Come Into My Castle: The Ways of Warfare in Westeros updated, and PSA regarding troop quality

[E-Ro]

Also before I forget, when the mongols invaded europe it was in the late 1200s(early 1300s if you count the fighting against byzantine, which didnt amount to much) a westerosi army is more like something you would see in the late 1400s to 1500s in Europe. You have to ask would the mongols in the way they were at the height of their power be able to do so well against a 1500s army of men at arms and knights? There is also the minor fact that the terrain they were fighting in in Europe was much closer to what they were used to then what they would have been fighting in had they made it further west.

[Lord Reaver]

Not to forget the fact that the Mongols weren't all that successfull against European forces at all. In fact, they never penetrated very far into the continent at all.

The europeans the Mongols fought and destroyed were mainly those of the slavic states in eastern europe, arguably much worse off in both terms of technology and organization than the nations further west.

[E-Ro]

Not to forget the fact that the Mongols weren't all that successfull against European forces at all. In fact, they never penetrated very far into the continent at all.

The europeans the Mongols fought and destroyed were mainly those of the slavic states in eastern europe, arguably much worse off in both terms of technology and organization than the nations further west.

Yeah, after the hungarians lost at mohi they made huge changes(courtesy of bella IV)

1. More fortifications, like, allot more.

2. More heavy cavalry.

After these changes, the next time the mongols came back in 1286 they got their asses handed to them.

[Kawasaki Bansai]

Not to forget the fact that the Mongols weren't all that successfull against European forces at all. In fact, they never penetrated very far into the continent at all.

The europeans the Mongols fought and destroyed were mainly those of the slavic states in eastern europe, arguably much worse off in both terms of technology and organization than the nations further west.

Mongols also were never able to successfully invade into India. India used elephants to get high ground on mongol hordes and smashed them.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Thanks for answering. Yeah I agree that the Mongols wouldn't have found success in Western Europe like they had in Eastern Europe. Logistics alone would've caused a shitstorm of problems.

I asked this because in one battle(Nicopolis 1396), the French Knights were slaughtered by the Turkish Sipahis, and by this time they had plate armor. Of course plate armor in the 15th century was a lot better than late 14th century armor, and the knight's defeat was mainly due to arrogant leadership, and the fact that they had just finished smashing the Turkish vanguard, which could have meant that some of their stamina was exhausted.

I was just wondering if the Dothraki could replicate this type of success in Westeros if they had brains, and were supported by other types of troops.

[E-Ro]

Thanks for answering. Yeah I agree that the Mongols wouldn't have found success in Western Europe like they had in Eastern Europe.

I asked this because in one battle(Nicopolis 1396), the French Knights were slaughtered by the Turkish Sipahis, and by this time they had plate armor. Of course plate armor in the 15th century was a lot better than late 14th century armor, and the knight's defeat was mainly due to arrogant leadership, and the fact that they had just finished smashing the Turkish vanguard, which could have meant that some of their stamina was exhausted.

Yeah, with shitty and ineffective leadership even the best of armies can be lost.

I was just wondering if the Dothraki could replicate this type of success in Westeros if they had brains, and were supported by other types of troops.

well if they were supported by other troops(infantry, heavy cavalry, etc) they would be way better off. Like, if the dothraki invaded alongside the golden company and a bunch of other merc companies and were willing to take orders from said mercs they would be a great force. A good leader would use them as scouts, skirmishers, etc. Of course, the dothraki dont seem like they would be happy taking orders from others.

On their own though, as i said, they dont stand a chance.

[Lord Reaver]

Saying that the French Knights were "slaughtered" by sipahis at the battle of Nicopolis is...misleading. The french knights utterly crushed both lines of Ottoman (and note the name of their opponents, this ain't mongols we're talking about) infantry and continues on into the sipahis.

Not to mention that the Ottomans had knights of their own, serbian ones. And these have been attributed a critical role in the victory, which by all accounts seems to have been a close one indeed, far from a "slaughter".

[Bright Blue Eyes]

As for the bows, yeah I would say the bows they use are turkish composite bows. Its really the best part of their arsenal. Its too bad they dont really use them like they should.

I doubt that. JonCon rates Summer Islands longbows > Westerosi longbows > Essosi composite bows, with disctinct differences in performance. Which would either make the Westerosi and especially the Summer Islands longbows better than their european counterparts - or the Essosi worse than the turkish ones.

I was just wondering if the Dothraki could replicate this type of success in Westeros if they had brains, and were supported by other types of troops.

No. If you phrase that differently, "could the Dothraki replicate this type of success in Westeros if they had brains and supported other types of troops", you'd get another answer though.

They might make decent skirmishers and outriders, after a brain upgrade. But these are auxiliary roles, not the force which wins the battles.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Not to forget the fact that the Mongols weren't all that successfull against European forces at all. In fact, they never penetrated very far into the continent at all.

The europeans the Mongols fought and destroyed were mainly those of the slavic states in eastern europe, arguably much worse off in both terms of technology and organization than the nations further west.

