The gods, the religions, and Magic

[Ser Pounce FTW]

OP, interesting to link the "dieties" to natural elements. While everyone seems hell bent on saying there are no gods and no religion, all early religions began as a way to explain the unexplainable. And like it or not, there are quite a few unexplainables n the world of ASOIAF. Mladen mentioned the humans that are doing supernatural things. While I agree that the emphasis Martin wants us to take from the books is the importance and why and what decisions one makes, we can't ignore that some people were given "gifts" that others don't have.

Why? Also, how did they get these gifts? Who can explain it? No one. So is it so far fetched to say R'hollor gave Thoros his powers? Is it too far fetched to say the old gods have given Bloodraven and Bran their powers? Dismissing the dieties as non existent ignores the fact that supernatural powers with intent and selection has been prominent in the stories. I don't think the point is which is more powerful but again, what is done with that power.

[mrunderhill]

OP, interesting to link the "dieties" to natural elements. While everyone seems hell bent on saying there are no gods and no religion, all early religions began as a way to explain the unexplainable. And like it or not, there are quite a few unexplainables n the world of ASOIAF. Mladen mentioned the humans that are doing supernatural things. While I agree that the emphasis Martin wants us to take from the books is the importance and why and what decisions one makes, we can't ignore that some people were given "gifts" that others don't have.

Why? Also, how did they get these gifts? Who can explain it? No one. So is it so far fetched to say R'hollor gave Thoros his powers? Is it too far fetched to say the old gods have given Bloodraven and Bran their powers? Dismissing the dieties as non existent ignores the fact that supernatural powers with intent and selection has been prominent in the stories. I don't think the point is which is more powerful but again, what is done with that power.

I would go further. When someone has the powers of Bloodraven how can you argue he is not a god? Not all gods are immortal and not all gods created things. Bloodravens powers are so superior to a normal human, that he would be worshiped as a god.

[Mladen]

OP, interesting to link the "dieties" to natural elements. While everyone seems hell bent on saying there are no gods and no religion, all early religions began as a way to explain the unexplainable. And like it or not, there are quite a few unexplainables n the world of ASOIAF. Mladen mentioned the humans that are doing supernatural things. While I agree that the emphasis Martin wants us to take from the books is the importance and why and what decisions one makes, we can't ignore that some people were given "gifts" that others don't have.

Why? Also, how did they get these gifts? Who can explain it? No one. So is it so far fetched to say R'hollor gave Thoros his powers? Is it too far fetched to say the old gods have given Bloodraven and Bran their powers? Dismissing the dieties as non existent ignores the fact that supernatural powers with intent and selection has been prominent in the stories. I don't think the point is which is more powerful but again, what is done with that power.

I am not dismissing dieties, I am dismissing a logic in which one religion is 'truer' than another, especially since we haven't any proof for such claim. Yes, some people have gifts and most likely they came from some magical source, deity or something else. But, in world of ASOIAF, there is no universal supernatural force that is uniqe in every way. Bran and Bloodraven are certainly not the only greenseers in history, and that makes Old Gods more grounded than any religion in our world. Also, we have to separate terms magic and religion. They are connected but not the same. Magic doesn't only originate from some deity, it can also be human power. Yes, we can't say for sure that Red priests didn't get their powers from deity, but we also can't say R`hllor killed Balon, Robb or Joffrey. And difference between magical and divine is huge in many cases. Since magic erupted with the birth of dragons, can we say that deities were asleep all this time? If the magic came from Gods, how come red Priests for 150 years weren't that capable?

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

The first men most certainly do not have CoTF blood.

Of course the First Men have CotF blood. Why else would warg/greenseer abilities be limited only to those with the blood of the First Men? We're talking about the OLD gods, the deities that originally belonged only to the CotF, and were later adopted by the First Men in a pact that most likely involved a good deal of intermarriages. Don't believe me? Name one human with warg/greenseer abilities without First Men blood.

