Jon or Rickon for KiTN?

[Pikachu101]

If Jon isn't going to be King of anything, what's the point in R+L=J, and how will he remain LC when he's just stabbed by his own men? If he lives, there's no way he could stay LC. Plus, when the wall falls, what's the point of a Night's Watch and a Lord Commander anyways? :)

Why does R+L=J have to mean anything? No ones going to believe Jon, I have a funny feeling Howland won't be able to convince him.

There's a chick with THREE dragons, crazy and incompetent as she is she still has THREE weapons of mass destruction.

There's also a dude with a huge army and has just conquered Stormsend.

These two look like Targaryens and have armies at their disposal. If there's going to be a Targaryen on the throne it won't be Jon.

He won't stay LC, but he won't be king either. How do we know the Wall is going to fall? That's just speculation and a theory fans came up with to support Jon abandoning his vows.

If a Northerner is going to be king/queen I'd rather it was Sansa. Westeros deserves a ruler who knows what she's doing and can actually play the Game of Thrones. If Jon sits on the IT (god forbid) Westeros will be stuck with another clueless king

Jon: LC

Rickon: Lord of Winterfell with the Blackfish as his regent

[tormund's beard]

Why does R+L=J have to mean anything? No ones going to believe Jon, I have a funny feeling Howland won't be able to convince him.

There's a chick with THREE dragons, crazy and incompetent as she is she still has THREE weapons of mass destruction.

There's also a dude with a huge army and has just conquered Stormsend.

These two look like Targaryens and have armies at their disposal. If there's going to be a Targaryen on the throne it won't be Jon.

He won't stay LC, but he won't be king either. How do we know the Wall is going to fall? That's just speculation and a theory fans came up with to support Jon abandoning his vows.

If a Northerner is going to be king/queen I'd rather it was Sansa. Westeros deserves a ruler who knows what she's doing and can actually play the Game of Thrones. If Jon sits on the IT (god forbid) Westeros will be stuck with another clueless king

Jon: LC

Rickon: Lord of Winterfell with the Blackfish as his regent

the plot will provide... Jon will take the iron throne with an army of wights others and thenns with bronze and gold armor covered with magic runes AND with tormund by his side, or at least his magic bracers (gold with engraved runes).

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Why does R+L=J have to mean anything? No ones going to believe Jon, I have a funny feeling Howland won't be able to convince him.

Well there's also likely Varys, Benjen, and soon Bran that could know about it in addition to Howland. Plus if R+L=J is true, and it amounts to nothing, then there's really no point for Lyanna to have ever hooked up with Rhaegar.

There's a chick with THREE dragons, crazy and incompetent as she is she still has THREE weapons of mass destruction.

There's also a dude with a huge army and has just conquered Stormsend.

These two look like Targaryens and have armies at their disposal. If there's going to be a Targaryen on the throne it won't be Jon.

There must be three heads to the Dragon, remember? GRRM certainly won't let us forget.

He won't stay LC, but he won't be king either. How do we know the Wall is going to fall? That's just speculation and a theory fans came up with to support Jon abandoning his vows.

How do the Others become an actual threat to anyone if the wall stays up? Otherwise, they're just an annoyance to wildlings and the Night's Watch, which would cheaper their entire existence.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

the plot will provide... Jon will take the iron throne with an army of wights others and thenns with bronze and gold armor covered with magic runes AND with tormund by his side, or at least his magic bracers (gold with engraved runes).

Well now, a Night's King Jon with a warged Dragon and undead army could be fun now that you mention it :)

[Pikachu101]

the plot will provide... Jon will take the iron throne with an army of wights others and thenns with bronze and gold armor covered with magic runes AND with tormund by his side, or at least his magic bracers (gold with engraved runes).

If something that cliche and ridiculous ever happens I'll burn the books.

[Pikachu101]

Well there's also likely Varys, Benjen, and soon Bran that could know about it in addition to Howland. Plus if R+L=J is true, and it amounts to nothing, then there's really no point for Lyanna to have ever hooked up with Rhaegar.

There must be three heads to the Dragon, remember? GRRM certainly won't let us forget.

How do the Others become an actual threat to anyone if the wall stays up? Otherwise, they're just an annoyance to wildlings and the Night's Watch, which would cheaper their entire existence.

Why would Varys even care? He doesn't need Jon, if anything Jon would be a liability to his plans.