I dunno about technology, but at least the Kievan Rus by the time of the Mongol invasions had fractured into many small fiefdoms warring with each other, and as such weren't able to mount a coordinated resistance even though their realm on paper might have looked large and powerful.

[Matoro]

Anyway, I found this interesting because the stormlands are supposed to be among the most martial of regions and have had great success at war. But the lack of heavy cavalry would put them at a disadvantage. I wonder just how effective their infantry really is. They have to make up for this heavy cavalry deficiency somehow, and i think the way they do that is with better infantry. My point being, I think they might have some swiss style tactics going for them. The swiss were the first to defeat cavalry with infantry reliably.

Don't Marcher Lords use bows much more than other armies? Bot Anguy and Balon Swann are from Dornish Marches. I don't see why a knight like Balon would have been taught archery unless archery plays huge role in Marcher culture. It also makes sense to use bow in mountaineous terrain, especially while fighting poison-speared Dornish or high-cavalry Reachers.

I believe that the specialty of Stormlands infantry is much higher amount of bowmen. It really makes sense, since there are a lot of cliffs and hills in the Stormlands - heavy cavalry wouldn't be effective there. Also, Swiss tactics with pikes.

[E-Ro]

I doubt that. JonCon rates Summer Islands longbows > Westerosi longbows > Essosi composite bows, with disctinct differences in performance. Which would either make the Westerosi and especially the Summer Islands longbows better than their european counterparts - or the Essosi worse than the turkish ones.

I forgot about that jon con quote. Seems I was wrong about the dothraki bows. As to whether the dothraki bows are worse then their real life counterparts or the westerosi ones are just better, I see no reason why westerosi longbows would be better then real life ones, so im just gonna assume the dothraki composite bows are low quality.

Don't Marcher Lords use bows much more than other armies? Bot Anguy and Balon Swann are from Dornish Marches. I don't see why a knight like Balon would have been taught archery unless archery plays huge role in Marcher culture. It also makes sense to use bow in mountaineous terrain, especially while fighting poison-speared Dornish or high-cavalry Reachers.

I believe that the specialty of Stormlands infantry is much higher amount of bowmen. It really makes sense, since there are a lot of cliffs and hills in the Stormlands - heavy cavalry wouldn't be effective there. Also, Swiss tactics with pikes.

Its possible they use a higher amount of archers. Stannis does ask for more bows when he sends massey to get his sellswords. Its also likely they have better quality infantry as well as the higher amount of bows. There isnt really much info about it in the books, all we can do on this subject is assume.

Going back to the dothraki, Im pretty sure it was purposeful on the authors part to make them so lackluster in ability. There is no reason at all to specifically say they don't use armor or adapt other tactics from their own. And their favored tactic of "Shoot as you charge the enemy and get in close as soon as possible" works great on lamb men and OTHER dothraki. But against an other type of foe it just fails miserably. After reading about the battle of qohor in which they charged disciplined spearmen until they exhausted themselves I stopped taking the dothraki seriously.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Going back to the dothraki, Im pretty sure it was purposeful on the authors part to make them so lackluster in ability. There is no reason at all to specifically say they don't use armor or adapt other tactics from their own. And their favored tactic of "Shoot as you charge the enemy and get in close as soon as possible" works great on lamb men and OTHER dothraki. But against an other type of foe it just fails miserably. After reading about the battle of qohor in which they charged disciplined spearmen until they exhausted themselves I stopped taking the dothraki seriously.

Don't forget the "battle of the fighting pits" in Dance, when a couple mock-Dothraki get up against a couple mock-Westerosi and pretty much end up curbstomped after some initial adjustment.

Furthermore, GRRM very carefully omitted a competent source on their performance: Neither Barristan nor Quentyn ever meet more than ~30 adult male Dothraki (adult in a very loose sense, anything from pimples to white hair included), Dany has not a sliver of military knowledge and Jorah is not a PoV as well as really kissing Dany's behind.

If he didn't do that intentionally to prepare a very nasty culture shock, I'll my hat.

[Northern Nomad]

Don't forget the "battle of the fighting pits" in Dance, when a couple mock-Dothraki get up against a couple mock-Westerosi and pretty much end up curbstomped after some initial adjustment.

Furthermore, GRRM very carefully omitted a competent source on their performance: Neither Barristan nor Quentyn ever meet more than ~30 adult male Dothraki (adult in a very loose sense, anything from pimples to white hair included), Dany has not a sliver of military knowledge and Jorah is not a PoV as well as really kissing Dany's behind.

If he didn't do that intentionally to prepare a very nasty culture shock, I'll my hat.

I expect that the dothraki will be completely destryoed by the Golden Company in the second dance.

[E-Ro]

Don't forget the "battle of the fighting pits" in Dance, when a couple mock-Dothraki get up against a couple mock-Westerosi and pretty much end up curbstomped after some initial adjustment.

