Come Into My Castle: The Ways of Warfare in Westeros updated, and PSA regarding troop quality

[Tankbuster]

Uff, you don't know much about elephants in warfare do you?

Elephants whenever used in battle by any relatively large force were always armored. Elephant armor is big and heavy and is far more thicker than ordinary plate armor and is rounded to better fit the elephant's skull. Regular Armor piercing bolts and arrows like the Bodkin would have a good chance of deflecting against the armor. The elephant's front would be covered in leg plates with spikes on them. The rest of the elephant would either be covered with felt, or scaled armor along with felt. Crossbows will not penetrate enough to do any damage The only evidence commonly available in english to a general Internet guy about elephants against pikes is the Battle of the hydapses, where a force of unarmored elephants waded into the Phalanx and nearly routed them, and only driven off when their riders were killed. Here is a funny quip. The Greeks who remained in India gradually abandoned the pike phalanx and began to act as spearmen/heavy skirmishers as the Phalanx made for juicy targets for massed longbow fire, and their effectiveness against elephants was poor. Pikes became prevalent in India, only after elephants began becoming obsolescent in the gunpowder era.

Elephants were used very, very extensively until gunpowder became more refined. In the course of this discussion, since gunpowder hasn't been invented yet, elephants are going to be an important component in a westerosi/essosi conflict. They are the only force apart from unsullied infantry that are going to stand up against cavalry.

[Lord Reaver]

Uff, you don't know much about elephants in warfare do you? Elephants whenever used in battle by any relatively large force were always armored.

Quite a bit, actually. I also know that nowhere is it stated that the elephants used by the GC are armored. So your assumptions that they would be armored are just that; Assumptions.

But, even if I'll grant you that, arrows wasn't necessarily all I was referring to with missile weapons. Being big and lumbering, elephants make excellent targets for larger siege weapons. Also being big and relatively slow, one could have hundreds if not thousands of arrows and bolts aimed at one. No matter how much armor you put on the thing, some will find vulnerable spots, such as arrows and legs.

Not to mention wildfire. Using fire and/or smoke seems to have been one of the more effective tactics against elephants.

[Tankbuster]

You said something to the effect of longbows and crossbows being effectively used against elephants IRL. IRL longbows were used in India when the isles were tossing heads at Romans, and it was undoubtedly problematic to bring down elephants with regular longbow fire, and Steel longbows were developed for this task.Moreover you are vastly overestimating the accuracy of larger siege weapons, it was only later, much later when European Gunners were hired by the Mughals using the latest gunpowder artillery, that elephants began to go obsolete. Moreover JonCon seems to have the right mind about using elephants, as a cavalry screen, instead of using them as a giant battering ram like Hannibal and the Seleucids. This requires elephants being spread out in a nice screen in the path of the enemy cavalry. Deploying your own artillery in front of your heavy cavalry is kinda like shooting yourself in the foot, wildfire or no.

Oh and fire has been used to beat back elephants, and cavalry, and infantry and tanks for that matter. Therefore the side with the biggest flamethrowers win,

[Vengeance]

The idea that hesitant horses would have stopped cavalry charges being effective against massed infantry formations is a matter of ongoing debate. From the ancient world, our sources depict the Companion Cavalry as delivering the decisive blow in numerous engagements fought by Philip II and his son Alexander the Great. We are told for example that Alexander broke the Theban Sacred Band with a cavalry charge at the Battle of Chaeronea. This was the age of hoplite warfare, and the Thebans would have been armed with ~12ft spears. It has been speculated that the Companion Cavalrymen must have been armed with their own sarissae pikes to counteract the reach of the infantry spears - others believe that they were engaged from the flanks or rear. I imagine it was no different in the 14th/15th century - cavalry charges were not ineffective in themselves, but simply flinging horses and men into a bristling wall of pikes was not the most intelligent tactic.

[E-Ro]

Well i tend to think the biggest factor is the quality of infantry being charged. Well trained men are likely to understand that if they don't run they have a higher chance of survival. Untrained men are likely to see the horses bearing down and them and break formation. And well, broken formation= your fucked.

So while throwing cavalry at a wall of pike is probably stupid against a trained enemy( like a mercenary company, or a lords retinue) throwing cavalry at some lesser men would probably break them up from fear.

[Universal Sword Donor]

My biggest question, when it comes to the composition of the armies, doesn't even really touch on the weaponry. It touches on the harvest and the lack of men to bring in all the food. I only have one off the top of my head but I recall more than a few in the books. I'll see if I can add more if I have the time.