While I do think that this would be a nice and aesthetically pleasing supermythology, I feel it has little to no basis in the text.

It rather seems to be inspired by a list of the religions where we've met the coolest sorcerers... but there are many feats of fire elemental magic that have no relation to R'hllor (Pyromancers, the Firemage guy in Qarth etc) and similarly for other elements, and some feats of magic are performed in the name of a god (e.g. MMD and the great shepherd), but he somehow still doesn't make your pantheon.

As there is no supernatural agency behind the magic followers of a religion perform discernible in the books, it would seem to me that your theory would actually work better if the gods are just cut out of it, leaving a system of elemental forces.

Actually, a more aesthetically pleasing pantheon would have included the Storm God, to complete the triple duality of life-death, fire-ice, water-air. However, I limited myself to supernatural phenomenon that the readers have actuality experienced, and really? There is nothing the Storm God (if he exists) has done to make himself evident. Do storms happen? Sure. Are they caused by supernatural means? There has been no evidence to support such a thing.

I never intended to say that the followers of one god were limited to one religion. Sure the firemages, pyromances, and Dany all use the power of the Red God, but the religion of R'hllor is the paramount example of the Red God's organized religion, so that's what I went with. I'm sure the gods don't concern themselves with such arbitrary organizations.

As to your last point, I believe you should read my introduction over again. I'm not saying that the gods are white-bearded wizards in the sky, but rather that they are elemental forces.

Why do Gods punish me with these threads?

I will say this again, for the 2 387 564th time. There is no such thing as more or less real religion. By definition, just like in our world, in ASOIAF, you can't say that one religion is more powerful than another, that one God is stronger than another. Basically, you can't say that someone else's beliefs are BS, like OP did. It would be like in our world that Christians brag about creating body of a man dead for 2000 years, and others can't. It doesn't work that way. We should learn to separate magic from religion. What makes you believe that Red God is sending visions to his priests, or worse, and completely wrong, that he had something in killing Kings by leeches? What makes R`hllor more real than Seven? Have we seen his power? No, we have seen some people performing magical rituals. It's same with Old Gods. Ordinary people, like Bran with supernatural power. They are not deities. They are people capable of doing something more. And, that's what matters. People act, not deities.

For the end, beliefs are what counts. Deity is as real as there are people believing in it. But, at the end, people are those that commit good or evil acts in God's name. Religion is true, real and strong as long as people believe in its preaches.

I'd say that the major difference is that our world is a rational one, where all stories of an invisible wizard in the sky are equally absurd, but the ASOIAF world is a fantasy. Supernatural power abounds in the world of ASOIAF, and some religions can accurately describe this power, and some can't. George has constructed a fantastical pantheon of gods for this world, and we can only look at the organized religions and try to figure out who is founded on truth, who is BS, and who is somewhere between.

[Mladen]

I'd say that the major difference is that our world is a rational one, where all stories of an invisible wizard in the sky are equally absurd, but the ASOIAF world is a fantasy. Supernatural power abounds in the world of ASOIAF, and some religions can accurately describe this power, and some can't. George has constructed a fantastical pantheon of gods for this world, and we can only look at the organized religions and try to figure out who is founded on truth, who is BS, and who is somewhere between.

It would work that way if the magic directly originates from the deities you mentioned and that they're involved in everything magical that's happened. And since we have actual proofs that magic and deities aren't necesserily connected, it makes strong case to believe that religion is niothing more than dogmatic, cultural belief. Because one thing is certain, if Starks were born on the South, they would believe in Seven, if they were born in some of Free Cities, they would have some other God. And that's what proves that Gods are cultural, not magical creation. All religions in ASOIAF are based upon beliefs, and people act upon them. That's what makes those religions equal in the Grand scheme.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Since magic erupted with the birth of dragons, can we say that deities were asleep all this time? If the magic came from Gods, how come red Priests for 150 years weren't that capable?

