Blue Winter Rose - Sansa Stark?

[J. Stargaryen]

I believe R+L=J... I just don't buy 'winter roses' = Jon. If you include motherhood in the 'winter rose' symbolism then the exchange works just as well (now Rhaegar is symbolically making Lyanna a mother... and a royal mother at that). This interpretation has the added advantage of making sense when her crown turns black and dies.

Jon's birth led to Lyanna's death. Advantage nullified. I've also offered up some other possible explanations revolving around Jon being a member of the NW (black) and his possible death at the end of ADwD.

Motherhood is inherently involved since we're talking about Stark daughters giving birth to sons. However, I don't think it was "motherhood" growing from a chink in a wall of ice that Dany saw in the HotU.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Well, if she does run off with the Hound--or anyone, but the Hound seems the only likely candidate for a replay of the Robert/Rhaegar/Lyanna situation--it will no doubt end as badly for her as it did for Lyanna, so it's not exactly something to be wished for. GRRM seems pretty clear on this: "You can choose romantic love over everything else, as long as you know it's going to blow up in your face with horrifying, disastrous consequences. CHOOSE ACCORDINGLY." If Sansa ever decides to chuck it all in favour of romantic love and decides to follow her heart, it will probably be the last thing she ever does, just as it was Lyanna's (assuming Lyanna ran away willingly with Rhaegar).

The Bael/Baelish link does make me think Petyr has the edge in the "Father of Sansa's Bastard Child" sweepstakes.

THIS! It is known.

[greensleeves]

Jon's birth led to Lyanna's death. Advantage nullified. I've also offered up some other possible explanations revolving around Jon being a member of the NW (black) and his possible death at the end of ADwD.

Motherhood is inherently involved since we're talking about Stark daughters giving birth to sons. However, I don't think it was "motherhood" growing from a chink in a wall of ice that Dany saw in the HotU.

I'm sorry. Let me fix that:

This interpretation has the added advantage of making sense without involving incredibly contrived, twisted logic when her crown turns black and dies.

[Roadside Rose]

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love & Beauty, so it was apt that he gave her a crown of flowers that she loved. That's how I would interpret it literally.

He gave her that crown in front of his wife Elia, whom everybody expected would receive the crown from him. And secondly, Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. That would certainly upset a lot of people in the audience.

And metaphorically speaking, I'd believe that placing the crown of blue roses on her lap - symbolizes making her a mother (as greensleeves said).

The reason I say this is because there is a similar line in the Buddhist scripture about sexual impurity. (I'm not Buddhist so if I interpret it wrong, feel free to correct me).

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sensual misconduct, he abstains from sensual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man.

I believe here 'crowned with flowers by another man' represent a woman who has a child with another man.

The blue winter flowers have never been exclusively mentioned with Jon. They have always been mentioned alongside a Stark maiden. And if they only meant Jon & Lyanna, then Bael the Bard's tale would have no significance in the story.

[Ygrain]

The blue winter flowers have never been exclusively mentioned with Jon. They have always been mentioned alongside a Stark maiden. And if they only meant Jon & Lyanna, then Bael the Bard's tale would have no significance in the story.

Not "a" but "the one" Stark maiden and no other.

And the story of Bael does have a meaning - it subtly establishes the connection that a Stark daughter had a son by a lovely singing guy and provides a parallel piece for the backstory, similarly as Jorah's victory for Lynesse is a hint why Rhaegar was unstoppable that day at Harrenhall.

[Roadside Rose]

Not "a" but "the one" Stark maiden and no other.

Lyanna Stark & The Stark Maiden abducted/taken by Bael - that makes it 2

[lojzelote]

It's an interesting idea, but the connection between the chink and Ned's fatherly love feels very loose to me. I still believe that the vision pertains to Dany meeting Jon on the literal Wall of ice when she comes to fight the Others. After all, if he's truy her secret nephew, it has the potential to be one of the most important moments in her life, so it should deserve its place in tHotU.

[Ygrain]

Lyanna Stark & The Stark Maiden abducted/taken by Bael - that makes it 2

Not sure how to express with English articles that it's just those particular two :-)

[Roadside Rose]

Motherhood is inherently involved since we're talking about Stark daughters giving birth to sons. However, I don't think it was "motherhood" growing from a chink in a wall of ice that Dany saw in the HotU.

This prophecy been addressed in the theory on page 1.

[So NOT a Maiden Fair]

Hahahaha, isn't "it probably won't end well" basically ASOIAF in a nutshell? The only better summary would be that uttered by the TV show's Ramsay: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

In all seriousness, I thought the blue winter rose/wall of ice image was a reference to Jon Snow. Lyanna's flower growing out of a wall of ice? A big wall of ice? You know, like the Wall? Not super subtle there, GRRM.

