mention armored knights against dudes wearing leather(sounds fashionable though). Also a basic rule if you're going to invade/attack a foreign position you need to outnumber them at least three to one. Dothraki wouldn't have that. Not to mention the incredible logistical accomplishment of ferrying an entire army across the narrow sea who've never sailed in their life and think the ocean is poison. They'd lose at least 25% of their troops along the way.

Amazing post dude, I've come to really respect a lot of your content. Keep it up!

Yeah, pretty much 100% accurate.

Lately this has been a point of much contention though. There are a small few vocal posters that think the dothraki could take westeros or cause a ton of problems if they invaded. That simply is not the case. Charging a disciplined grouping of infantry is a surefire way for light cavalry to get butchered. The horses will stop just short of the infantry, then the infantry will step forward and the butchery starts. Spears, pikes, halberds and poleaxes all rising and falling in unison, cutting horse and man alike.

[Trigger Warning]

Yeah, pretty much 100% accurate.

Lately this has been a point of much contention though. There are a small few vocal posters that think the dothraki could take westeros or cause a ton of problems if they invaded. That simply is not the case. Charging a disciplined grouping of infantry is a surefire way for light cavalry to get butchered. The horses will stop just short of the infantry, then the infantry will step forward and the butchery starts. Spears, pikes, halberds and poleaxes all rising and falling in unison, cutting horse and man alike.

I think the problem is that some people will compare them to the mongols and their successes on what are really quite shallow similarities and then attribute those successes to the Dothraki.

[To catch a Lannister]

Yeah, pretty much 100% accurate.

Lately this has been a point of much contention though. There are a small few vocal posters that think the dothraki could take westeros or cause a ton of problems if they invaded. That simply is not the case. Charging a disciplined grouping of infantry is a surefire way for light cavalry to get butchered. The horses will stop just short of the infantry, then the infantry will step forward and the butchery starts. Spears, pikes, halberds and poleaxes all rising and falling in unison, cutting horse and man alike.

Just look at the Battle of Agincourt, English we're outnumbered 5:1, their force consisted mostly of archers and men at arms. French Knights charged an entrenched position wanting glory and proving their bravery(gee I wonder what the Dothraki would do in this position) and got caught in a withering cross fire and we're annihilated. Archers alone are fucking game-changers. The Dothraki would be an incredibly joke if the hair-brained Viserys invasion ever went down. The notion that they'd be competent against a Westerosi army is laughable.

[E-Ro]

I think the problem is that some people will compare them to the mongols and their successes on what are really quite shallow similarities and then attribute those successes to the Dothraki.

Yeah, that might be part of the issue. It of course neglects the fact that the mongols used armor, had lancers, made heavy use of troops they had conquered and incorporated into their fighting force, and used blackpowder.

THEN on top of that, ignoring the dissimilarities, we have to mention the fact that the mongols never fought anything nearly as disciplined or well equipped as a westerosi army. westeros is modeled on 1400s western european armies. The mongols fought armies in eastern europe in the 1300s. They had limited success. They won a close fought battle sure, but after that the advance stalled and when their leader died they had to withdraw. After that every time they came back they were defeated. I mean fuck, they even had a STRONG respect for Serbian knights whom they said fought incredibly well.

Just look at the Battle of Agincourt, English we're outnumbered 5:1, their force consisted mostly of archers and men at arms. French Knights charged an entrenched position wanting glory and proving their bravery(gee I wonder what the Dothraki would do in this position) and got caught in a withering cross fire and we're annihilated. Archers alone are fucking game-changers. The Dothraki would be an incredibly joke if the hair-brained Viserys invasion ever went down. The notion that they'd be competent against a Westerosi army is laughable.

lol, im waiting for one of the dothraki defenders to come in here and start screaming at me.

[Trigger Warning]

Yeah, that might be part of the issue. It of course neglects the fact that the mongols used armor, had lancers, made heavy use of troops they had conquered and incorporated into their fighting force, and used blackpowder.

THEN on top of that, ignoring the dissimilarities, we have to mention the fact that the mongols never fought anything nearly as disciplined or well equipped as a westerosi army. westeros is modeled on 1400s western european armies. The mongols fought armies in eastern europe in the 1300s. They had limited success. They won a close fought battle sure, but after that the advance stalled and when their leader died they had to withdraw. After that every time they came back they were defeated. I mean fuck, they even had a STRONG respect for Serbian knights whom they said fought incredibly well.

I think the main issue is that most people don't really know much about the mongols beyond those shallow similarities they share with the Dothraki.

People generally say why were the mongols so successful? Oh mounted archers.

Well the Dothraki have mounted archers, well they must be as good as the mongols etc. When in reality the mongols successes are very complex.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Stannis, Tywin, Ned, Robert vs Khal Drogo, Viserys, Abkgsfkag,Ckubgkabgk.

Take your pick. Dothraki invasion was doomed from the start. The commanders are far too component and they'll be fighting on a known terrain and weather.

[Lord Reaver]

I have said the above before, I cant remember were but I will try to find it. I think its fascinating, and sheds more light on why dothraki would get fucked by a westerosi army.

"The above" is common "knowledge". It is, actually, not quite the whole truth. A horse will avoid obstacles if it can and has the time and opportunity to. Thing is, horses aren't all that smart. I know of people who'se horses have killed themselves by running straight into trees, for no other apparent reason than having been in the stable for a while and wanting to stretch their legs and just not seeing or being aware of the tree before it was too late.