There is definitely a recent awakening which was signaled by the red comet however we don't know what the red priests were capable of before the story. We don't know who the great other is and we understand very little about Bloodraven. So we can't make definite statements about what is real and what isn't. The books may end with a very scientific explanation for everything. Or not. But at this time, there has been a great deal of evidence for the supernatural which is what many call "religion". I agree, however, Martin has not shown one to be the one true religion.

[mrunderhill]

It would work that way if the magic directly originates from the deities you mentioned and that they're involved in everything magical that's happened. And since we have actual proofs that magic and deities aren't necesserily connected, it makes strong case to believe that religion is niothing more than dogmatic, cultural belief. Because one thing is certain, if Starks were born on the South, they would believe in Seven, if they were born in some of Free Cities, they would have some other God. And that's what proves that Gods are cultural, not magical creation. All religions in ASOIAF are based upon beliefs, and people act upon them. That's what makes those religions equal in the Grand scheme.

If things are just cultural how can you explain Stannis converting to the Red God? Stannis saw effectual magic and converted. If I saw Bloodraven see the future, the past, take over multiple animals etc then I might convert to what he was preaching too.

Magic turns men into deities. What would you call Bloodraven?

EDIT

It's like Thor. He has powerful magic, wields a big hammer about and can make my life a misery if I don't follow what he says. I am probably going to worship him if he turned up on my doorstep.

[blood of the dragoon]

Of course the First Men have CotF blood. Why else would warg/greenseer abilities be limited only to those with the blood of the First Men? We're talking about the OLD gods, the deities that originally belonged only to the CotF, and were later adopted by the First Men in a pact that most likely involved a good deal of intermarriages. Don't believe me? Name one human with warg/greenseer abilities without First Men blood.

I understand that a pact was made, and that the first men took on the old gods.

I don't make the leap from there to cross-species reproduction.

[Mladen]

There is definitely a recent awakening which was signaled by the red comet however we don't know what the red priests were capable of before the story. We don't know who the great other is and we understand very little about Bloodraven. So we can't make definite statements about what is real and what isn't. The books may end with a very scientific explanation for everything. Or not. But at this time, there has been a great deal of evidence for the supernatural which is what many call "religion". I agree, however, Martin has not shown one to be the one true religion.

We know that Thoros said that he never had powers as he had since dragons were born again. He could have never seen anything in fires or resurrect people. For him, it was just an empty belief...

If things are just cultural how can you explain Stannis converting to the Red God? Stannis saw effectual magic and converted. If I saw Bloodraven see the future, the past, take over multiple animals etc then I might convert to what he was preaching too.

Magic turns men into deities. What would you call Bloodraven?

Stannis didn't see some great proof of Melisandre's power when he converted. It was more like a sense than proof. He got it when he found out her words about renly's death are true.

As for BR, he was born with the gift, so magic didn't turned him into deity, he was born that way.

[Leif]

I still don't get how Thoros managed to randomly ressurect Beric (after failing as a Priest for years) and how Beric managed to ressurect Cat - despite having no prior known knowledge/practice of magic, unless R'hllor's actually dealin' out suparpowerz.

[Frozentree]

I think it was clearly stated in the books that the Old Gods are greenseers living on in the weirwoods. They are the only gods confirmed to exist and have real powers, but they are not primordial and are mortal (can be killed by killing the weirwoods, though it seems one would have to kill every single weirwood in the world to kill them due to the WeirNet)

[mrunderhill]

Stannis didn't see some great proof of Melisandre's power when he converted. It was more like a sense than proof. He got it when he found out her words about renly's death are true.

As for BR, he was born with the gift, so magic didn't turned him into deity, he was born that way.

Born with it or not, when you have that much power you are practically a god. If you ask people to worship you and they do then what is the difference?

What's the difference between Bloodraven and someone like Dionysius? Dionysius was declared a god and worshiped. He was born with his powers too. Magical powers of that level make you a god to normal men.