Whatever the blue winter rose symbolizes in relation to Dany, though, it seems like there's a positive association there: the rose "fills the air with sweetness," after all. It's hard to know, though, since the other two images in that set of three seem pretty clearly associated with death: the silver trotting towards a "darkling stream" (reminds me of the "darkling plain" from Dover Beach, associated with oblivion and existential despair in GRRM's A Song for Lya), and the corpse on the ship. I've also seen speculation that this particular set of three refers to Dany, Jon and Tyrion--the silver is Dany, the rose is Jon, and the corpse on the ship is Tyrion--which makes sense if you buy that they're going to be tied together one way or another when everything shakes out (three heads of the dragon, Targs, what have you). On the other hand, if these three images do represent Dany, Jon and Tyrion respectively, maybe that's just a hint that Jon--the rose filling the air with sweetness--is going to survive, while Dany--the silver trotting to the darkling stream--and Tyrion--the corpse on the ship--are going to die.

As for Sansa's connection to the blue winter rose, I think there is one, but I think it ties into her storyline with Petyr Baelish. Baelish = Bael the Bard? I'm not super keen on the parallel, since the Stark daughter in question had a pretty grim tale (and wound up falling in love with her abductor), but that seems a much clearer link to me than a Sansa/Dany connection.

Yeah, Dany's already two husbands in, although I think that she probably won't make it past three husbands, what with the importance of threes for Dany in light of the HotU prophecies.

Woa, the BAELish thing was... genious! Not sure if that was the point of all that, meaning Sansa could fall in love with him, but it fits really nicely. I never realized that. (I had the same reaction with the Arstan = Barristan thing... it was so clear before me and still I couldn't see it coming lol)

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm sorry. Let me fix that:

It's hilarious that you would say my interpretation is "incredibly contrived, twisted logic," since it's literally exactly the same as yours, but instead of stopping at "motherhood" I point out that her baby is Jon. Literally one added layer of specificity.

Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love & Beauty, so it was apt that he gave her a crown of flowers that she loved. That's how I would interpret it literally.

He gave her that crown in front of his wife Elia, whom everybody expected would receive the crown from him. And secondly, Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. That would certainly upset a lot of people in the audience.

And metaphorically speaking, I'd believe that placing the crown of blue roses on her lap - symbolizes making her a mother (as greensleeves said).

The reason I say this is because there is a similar line in the Buddhist scripture about sexual impurity. (I'm not Buddhist so if I interpret it wrong, feel free to correct me).

I believe here 'crowned with flowers by another man' represent a woman who has a child with another man.

The blue winter flowers have never been exclusively mentioned with Jon. They have always been mentioned alongside a Stark maiden. And if they only meant Jon & Lyanna, then Bael the Bard's tale would have no significance in the story.

The blue roses are never explicitly said to represent Jon because the symbolism is hidden. Blue roses do represent the mysterious, among other things, after all.

And, sure, Rhaegar made Lyanna a mother - of Jon.

[Nausicaä]

while possible, I just don't see it. Sansa has the Tully's looks. While she may very well be more a Stark, thus far the Blue Rose hasn't been a symbol for her.

I think the blue flower in Dany's prophecy is meant to symbolize Jon too, but rose as a symbol has cropped up in Sansa's story and her story is connected to Jon's (here and here), so I wouldn't rule out a future encounter with winter roses for her. She is denied connection with Winterfell through physical means (as there are no weirwood trees in either KL or the Eyrie and obviously no winter roses either), but she is a true daughter of Winterfell and it would make sense for her (In my mind, at least) to be given a blue rose at one point as a counterpoint to the completely meaningless red rose once given her by Loras, which was tied to all of the illusions and falseness of the South that Sansa now rejects. Though the weirwood tress are much more powerful as a symbol for Sansa's story than this somewhat vague connection.

[J. Stargaryen]

This prophecy been addressed in the theory on page 1.

Since there is actually a "wall of ice" in ASoIaF there is a burden on you to show that this phrase is symbolic. So far you have not done so, instead offering your opinion as a substitute.

Woa, the BAELish thing was... genious! Not sure if that was the point of all that, meaning Sansa could fall in love with him, but it fits really nicely. I never realized that. (I had the same reaction with the Arstan = Barristan thing... it was so clear before me and still I couldn't see it coming lol)

Fire Eater added the nice touch that Baelish left a rose in place of Sansa in the form of Margaery Tyrell; i.e., Sansa was supposed to be Joffrey's bride.