I can't imagine the Karstarks, who haven't been attacked by the Wildlings more than normal or exposed to the IB, are in much better shape than most other noble families. If they don't have enough men to get the harvest, they were taking peasants and tossing them into the levy.

“My lady, how do things stand at Karhold with your food stores?”

“Not well.” Alys sighed. “My father took so many of our men south with him that only the women and young boys were left to bring the harvest in. Them, and the men too old or crippled to go off to war. Crops withered in the fields or were pounded into the mud by autumn rains. And now the snows are come. This winter will be hard. Few of the old people will survive it, and many children will perish as well.”

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The problem there is infrastructure. The people drafted into the army are from immediately around the population centers/the castles. The villages farther off have both the men as well as the harvest still intact. But it can't be shipped to the castles.

On the other hand, those men have neither the training nor the equipment of the men lost at the Red Wedding. The wealthy landowners, fit for military service tend to cluster around the castles.

Of course that hardly applies to the Riverlands, where the civil population suffered far more than the actual soldiers.

[MyLittleFinger]

Come Into My Thread : The Ways of Warfare in Westeros.org

[Universal Sword Donor]

The problem there is infrastructure. The people drafted into the army are from immediately around the population centers/the castles. The villages farther off have both the men as well as the harvest still intact. But it can't be shipped to the castles.

On the other hand, those men have neither the training nor the equipment of the men lost at the Red Wedding. The wealthy landowners, fit for military service tend to cluster around the castles.

Of course that hardly applies to the Riverlands, where the civil population suffered far more than the actual soldiers.

How can that be? If the people far enough away from the castle can plant and harvest their crops during a time of war, it means they have enough manpower and beasts of burden to do so. They owe the castle some of that harvest in the form of taxes. They could have transported it. Failing that, was there not enough manpower to call in a few people from elsewhere to help with the harvest?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How can that be? If the people far enough away from the castle can plant and harvest their crops during a time of war, it means they have enough manpower and beasts of burden to do so. They owe the castle some of that harvest in the form of taxes. They could have transported it. Failing that, was there not enough manpower to call in a few people from elsewhere to help with the harvest?

We are talking about an area the size of let's say Germany, all of it under Karstark control. A travel time to Karhold of a full month (one way!) wouldn't be out of the ordinary, maybe even on the lower side. And on the entire trip, the men and the beasts of burden would need to eat. Neither shipping of voluminous goods nor sending farmhands away for so long can be afforded. Only literal shipping would do, but the villages would need to be on appropriate rivers for that.

The problem is the infrastucture (and the lack of bureaucracy as well, just to mention it).

[Ser Lepus]

We are talking about an area the size of let's say Germany, all of it under Karstark control. A travel time to Karhold of a full month (one way!) wouldn't be out of the ordinary, maybe even on the lower side. And on the entire trip, the men and the beasts of burden would need to eat. Neither shipping of voluminous goods nor sending farmhands away for so long can be afforded. Only literal shipping would do, but the villages would need to be on appropriate rivers for that.

The problem is the infrastucture (and the lack of bureaucracy as well, just to mention it).

If they were more like real-life medieval great lords or kings, the Karstarks would have several manors, keeps and small castles around, each managed by a bailiff and keeping a portion of the troops, and the lord and his family would move from one to another all the year to keep a direct hand on the rule of the country.

EDIT: If the Karstarks sent so many people that they couldn't harvest their own crops (that is, they scrapped the bottom of the barrel), and despite that, they sent so few troops with Robb...does that mean that Karhold had very few troops even before the war, and now that has lost those it's almost undefended?

Mmm...maybe Alys could conquer her castle with just her couple hundred Thenn warriors, and maybe a few wildling recruits from other tribes.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If they were more like real-life medieval great lords or kings, the Karstarks would have several manors, keeps and small castles around, each managed by a bailiff and keeping a portion of the troops, and the lord and his family would move from one to another all the year to keep a direct hand on the rule of the country.

Well, yes, but that doesn't seem to be the case in Westeros. Or at least only to a small extent.

EDIT: If the Karstarks sent so many people that they couldn't harvest their own crops (that is, they scrapped the bottom of the barrel), and despite that, they sent so few troops with Robb...does that mean that Karhold had very few troops even before the war, and now that has lost those it's almost undefended?

Mmm...maybe Alys could conquer her castle with just her couple hundred Thenn warriors, and maybe a few wildling recruits from other tribes.

Yes, it is virtually undefended, and yes, Alys expects to be able to take the castle with her husband's men. Granted, she expects them to yield to her, but she is confident either way.

By the way, "couple" hundreds is overestimating the remaining strength of the Thenns. Should be closer to eighty.