[King of Winters]

I still don't get how Thoros managed to randomly ressurect Beric (after failing as a Priest for years) and how Beric managed to ressurect Cat - despite having no prior known knowledge/practice of magic, unless R'hllor's actually dealin' out suparpowerz.

That was because by then Dany's dragons had been born and they increased the power of magic in the world.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

It would work that way if the magic directly originates from the deities you mentioned and that they're involved in everything magical that's happened. And since we have actual proofs that magic and deities aren't necesserily connected, it makes strong case to believe that religion is niothing more than dogmatic, cultural belief. Because one thing is certain, if Starks were born on the South, they would believe in Seven, if they were born in some of Free Cities, they would have some other God. And that's what proves that Gods are cultural, not magical creation. All religions in ASOIAF are based upon beliefs, and people act upon them. That's what makes those religions equal in the Grand scheme.

Actually, no. There are no equalities in the Grand scheme. Some of the religions worship an accurate representation of the supernatural powers that really exist. Some religions worship a made-up wizard in the sky. Any comparison of the Seven vs R'hllor is going to end up with one side getting sh*t done while the other doesn't do a goddamn thing.

As far as the Starks being born in the south, it wouldn't matter. The CotF's network of weirwoods don't need people to believe in them. The readers have clearly seen that they, and their power, are real, and as long as weirwoods grow throughout the north, their power will continue.

[Leif]

That was because by then Dany's dragons had been born and they increased the power of magic in the world.

So all Red Priests can ressurect the dead? And if brought back this way, a person (RP or not) can give their life to someone else?

[Lady Nastja]

Why do Gods punish me with these threads?

I will say this again, for the 2 387 564th time. There is no such thing as more or less real religion. By definition, just like in our world, in ASOIAF, you can't say that one religion is more powerful than another, that one God is stronger than another. Basically, you can't say that someone else's beliefs are BS, like OP did. It would be like in our world that Christians brag about creating body of a man dead for 2000 years, and others can't. It doesn't work that way. We should learn to separate magic from religion. What makes you believe that Red God is sending visions to his priests, or worse, and completely wrong, that he had something in killing Kings by leeches? What makes R`hllor more real than Seven? Have we seen his power? No, we have seen some people performing magical rituals. It's same with Old Gods. Ordinary people, like Bran with supernatural power. They are not deities. They are people capable of doing something more. And, that's what matters. People act, not deities.

For the end, beliefs are what counts. Deity is as real as there are people believing in it. But, at the end, people are those that commit good or evil acts in God's name. Religion is true, real and strong as long as people believe in its preaches.

While I agree with some of your points, others I do not but to each their own.

[King of Winters]

So all Red Priests can ressurect the dead? And if brought back this way, a person (RP or not) can give their life to someone else?

We haven't had word of any other resurrections, at least I don't think so, but the Red Priests' powers have been strengthen by the return of the Dragons, so it's posible, as it's been said by the Warlocks that magic has been strengthened.

[Leif]

We haven't had word of any other resurrections, at least I don't think so, but the Red Priests' powers have been strengthen by the return of the Dragons, so it's posible, as it's been said by the Warlocks that magic has been strengthened.

Hm, makes sense. Mystery solved.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

:agree: Excellently said, could not have put it better myself in fact.

You do understand that these book are 'fantasy?' The whole everybody-is-equal-because-everybody's-stupid-enough-to-believe-in-some-ridiculous-wizard-in-the-sky mentality does not apply.

[Lady Nastja]

You do understand that these book are 'fantasy?' The whole everybody-is-equal-because-everybody's-stupid-enough-to-believe-in-some-ridiculous-wizard-in-the-sky mentality does not apply.

Actually, that's not really what I was getting at. It was one of the parts of his post that I didn't really agree with, as someone who does believe in God, and I do realise that it doesn't apply here. I was merely stating that aside from that, Mladen made a good post.