Tyrion and Stannis.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

Stannis is a rare commodity, an extremely experienced military commander who has naval and field experience. He has won naval battles and sieges. He has experienced commanders under him who follow and respect him.

Tyrion has fought briefly in the field and I would imagine that the tactical lessons he has had have been from the many books he reads or perhaps from his father,(although I'm not sure how readily he would have listened to Tywin). Tyrions main support is from Bronn, experienced yes, but would that stretch to generalship?

At Blackwater Tyrion wins. This for me has been a really big stretch.

Was Stannis overconfident? That can often lead to military disaster. Or is Tyrion an unmatched genius?

Does book learnin beat practical, hardened experience?

[blood of the dragoon]

Stannis made a tactical error in landing where he did. I like Tyrion more than stannis, but he got lucky on the blackwater.

[danm_999]

The Blackwater wasn't really an exclusively Tyrion vs. Stannis affair TBH. It seemed that way in Tyrion's head, but that's because it was his POV.

As we see from Davos POV, Ser Imry Florent was in charge of the fleet, and Stannis was with the army south of the Blackwater. It was Imry who made the mistake of racing up past Tyrion's chain towers, and racing into Tyrion's wildfire ships. Maybe Stannis' would have made the same decision, maybe not.

Nor did Tyrion really win the Blackwater alone. Had the Tyrells and Tywin not arrived in the nick of time, Stannis still would have won.

So was Stannis overconfident? A bit probably. But I'd say his biggest mistake was who he choose to lead his navy (Imry). The other big factor in this defeat was a severely bad piece of luck concerning the Tyrell-Lannister alliance that sprung up behind his back.

[Woman of War]

Probably KL could not have been defended for much longer if there had not been the support from outside. The city would have been lost and sacked and its inhabitants slaughtered in the end without Tywin's army coming.

But Tyrion was able to use creativity and making use of the poor means he had in a most intelligent manner. And thinking outside the box happens exactly when you do not only follow experience and the usual paths of how things are done, here not simply applying traditional ways in how to defend a city. So Tyrion is certainly not an "unmatched" genius, a character like that, "unmatched", would be poor writing. But it is indeed intelligent creativity based on book knowledge that beats experience here. He had wildfire and he he turned its application upside down. Though Tyrion may have read a lot about strategy and warfare, his high intelligence enabled him, and that is actually the definition of intelligence, to apply knowledge on unknown situations while not barring the door to creative thinking with following the books. Stannis simply did not include the unexpected into his thinking.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

as Cersei said, Tyrion won the Battle of the Blackwater thanks to his trick with wildfire

[Nezzer]

as Cersei said, Tyrion won the Battle of the Blackwater thanks to his trick with wildfire

To me, Tyrion's tactic of killing Stannis's scouts (the most basic tactic of them all) was more decisive than the wildfire trick. Even with the wildfire, I think Tyrion would have lost if Tywin and the Tyrells hadn't come to the rescue. If Stannis knew through his scouts that Tywin was marching on the capital, with the Tyrells backing him, he wouldn't be taken by surprise and crushed the way he was. The wildfire was a good trick, it delayed Stannis, but not enough to make a difference. Stannis didn't have enough time to breach the walls, even without the widlfire trick. He was doomed to failure before the battle even started.

[IRON BANK]

I definitly think Stannis got out manuvered on two fronts in this battle. first off, he didnt realize that Tyrion had dragon fire and the big chain to trap him in. Secondly he went alone. Stannis had to realize any prolonged engagement would trap him between the walls of KL and any other force from behind. The reason I'm saying this is even if the Tyrells don't join the Lannisters Tywin could still take him from behind trapping him between the walls and the city. Also Stannis did not take the oppurtunity to approach the Starks or the Tyrells.

[Lehnaru]

Tyrion had the advantage of wildfire, his new chain, and a bunch of wildlings to kill Stannis' scouts, none of which Stannis knew of due to the latter and his lack of spies in King's Landing. Tyrion also had Imry Florent; Stannis' overconfident and arrogant admiral. Finally, Tyrion also unknowingly had the surprise of Tywin and the Tyrells (thanks to Edmure and Robb). If it weren't for all of those variables, Stannis would have sacked the city and had three golden haired heads on spikes. Unfortunately, his vast underestimatation the situation paired with his lack of imagination sealed his fate.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

To me, Tyrion's tactic of killing Stannis's scouts (the most basic tactic of them all) was more decisive than the wildfire trick. Even with the wildfire, I think Tyrion would have lost if Tywin and the Tyrells hadn't come to the rescue. If Stannis knew through his scouts that Tywin was marching on the capital, with the Tyrells backing him, he wouldn't be taken by surprise and crushed the way he was. The wildfire was a good trick, it delayed Stannis, but not enough to make a difference. Stannis didn't have enough time to breach the walls, even without the widlfire trick. He was doomed to fail.

Totally forgot about that, it was the Mountain Clans that did that right? I don't even think I picked up on that until the third time reading ACoK.