I can't believe you're actually using Benjen :P

1. He's dead

2. He's definitely cold hands

3. How would know exactly?

Who cares if R+L=J doesn't mount to anything, Jon should be considerate enough to stay shut and let people who actually KNOW how to rule a kingdom sit on the throne. No one's going to believe a nobody is Rhaegar's son and a cripple, a small crag man and a definitely dead man won't change that

George also said the three heads aren't all Targaryens so I think:

Dany

Aegon

Bran

The Wall was built because of the Others. It stayed up once it can stay up again, too much wishful thinking to think it will be destroyed.

[IRON BANK]

For all the people on this board who are saying Rickon is to young to be Kitn remember. That blood in Westeros is a big deal. Tommen is very young but yet he sits the I.T. EVEN IF IN NAME ONLY. So if Rickon is brought forward Jon will not have a prayer as far as the northmen are concerned as to who gets to be KITN. This will deal with the succession nothing more.

[Pikachu101]

For all the people on this board who are saying Rickon is to young to be Kitn remember. That blood in Westeros is a big deal. Tommen is very young but yet he sits the I.T. EVEN IF IN NAME ONLY. So if Rickon is brought forward Jon will not have a prayer as far as the northmen are concerned as to who gets to be KITN. This will deal with the succession nothing more.

Praise The Lord someone gets it :D

Also Jon wouldn't try to become king if Rickon's alive anyway

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Why would Varys even care? He doesn't need Jon, if anything Jon would be a liability to his plans.

I can't believe you're actually using Benjen :P

1. He's dead

2. He's definitely cold hands

3. How would know exactly?

Who cares if R+L=J doesn't mount to anything, Jon should be considerate enough to stay shut and let people who actually KNOW how to rule a kingdom sit on the throne. No one's going to believe a nobody is Rhaegar's son and a cripple, a small crag man and a definitely dead man won't change that

On Varys, I guess it depends on what happens with Aegon, if he's successful, then you'd be right, he probably wouldn't want to muddy the waters with yet another, better heir. If Aegon fails, however, Varys might have need of another Targaryen or two...

As for Bran, I would imagine he'll speak to Jon through a dream sequence while Jon is unconscious after his latest run in at the wall. My guess is that he tells Jon that Rhaegar's crown is buried in the crypts at Winterfell.

George also said the three heads aren't all Targaryens so I think:

Dany

Aegon

Bran

Or Jon, Dany, Tyrion :)

The Wall was built because of the Others. It stayed up once it can stay up again, too much wishful thinking to think it will be destroyed.

Has there been a "Long Night" since the wall was built?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Praise The Lord someone gets it :D

Also Jon wouldn't try to become king if Rickon's alive anyway

There's a difference in being KitN in name, and actually leading I think was most people's point.

If R+L=J, then Rickon's claim to Winterfell and the North is actually better than Jon's anyways. However, Jon's claim to the Iron Throne is paramount to all the other Targaryens, including Dany and Aegon.

[Pikachu101]

On Varys, I guess it depends on what happens with Aegon, if he's successful, then you'd be right, he probably wouldn't want to muddy the waters with yet another, better heir. If Aegon fails, however, Varys might have need of another Targaryen or two...

As for Bran, I would imagine he'll speak to Jon through a dream sequence while Jon is unconscious after his latest run in at the wall. My guess is that he tells Jon that Rhaegar's crown is buried in the crypts at Winterfell.

Or Jon, Dany, Tyrion :)

Has there been a "Long Night" since the wall was built?

Crowning Jon is just wishful thinking for a cliche, fairy tale, stereotype ending for a series that is anything but that.

Westeros deserves a ruler who knows what she/he's doing! Sansa is the only Stark who should go any where near the Iron Throne

[Pikachu101]

There's a difference in being KitN in name, and actually leading I think was most people's point.

If R+L=J, then Rickon's claim to Winterfell and the North is actually better than Jon's anyways. However, Jon's claim to the Iron Throne is paramount to all the other Targaryens, including Dany and Aegon.

People's points don't make any sense

1. Jon won't be KitN

2. Jon won't be Rickon's regent

3. Everyone will support a Tully's son over some random woman's son

The Targaryens no longer have a claim to the throne: they won it by force and they lost it through force, the only way Dany and Aegon can get it back is with FORCE

Aegon comes before Jon actually; he's older and he's Elia's son

No one's going to care or believe R+L=J, especially when Jon decides to live in denial.