[Nausicaä]

The stories I know involving blue roses usually have the blue rose associated with immortality/youth (Baba yaga). Blue roses don't occur in nature and are thus natural to use as a symbol for magic or the goal of a magical quest.

Could you tell me what source these stories came from? I would appreciate any kind of an answer, but especially if you could link me to a specific book(s), instead of an internet source. I am Russian and know our tales fairly well and blue roses and Baba Yaga are just.. not a thing. I was so surprised by your post that I googled it, thinking that I may be forgetting/ignorant of something, but all I found on the Russian-speaking side of the Internet were posts by people who similarly discovered this sentence in English Wikipedia: "In Slavic mythology one may be granted wishes by bringing a blue rose to Baba Yaga" and were wondering where the hell did that come from. No one could answer that as far as I can tell.

In general, I noticed that there is some information about Russian fairy and folk tales in English that Russian people are miraculously unaware of. I have been reading ursulav's wonderful annotated fairy-tales (they are very funny, check them out!) and one of them was The Wonderful Birch, supposedly the Russian version of Cinderella, but of which I have never heard in my life and which I couldn't find in my own language no matter how hard I tried. It came from Andrew Lang's Red Fairy Book, so I guess it was only published in English. I guess these stories that connected Baba Yaga and blue roses could have been too, but it is very annoying to me that I'm unable to see where exactly they came from. Even if those stories were only recorded by English-speaking collectors of folk and fairy-tales from oral tradition and published by them, there should be at least some trace of them in Russian, as the fairy-tales are so often connected.

I'm about to check some works of some of our folklorists, but I suspect that I won't find much about that there either. Baba Yaga is not usually a figure that does something in exchange for something else (ETA: wait, that may be wrong, but it's not an immediate association for me, even though she does sometimes help the hero. I'll check if she helps without asking for something in return and if so, what does she ask for) and she's not immediately associated with youth or immortality either.

[Ygrain]

Could you tell me what source these stories came from? I would appreciate any kind of an answer, but especially if you could link me to a specific book(s), instead of an internet source. I am Russian and know our tales fairly well and blue roses and Baba Yaga are just.. not a thing. I was so surprised by your post that I googled it, thinking that I may be forgetting/ignorant of something, but all I found on the Russian-speaking side of the Internet were posts by people who similarly discovered this sentence in English Wikipedia: "In Slavic mythology one may be granted wishes by bringing a blue rose to Baba Yaga" and were wondering where the hell did that come from. No one could answer that as far as I can tell.

In general, I noticed that there is some information about Russian fairy and folk tales in English that Russian people are miraculously unaware of. I have been reading ursulav's wonderful annotated fairy-tales (they are very funny, check them out!) and one of them was The Wonderful Birch, supposedly the Russian version of Cinderella, but of which I have never heard in my life and which I couldn't find in my own language no matter how hard I tried. It came from Andrew Lang's Red Fairy Book, so I guess it was only published in English. I guess these stories that connected Baba Yaga and blue roses could have been too, but it is very annoying to me that I'm unable to see where exactly they came from. Even if those stories were only recorded by English-speaking collectors of folk and fairy-tales from oral tradition and published by them, there should be at least some trace of them in Russian, as the fairy-tales are so often connected.

I'm about to check some works of some of our folklorists, but I suspect that I won't find much about that there either. Baba Yaga is not usually a figure that does something in exchange for something else (ETA: wait, that may be wrong, but it's not an immediate association for me, even though she does sometimes help the hero. I'll check if she helps without asking for something in return and if so, what does she ask for) and she's not immediately associated with youth or immortality either.

Glad you've posted this, the Baba Yaga reference made me raise my brows, as well, but as I'm not Russian, I didn't comment. I did do my portion of reading fairy tales (basically anything I could get my hands on. the majority being Central and Eastern European), and to my best knowledge, there is absolutely no connection between any woods witches and roses of any colour. There are roses in the Sleeping Beauty, and in Beauty and the Beast (white), and there is some shapechanging into a rose bush, either by a witch trying to lure and destroy the hero, or by the hero escaping from a witch. None of these roses were blue.

The Wonderful Birch contains a lot of elements present in other fairy tales but this particular version is unfamiliar to me, either.

ETA: the only connection between Baba Yaga and youth I can think of is that from the mythology interpretation - that she is what remained from the Maiden-Mother-Crone matriarchal Godess and used to symbolize fertility and rebirth.