And, even while most horses won't do that on their own, infantry was not alone in using massed formations, cavalry did as well, as seen e.g in this painting of polish hussars: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Husaria_pod_Kluszynem.jpg

A horse in a tight cavalry formation has nowhere to go but forward. There are horses on every side. So once they get up speed, there's no going away from the "wall" of people, and no stopping. The momentum alone will make sure the horse and it's rider hits the infantry.

And, as I keep reminding people, for every Agincourt and Crecy there is a Patay or Sain-Omer where english forces were destroyed by french heavy cavalry. The longbow was no more an "ultimate" weapon than the mounted knight.

[To catch a Lannister]

Yeah, that might be part of the issue. It of course neglects the fact that the mongols used armor, had lancers, made heavy use of troops they had conquered and incorporated into their fighting force, and used blackpowder.

THEN on top of that, ignoring the dissimilarities, we have to mention the fact that the mongols never fought anything nearly as disciplined or well equipped as a westerosi army. westeros is modeled on 1400s western european armies. The mongols fought armies in eastern europe in the 1300s. They had limited success. They won a close fought battle sure, but after that the advance stalled and when their leader died they had to withdraw. After that every time they came back they were defeated. I mean fuck, they even had a STRONG respect for Serbian knights whom they said fought incredibly well.

lol, im waiting for one of the dothraki defenders to come in here and start screaming at me.

By all means http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/04/wwe_the_rock_says_bring_it-42991.gif

That's another thing the Dothraki aren't used to all being united under one force of personality, Khal Drogo was a bit of anomaly, if he dies in battle(and hey he was dumb enough to die from one minor flesh wound) then the whole Dothraki force would collapse in on itself. Not to mention Westeros has superiority in terms of science, siegecraft, military tactics, technology, weaponry, armor....is that enough? Should I keep going?

[Lord Reaver]

THEN on top of that, ignoring the dissimilarities, we have to mention the fact that the mongols never fought anything nearly as disciplined or well equipped as a westerosi army. westeros is modeled on 1400s western european armies. The mongols fought armies in eastern europe in the 1300s. They had limited success. They won a close fought battle sure, but after that the advance stalled and when their leader died they had to withdraw. After that every time they came back they were defeated. I mean fuck, they even had a STRONG respect for Serbian knights whom they said fought incredibly well.

Not to mention that the battles they did win was against the youngest european countries with what was very likely the least disciplined and well-equipped armies. The armies of Poland and Hungary were nothing compared to those of England, France or the HRE at the time.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

By all means http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/04/wwe_the_rock_says_bring_it-42991.gif

That's another thing the Dothraki aren't used to all being united under one force of personality, Khal Drogo was a bit of anomaly, if he dies in battle(and hey he was dumb enough to die from one minor flesh wound) then the whole Dothraki force would collapse in on itself. Not to mention Westeros has superiority in terms of science, siegecraft, military tactics, technology, weaponry, armor....is that enough? Should I keep going?

Dothraki arahks are basically katanas which have legendary armor cutting capability - that Westerosi armor will be more of a hindrance than an asset.

[Trigger Warning]

Dothraki arahks are basically katanas which have legendary armor cutting capability - that Westerosi armor will be more of a hindrance than an asset.

That delicious bait.

[Lord Reaver]

That delicious bait.

I have to admit, it nearly got me there for a second before I recognized it for what it was.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

That delicious bait.

No, seriously. I saw a scientific documentary with that drill sargeant from Full Metal Jacket as the host and it showed, incontrovertibly, that not only do katanas do better against plate armor than European swords but that they in fact slice through plate armor with alarming ease.

[To catch a Lannister]

The same in that their both fucking swords? What a joke.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

The same in that their both fucking swords? What a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo#t=7m05s

Full Metal Jacket.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Just look at the Battle of Agincourt, English we're outnumbered 5:1, their force consisted mostly of archers and men at arms. French Knights charged an entrenched position wanting glory and proving their bravery(gee I wonder what the Dothraki would do in this position) and got caught in a withering cross fire and we're annihilated. Archers alone are fucking game-changers. The Dothraki would be an incredibly joke if the hair-brained Viserys invasion ever went down. The notion that they'd be competent against a Westerosi army is laughable.

lol, im waiting for one of the dothraki defenders to come in here and start screaming at me.

No need to, I'm fully prepared to disbunk the myth of arrows being this super-weapon: It's bullshit. E-Ro, you yourself often brought the examples from the crusades, with the crusaders having 20+ arrows stuck in them without being fazed.

Agincourt was mud, rain, bad tactics from the French, undisciplined French and it was won in hand to hand combat.

Dothraki arahks are basically katanas which have legendary armor cutting capability - that Westerosi armor will be more of a hindrance than an asset.

Please, do bait me :cool4:

No, seriously. I saw a scientific documentary with that drill sargeant from Full Metal Jacket as the host and it showed, incontrovertibly, that not only do katanas do better against plate armor than European swords but that they in fact slice through plate armor with alarming ease.

The one with the unsharpened european sword and that idiot making the full list of "don't ever do that"s? Yepp, it's a fun one.

Do you want the full list?

[Lord Reaver]

Agincourt was mud, rain, bad tactics from the French, undisciplined French and it was won in hand to hand combat.

Indeed. Keep beating that myth of longbow decisiveness whenever it rears it's ugly head.

[To catch a Lannister]

So because R. Lee Ermy hacked at a European breast plate with a Kitana that's evidence for the Dothraki beating the Westerosi? Got it!

For the record...http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130316025031/turtledove/images/e/ee/Katana3.jpg

http://www.dothraki.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Arahk2.jpeg

Why?! THEY'RE PRACTICALLY IDENTICAL!!

Not to mention all the various idiosyncrasies involved in smithing, to say they're practically identical is ridiculous.