Who looks like a Targaryen?

Who has the support of Rhaegar's close friend?

Who has a vast army?

Whose defeated Stormsend?

Who has 20,000 untouched Dornish spears behind them?

Who has Varys?

I know who I'd believe was Rhaegar's son

Back to topic:

Rickon will be lord of Winterfell, he'll bend the knee so that Sansa can be queen

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Crowning Jon is just wishful thinking for a cliche, fairy tale, stereotype ending for a series that is anything but that.

Westeros deserves a ruler who knows what she/he's doing! Sansa is the only Stark who should go any where near the Iron Throne

I find it ironic that you'd say that Jon, who served as Lord Commander would know less what he's doing than Sansa Stark? I love the character Sansa, and do think she's got plenty of redeeming qualities, but as of right now, she's extremely naive, and certainly hasn't done anything to show me she'd be a good leader. Maybe she'll get there, but it's like you're expecting all this development out of Sansa, and none out of Jon.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

People's points don't make any sense

1. Jon won't be KitN

2. Jon won't be Rickon's regent

3. Everyone will support a Tully's son over some random woman's son

1. I've never said that Jon would be KitN, so please don't even bring that in to our conversation.

2. Agreed, but because he will be King of Westeros, IMO.

3. The some random woman here we're talking about is Lyanna Stark, right?

The Targaryens no longer have a claim to the throne: they won it by force and they lost it through force, the only way Dany and Aegon can get it back is with FORCE

Unless of course, the Baratheon line is all dead... But what we're talking about here is a claimant. Which is just something to get people to rally behind.

Aegon comes before Jon actually; he's older and he's Elia's son

Well if he's actually Rhaegar's son, but I'm not sure that's settled...

No one's going to care or believe R+L=J, especially when Jon decides to live in denial.

This "Jon in denial" stuff is simply your opinion, it's not fact.

And I think there would be a lot of people interested in a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, actually.

Who looks like a Targaryen?

Who has the support of Rhaegar's close friend?

Who has a vast army?

Whose defeated Stormsend?

Who has 20,000 untouched Dornish spears behind them?

Who has Varys?

I know who I'd believe was Rhaegar's son

None of which does him much good if he's killed, or found to not be Rhaegar's son, as his army would desert him...

Back to topic:

Rickon will be lord of Winterfell, he'll bend the knee so that Sansa can be queen

Or Jon as King...

[Tiki]

Rickon as Hodor's son for KiTN.

[Tywin Manderly]

Rickon!!

[Pikachu101]

1. I've never said that Jon would be KitN, so please don't even bring that in to our conversation.

2. Agreed, but because he will be King of Westeros, IMO.

3. The some random woman here we're talking about is Lyanna Stark, right?

Unless of course, the Baratheon line is all dead... But what we're talking about here is a claimant. Which is just something to get people to rally behind.

Well if he's actually Rhaegar's son, but I'm not sure that's settled...

This "Jon in denial" stuff is simply your opinion, it's not fact.

And I think there would be a lot of people interested in a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark, actually.

None of which does him much good if he's killed, or found to not be Rhaegar's son, as his army would desert him...

Or Jon as King...

So what if the Baratheon line dies out. There's still:

1. TWO Targaryens with a more believable claim

2. Cersei's younger queen (most likely Sansa) will play a role in deciding who rules

3. Players decide whose king/queen, and they won't choose Jon

It doesn't matter if Aegon isn't really Rhaegar's son, how is anyone going to find out? If I saw a silver haired, purple eyed prince who has an army and defeated the Stormslands v. A dark haired, grey eyed youth who is a bastard from the Wall I know who I'd believe was the liar.

I actually think it would be cool if Aegon was a pretender but only the readers find out. Everyone (including himself) thinks he's Rhaegar and Elia's son

Why would Jon accept the fact that Ned Stark isn't his father? His whole life has been revolved around this man, not some dead prince he cares nothing for! Ned Stark will always be Jon's father, and I don't think he'll be letting that go

Why would anyone be interested in some bastard from the Wall when there's Dany and Aegon? Like I said before the players decide whose on the throne and they're not choosing Jon.