[Nausicaä]

Glad you've posted this, the Baba Yaga reference made me raise my brows, as well, but as I'm not Russian, I didn't comment. I did do my portion of reading fairy tales (basically anything I could get my hands on. the majority being Central and Eastern European), and to my best knowledge, there is absolutely no connection between any woods witches and roses of any colour. There are roses in the Sleeping Beauty, and in Beauty and the Beast (white), and there is some shapechanging into a rose bush, either by a witch trying to lure and destroy the hero, or by the hero escaping from a witch. None of these roses were blue.

The Wonderful Birch contains a lot of elements present in other fairy tales but this particular version is unfamiliar to me, either.

ETA: the only connection between Baba Yaga and youth I can think of is that from the mythology interpretation - that she is what remained from the Maiden-Mother-Crone matriarchal Godess and used to symbolize fertility and rebirth.

I'm glad someone else noticed it too. I thought after I posted that maybe there were mentions of that in other Slavic languages, but googling 'rose' in Czech and 'Baba Jaga' gave me nothing, so I'm glad to have a confirmation from someone who is well-read in Central and Eastern European tales in general that it's not a usual thing there either.

It is really strange to connect a woods witch and roses and it seemed off to people whose discussions I found too. I forgot to mention that when flowers are mentioned in our fairy-tales, the type of the flower is usually not named and if they are, it's more likely to be a forest flower, not a cultivated garden flower. The fairy-tale flowers that I can name off the top of my head are the fern flower, the scarlet flower from our most popular (later) version of the Beauty and the Beast, snowdrops (but again, the immediate association is with The Twelve Months, but that's a tale that was written in 20th century).. And in any case, the magical plant is more likely to be a magic apple or some sort of a tree or a grass.

And besides, the first mention of roses in Russia dates to 16th century. I guess older tales could have been contaminated with elements that came along much later, but.. I don't know, it just pings me as weird.

[Ygrain]

You'd perhaps have to google "ježibaba" but there are no results for this, either :-)

[DavosSeaworthy]

Quite often the simplest explaination is the right one. The Blue Rose is directly associated with Lyanna, the wall of ice seems pretty obvious, and Jon is at the Wall, which is made of ice. It is rather simple.

[greensleeves]

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Hey guys, it's something I remember (I'm not sure from where)... I read *a lot* in my youth. Anyways, I'm pretty sure it was Baba Yaga, but I could be wrong. She's the one with the chicken feet house right? I definitely remember someone being trapped into a quest for blue roses.

As the US is a nation of immigrants it's not that unusual to find folklore slightly different than the 'homeland'.

Edit: a quick google search of blue rose baba yaga reveals I am not making this up.

One link:

http://russiapedia.rt.com/of-russian-origin/baba-yaga/

Under Personality-

"It is said she ages one year every time she is asked a question, which probably explains her reluctance to help. This effect, however, can be reversed with a special blend of tea made with blue roses."

[Nausicaä]

Hey guys, it's something I remember (I'm not sure from where)... I read *a lot* in my youth. Anyways, I'm pretty sure it was Baba Yaga, but I could be wrong. She's the one with the chicken feet house right? I definitely remember someone being trapped into a quest for blue roses.

Edit: a quick google search of blue rose baba yaga reveals I am not making this up.

One link:

http://russiapedia.r...igin/baba-yaga/

Under Personality-

"It is said she ages one year every time she is asked a question, which probably explains her reluctance to help. This effect, however, can be reversed with a special blend of tea made with blue roses."

Thank you for answering. I wasn't at all saying you were making it up. The discussions I found are from 2006, which means that that bit of info was in the English wiki in 2006 and in any case, there's tons of mentions of that, but they are all in English and all without legitimate sources. I was just saying that it seemed really weird to me.

Thank you for the link. Doesn't tell much, but it was an interesting, unintentionally hilarious read. I love the language they are using to talk about an ages-old character: 'martial status', 'Baba Yaga is often represented as little, ugly, with a huge and distorted nose and long teeth. This can be explained by the lady's place of residence. Far from the civilized world, her hut doesn't have any modern facilities like hot running water or shower', 'Baba Yaga knows a recipe of a special potion that helps her when needed to turn young. Unfortunately she has been known to use this her skill not to arrange her single private life, but to misguide and deceit strangers'. Haha.

As the US is a nation of immigrants it's not that unusual to find folklore slightly different than the 'homeland'.

Variations in folklore are a completely normal occurrence, which is why I wanted to know where that version of Baba Yage came from and when it appeared. But I don't really get what you mean about the US being a nation of the immigrants (are you saying that the version of the story that you read was written by a Russian-American and they made up the thing? that it was mixed with traditions from other cultures?)