Furthermore, GRRM very carefully omitted a competent source on their performance: Neither Barristan nor Quentyn ever meet more than ~30 adult male Dothraki (adult in a very loose sense, anything from pimples to white hair included), Dany has not a sliver of military knowledge and Jorah is not a PoV as well as really kissing Dany's behind.

If he didn't do that intentionally to prepare a very nasty culture shock, I'll my hat.

Yeah, I agree 100%. And here is the quote, from dance.

After the beast fights came a mock battle, pitting six men on foot against six horsemen, the former armed with shields and longswords, the latter with Dothraki arakh s. The mock knights were clad in mail hauberks, whilst the mock Dothraki wore no armor. At first the riders seemed to have the advantage, riding down two of their foes and slashing the ear from a third, but then the surviving knights began to attack the horses, and one by one the riders were unmounted and slain, to Jhiqui's great disgust. "That was no true khalasar, " she said.

Obvious foreshadowing, I would say.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

That's no sheath, that's some modern bullshit to look pretty while posing. It lacks several of the basic functionalities of a sheath. Furthermore, you'd save maybe two seconds compared to a sheath to take off your shoulder, draw and drop.

There's a reason such sheaths were never used in history.

Couldn't one just have a normal sheath on the back though, and then draw the sword by gripping the blade itself when the sword comes out far enough and finish pulling it out that way? Then you wouldn't need to leave a scabbard behind on the ground for some mercenary or camp follower to pick up and walk away with while you are busy fighting.

[E-Ro]

Couldn't one just have a normal sheath on the back though, and then draw the sword by gripping the blade itself when the sword comes out far enough and finish pulling it out that way? Then you wouldn't need to leave a scabbard behind on the ground for some mercenary or camp follower to pick up and walk away with while you are busy fighting.

What do you mean bit by bit? Drawing a sword from your back is impossible to do in a smooth motion. You would have to flip the sheath over your shoulder to draw down, it would be awkward and leave you exposed.

As for someone stealing your sheathe, thats not really a big issue. Sheaths arent an expensive piece of kit. Why anyone would steal one, is beyond me.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

What do you mean bit by bit? Drawing a sword from your back is impossible to do in a smooth motion. You would have to flip the sheath over your shoulder to draw down, it would be awkward and leave you exposed.

As for someone stealing your sheathe, thats not really a big issue. Sheaths arent an expensive piece of kit. Why anyone would steal one, is beyond me.

But what if doesn't have to be done in a smooth motion? You adjust the grip of your hand further and further down the blade the more the sword comes out and keep pulling. I suppose that could be done pretty fast if one practiced it, though it might look weird.

It would at least save you the trouble of having to walk/ride back to where you drew your sword if you wanted to sheathe it again. Could be annoying if the fighting stretched over long distances I guess, like sporadic skirmishing.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Couldn't one just have a normal sheath on the back though, and then draw the sword by gripping the blade itself when the sword comes out far enough and finish pulling it out that way? Then you wouldn't need to leave a scabbard behind on the ground for some mercenary or camp follower to pick up and walk away with while you are busy fighting.

Of course you could pull it out hand over hand as well. Or just unsling it, draw, put it back into it's place. Just like a backpack. But just like a backpack, that's transportation only, not immediate access.

Either way, you don't want to wear a sheath on your back during combat. It's really awkward and an unnecessary disadvantage.

If you need your sword now, you carry it at your waist (swords are sidearms, not primary weapons) to accompany your lance or spear or polearm or whatever you primarily use or in hand (especially greatswords, which are an exception, they are primary weapons).

If you don't need it now, you either carry it at your waist to go with your civil clothing, or put it with your baggage if it's too big.

[SeanF]

This could be a case where we just have to suspend disbelief. I think the Golden Company and trained knights and armoured men at arms would be very formidable against unarmoured Dothraki. Moreover, many of the former are skilled tacticians and specialists in siege warfare, whereas the latter seem to have no siegecraft, and no tactic other than a wild charge.

Yet, Robert and Ser Jorah both rate the Dothraki. And, both are highly competent in military matters.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Of course you could pull it out hand over hand as well. Or just unsling it, draw, put it back into it's place. Just like a backpack. But just like a backpack, that's transportation only, not immediate access.

Either way, you don't want to wear a sheath on your back during combat. It's really awkward and an unnecessary disadvantage.

If you need your sword now, you carry it at your waist (swords are sidearms, not primary weapons) to accompany your lance or spear or polearm or whatever you primarily use or in hand (especially greatswords, which are an exception, they are primary weapons).

If you don't need it now, you either carry it at your waist to go with your civil clothing, or put it with your baggage if it's too big.

Unslinging it could be awkward if you are wearing other stuff on your back too, like a backpack. Hence why modern soldiers don't tend to carry their rifles on their backs when they wear those.

If you are for example a Night Watch ranger you probably have to carry a lot of extra stuff with you in addition to the combat equipment, so if the sword is too long to wear comfortably on the waist I could see somebody deciding to carry it on the back, and drawing it from there too.