As for Tyrion getting lucky, you can't underestimate the luck factor when it comes to "Renly's Ghost" (ie Garlan Tyrell in Renly's armor) scaring the shit out of half of Stannis' army. To be sure, Tyrion's wits and outside the box thinking were a major factor, but the luck can't be denied.

[Nezzer]

Totally forgot about that, it was the Mountain Clans that did that right? I don't even think I picked up on that until the third time reading ACoK.

As for Tyrion getting lucky, you can't underestimate the luck factor when it comes to "Renly's Ghost" (ie Garlan Tyrell in Renly's armor) scaring the shit out of half of Stannis' army. To be sure, Tyrion's wits and outside the box thinking were a major factor, but the luck can't be denied.

Yes, he sent his clansmen to the Kingswood to kill the scouts. It was his most useful deed in the battle IMHO. And about his luck, I can't argue with that. Tyrion is by far the luckiest character in this series. His plot armor thoughtout all the books is so thick it annoys me. He's had more near-death experiences than Beric Dondarrion and has never died a single time.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

Yes, he sent his clansmen to the Kingswood to kill the scouts. It was his most useful deed in the battle IMHO. And about his lukc, I can't argue with that. Tyrion is by far the luckiest character in this series. His plot armor thoughtout all the books is so thick it annoys me. He's had more near-death experiences than Beric Dondarrion and has never died a single time.

I suppose in a series where "no one" is immune, SOMEONE has to be immune.

[Nezzer]

I suppose in a series where "no one" is immune, SOMEONE has to be immune.

[Nyrhex]

Tyrion has fought briefly in the field and I would imagine that the tactical lessons he has had have been from the many books he reads or perhaps from his father,(although I'm not sure how readily he would have listened to Tywin). Tyrions main support is from Bronn, experienced yes, but would that stretch to generalship?

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

If someone is immune, just don't make it so obvious by making the character escape death all the time :P

GRRM has said many times that Tyrion's his favourite. If and when he actually dies, I'm sure it won't be until ADOS... but maybe that's what he WANTS us to think!

[Woman of War]

Tyrion's death, if it ever happens, may be the episode 9 event of the last season. D&D will hobble on their knees to Martin's doorstep if the author considers to write Dinklage out before.

[TalalOfDorne]

The Lannister-Tyrell forces are what saved the city, and prevented Stannis from winning. If it wasnt for that Tyrion would have lost.

[Howie Manderly]

The Blackwater wasn't really an exclusively Tyrion vs. Stannis affair TBH. It seemed that way in Tyrion's head, but that's because it was his POV.

As we see from Davos POV, Ser Imry Florent was in charge of the fleet, and Stannis was with the army south of the Blackwater. It was Imry who made the mistake of racing up past Tyrion's chain towers, and racing into Tyrion's wildfire ships. Maybe Stannis' would have made the same decision, maybe not.

Nor did Tyrion really win the Blackwater alone. Had the Tyrells and Tywin not arrived in the nick of time, Stannis still would have won.

So was Stannis overconfident? A bit probably. But I'd say his biggest mistake was who he choose to lead his navy (Imry). The other big factor in this defeat was a severely bad piece of luck concerning the Tyrell-Lannister alliance that sprung up behind his back.

This. It was Imry who was overconfident and led the fleet into a trap. Had Davos been in command, the fleet may have survived but the Tyrell army would still have defeated Stannis.

[Dire Rabbit]

A few oversights from Stannis, both tactical and strategic.

Strategic failure to anticipate the Tyrells jumping in bed with the Lannisters; leaving a potentially hostile army behind your back is a bad idea.

Tactical failure; failure to recce in force or guard his flank and rear sufficiently. Mountain clans or no, if sufficient effort had been made to sweep them aside $3 wouldn't have been caught in the flank and routed.

Tactical failure; to anticipate the use go fire ships or other "dirty tricks" in the blackwater, and the assault on the walls. Stannis and his commanders seem to have felt that a rapid assault would sweep aside any resistance. Perhaps they were lulled into a false sense of security by the absence of a proven battlefield commander. It was a costly error.

I agree with the original poster, Stannis's rep as an experienced and successful battlefield commander sits at odds with the crushing defeat he suffered at the blackwater. The only thing that makes sense is that he is driven to some kind of madness to "right the wrongs" and take the throne that by right is his.

Tyrions performance is nothing special, apart from him leading sallies personally. He used his resources wisely, took advantage of terrain and walls, and did a good job of holding off a determined assault. He still would have gone down if Tywyn and the Tyrells hadn't arrived. It would have been a costly victory for Stannis though.

[Team Martell]

Stannis' biggest mistake was not returning to King's Landing after Eddard became Hand.

Had he been there to discover the truth with Eddard, there'd have been no war. Joffrey wouldn't have been king for 5 seconds, Renly would have chickened out of his plot, Ned would have merged his men with Stannis' to enter the throne room kicking Lannister/Gold Cloak ass.

Then again, there'd be no story either.

[Sullen]

I suppose in a series where "no one" is immune, SOMEONE has to be immune.

Tyrion's plot armour is equal only to Dany's and Jon's.