[Universal Sword Donor]

The exact quote Jon says is “Sigorn leads two hundred Thenns.” Given that they had to take a detailed headcount of the wildlings coming through and Stannis wanted to take the Thenns south, I'd say that he has a pretty good grasp on how many Thenns follow Sigorn.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

[E-Ro]

I updated the op and im bumping for the sake of my sanity.

The past few unsullied threads are making me want to scream. Anyway, this thread will be locked soon but it should continue to serve its purpose as a point of reference for future arguments on the quality of infantry in westeros.

[E-Ro]

Just found this article on Textile armor, which the vast majority of men will be using, here. http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_quilted.html

and this is the important part, in case you dont care to read the whole thing

Besides offering padding for comfort, did these quilted armour defenses provide any actual protection? The fact that soldiers wore these quilted defenses alone strongly suggests that they must have. Currently much amateur testing using various targets covered with aketon-like garments has shown that quilted defenses significantly decreased the penetration of sword cuts into the targets but did not completely prevent penetration. Possibly the most complete and sophisticated evaluation of the protective properties of textile defenses was done by Dr. Alan Williams. Using simulation tests he writes that if a quilted garment is made of 16 folds of linen alone it provided similar or better protection than 5mm of cuir bouilli (boiled leather) defense (~80-90J of energy needed to penetrate). The energy available to a sword or axe varies from 60 to 130J. In other words, 16 folds of linen may not be enough to completely prevent penetration by a sword, but the amount of damage dealt is significantly decreased. In addition, he also writes that the combination of padding and metal armour increases the energy needed by a piercing weapon (lance, arrow, crossbow bolt, etc.) for penetration as compared to the energy needed to penetrate the metal plate alone. Of course many of the actual garments were padded with hemp or wool or other tough-to-cut materials which largely decreased the need for many linen layers.

thats pretty good protection, but were it really comes in handy is against arrows. It is pretty much immune to the vast majority of arrowfire, especially when combined with mail or plate.

[vox umbrarum]

Can we ask question here? Something that I've been wondering while reading the books

Were there really sellswords hanging out in Inns at any time in RL? You know, the likes of Bronn and such. They seem to be pretty well accepted and nobody really cares about them as long as they don't need them. Shouldn't your average lord be quite concerned that there are basically unsworn and armed hitmen available for everyone with money roaming your land? Are there any reports if such condition actually occured during medieval times? Can't help it, but this just seems rather odd to me. Pretty common in many works of fantasy though.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Can we ask question here? Something that I've been wondering while reading the books

Were there really sellswords hanging out in Inns at any time in RL? You know, the likes of Bronn and such. They seem to be pretty well accepted and nobody really cares about them as long as they don't need them. Shouldn't your average lord be quite concerned that there are basically unsworn and armed hitmen available for everyone with money roaming your land? Are there any reports if such condition actually occured during medieval times? Can't help it, but this just seems rather odd to me. Pretty common in many works of fantasy though.

Depends on the number of sellswords. Single or small groups working mostly as merchant forces, yes. Organized companies, no. Cities and Lords made it a policy to keep those outside the walls. Granted, there they set up their own camps, and there were a lot of inns outside as well.

[James Arryn]

Can we ask question here? Something that I've been wondering while reading the books

Were there really sellswords hanging out in Inns at any time in RL? You know, the likes of Bronn and such. They seem to be pretty well accepted and nobody really cares about them as long as they don't need them. Shouldn't your average lord be quite concerned that there are basically unsworn and armed hitmen available for everyone with money roaming your land? Are there any reports if such condition actually occured during medieval times? Can't help it, but this just seems rather odd to me. Pretty common in many works of fantasy though.

There are absolutely reports of such during medieval times. France in particular suffered from brigandry, but all areas saw the results of unemployed soldiery turning to plunder or even trying to carve out their own petty holdings.

[khalhotpie]

Can we ask question here? Something that I've been wondering while reading the books

Were there really sellswords hanging out in Inns at any time in RL? You know, the likes of Bronn and such. They seem to be pretty well accepted and nobody really cares about them as long as they don't need them. Shouldn't your average lord be quite concerned that there are basically unsworn and armed hitmen available for everyone with money roaming your land? Are there any reports if such condition actually occured during medieval times? Can't help it, but this just seems rather odd to me. Pretty common in many works of fantasy though.

We dont know how normal that is they may normaly largely stay to the disputed lands etc where the work is

tywin seems to have been preparing and hiring as does stannis , the possibility of a massive scale war may have attracted them to come over in droves.