Varys: Aegon/Dany

LF: Sansa

Olenna: the strongest candidate for Margaery to marry, and that would be Aegon

King Jon is a terrible idea, quite frankly any Stark king/queen that isn't Sansa is a terrible idea. Hasn't Westeros suffered enough with clueless rulers?

Rickon should be Lord of Winterfell and Sansa should be queen.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

So what if the Baratheon line dies out. There's still:

1. TWO Targaryens with a more believable claim

2. Cersei's younger queen (most likely Sansa) will play a role in deciding who rules

3. Players decide whose king/queen, and they won't choose Jon

Why would anyone be interested in some bastard from the Wall when there's Dany and Aegon? Like I said before the players decide whose on the throne and they're not choosing Jon.

Varys: Aegon/Dany

LF: Sansa

Olenna: the strongest candidate for Margaery to marry, and that would be Aegon

1. I personally believe Dany and Aegon will be dead by the end of the series.

2. Just because someone takes over queen after Cersei, doesn't mean they'll be queen at the end, and for the record I think it's Margery.

3. Exactly, and Sansa (as Lady of the Vale) would probably support Jon, as would Rickon (as Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North), and Howland Reed, and Sam Tarly (rightful heir to Randall Tarly if the NW should be disbanded), and probably Edmure Tully. Dorne probably wouldn't seeing as how Jon would be the son of someone other than Elia. Of course, if Aegon and Dany are dead, they'll either have to break away, or support the other's choice, and who knows, maybe Arianne could fulfill the agreement and marry Jon to give their support.

It doesn't matter if Aegon isn't really Rhaegar's son, how is anyone going to find out? If I saw a silver haired, purple eyed prince who has an army and defeated the Stormslands v. A dark haired, grey eyed youth who is a bastard from the Wall I know who I'd believe was the liar.

I actually think it would be cool if Aegon was a pretender but only the readers find out. Everyone (including himself) thinks he's Rhaegar and Elia's son

Well there's lots of ways. Illyrio and Varys certainly know the truth (now whether they could be persuaded to tell it is obviously another matter), Bran could discover it, whoever his real parents are would potentially know. Whomever supposedly smuggled him away in the first place would know... etc...

Why would Jon accept the fact that Ned Stark isn't his father? His whole life has been revolved around this man, not some dead prince he cares nothing for! Ned Stark will always be Jon's father, and I don't think he'll be letting that go

Accepting his real parentage doesn't force him to think of Ned as anything other than a father figure to him, in fact, it was a pretty big sacrifice by Ned to keep his mother's secret, and to raise Jon as his own.

When kids find out they're adopted, it doesn't generally make them feel any less affection for their adoptive parents.

[adant]

In thinking about how this King in the North heir business will play out I couldn't help but notice some possible foreshadowing towards a possible outcome.

It seems to me that there are a number of parallels between Jon Snow and Egg, or Aegon the Unlikely.

-Egg was obviously his namesake, Unlikely, he was not supposed to be King. Bastards aren't supposed to be King's either.

-Egg's line was CHOSEN over a number of other claimants, the Starks as a house and in particular the line of Ned Stark were chosen by the Northern Lords and are widely respected by a number of Lords not in the North.

-Egg was raised humbly, so as to make him a better man, Jon has lived humbly and even served. One could see his stewardship to the Old Bear as a parallel of Egg and Dunk

-Maester Aemon himself mistakes Jon for Egg, I believe when he wakes up from his dream that he was old.

-Egg was the 4th son of a 4th son, Jon, being a bastard, is in the line of succession the 4th son of Eddard Stark(what the realm believes), Robb reinforces this when he tells Catelyn "my father had 4 sons"

-Then there's also the ties with "Kill the boy and let the man be born"

-And finally Egg ascended to the throne after the abdication of his brother with a better claim.

Who's to say Rickon will even want the crown? Think of the associations he must have with anything King related: his father goes to live with the King and dies, his brother becomes a King and dies taking his mother with him, everything that Rickon has lost has been because of a crown. It seems highly plausible that he will abdicate his claim in favor of letting his better suited brother take the crown and remain Lord of Winterfell.

[Pikachu101]

@TheTowerOfJoy what part of WESTEROS DESERVES A RULER WHO KNOWS WHAT HE/SHE'S DOING don't you understand?

It's exactly why no Stark, except for Sansa, should be a ruler. They're all clueless and the South would eat them alive