The gods, the religions, and Magic

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Actually, that's not really what I was getting at. It was one of the parts of his post that I didn't really agree with, as someone who does believe in God, and I do realise that it doesn't apply here. I was merely stating that aside from that, Mladen made a good post.

My apologies if I have been insulting, I don't intend to be, but sometimes that happens. I'm sorry.

[Bridgeburners]

Fluffy, let me jump in here.

You seem to think that the difference between a sceptical person who claims to have no reason to believe in a god, and a person who accept the existence of any god being claimed behind a phenomenon should be completely bridged by magic. Why is that? Is it because we haven't an explanation for that magic? I say that's bullocks.

Let's say we lived in the 1800s, and Benjamin Franklin told us "I have this great power to call upon Zeus to do my bidding". Back then, we don't know about voltage or how generating a potential difference can attract electricity. So he sets up a certain apparatus (hopefully more sophisticated than a person holding a key attached to a kite) meant to attract electricity (like a lightning tower). He says "this tower is blessed by Zeus", and lo and behold, lightning strikes it! Do we then say that he is an agent of Zeus because we can't explain the lightning at the time (like we can now)?

We still have plenty of unexplainable phenomena in real life. We have no idea what Dark Energy is, which is causing our universe's expansion to accelerate. We don't know the mechanism behind high Tc superconductivity. We don't know the physics behind extreme high density systems like the centre of a black hole. Etc. Just because it isn't explained, that doesn't mean it's unexplainable except by a god.

Magic is just another phenomenon. We don't know how it works, but that doesn't mean that we can just believe any claim by its practitioners, even if they themselves believe it. It's like how Aeron believes that his mouth to mouth resuscitation is revival through his drowned god because he doesn't know how it actually works. I doubt any red priest ever bothered to put their powers in a lab setting and try and investigate it, so attributing it to a god, like we have so often done, is so much easier. Trees are evidence of trees, lightning is evidence of lightning, superconductivity is evidence of superconductivity, and magic is evidence of magic. We still have yet to be given a reason to believe that there's a god behind that magic.

By the way, there have been many cases in real life where a person, who was thought to drown at sea, was pushed towards a shoreline by a tide. I'm sure many of those people attributed their survival to the divine, just like in aSoIaF. I claim that so far, we don't know if we saw any real magic behind a claim of the drowned god.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I believe there's only magic, no gods are exist.

P.S: There're stormsingers in the east and GRRM told that "just an another magical discipline". I mean there's definitely air/wind magic :dunno:

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I believe there's only magic, no gods are exist.

One could say that about religion in the real world as well.

[Mladen]

Born with it or not, when you have that much power you are practically a god. If you ask people to worship you and they do then what is the difference?

What's the difference between Bloodraven and someone like Dionysius? Dionysius was declared a god and worshiped. He was born with his powers too. Magical powers of that level make you a god to normal men.

The thing is Blooraven is a huma. We know that. We have historical proof that he was just like us. BR isn't some son of a God, or God resurrected on Earth. He is a man with specil gift. Following that logic, every superhero is a deity, and they aren't. And more than that, people have worshiped Old Gods thousands of years before BR. Religion of Old gods didn;t start with BR, so the religion is far older than deity.

Actually, no. There are no equalities in the Grand scheme. Some of the religions worship an accurate representation of the supernatural powers that really exist. Some religions worship a made-up wizard in the sky. Any comparison of the Seven vs R'hllor is going to end up with one side getting sh*t done while the other doesn't do a goddamn thing.

As far as the Starks being born in the south, it wouldn't matter. The CotF's network of weirwoods don't need people to believe in them. The readers have clearly seen that they, and their power, are real, and as long as weirwoods grow throughout the north, their power will continue.

You forget how every religion and belief work. It's not like we are born with these values inserted in us, it's that we get them through our childhood. Religion is passed from one generation to another. If that wasn't the case, who would believe in trees for 8 000 years without a proof. And even now, Northerners believe in it because they are their Gods, not because they are more or less real. Unlike us, they don't know what Old Gods really are.

And are you certain that Seven doesn't have some manifestation of power on Earth? I mean, this conversation about magical deities and the fact that one is stronger than another is ridiculuous because you can't measure it. Even with all our knowledge, we can't say R`hllor is more powerful than Seven or vice versa. Simply, we have no information to claim that. And at the end, we have seen neither R`hllor or Seven doing anything that would grant them our belief they're the `true God`

While I agree with some of your points, others I do not but to each their own.

I would like to hear what are we disagreeing about? It would be interesting :)

You do understand that these book are 'fantasy?' The whole everybody-is-equal-because-everybody's-stupid-enough-to-believe-in-some-ridiculous-wizard-in-the-sky mentality does not apply.

As a religious person, and the one that is supposed to believe in 'one true God', I understand the some people need confirmation of their beliefs I have found mine in most unlikely place, science. But this debate about which God has more power, isn't metaphysical debate, it's human one. And from that debate we got centuries of wars all around the world. From Crussade war, to Ottoman's rule, Pilgrimage of Grace in England, conflict between Vatican and scientists, WWII, September 11th, Jerusalem every year. I mean, it's the oldest and deadliest debate. And that debate wasn't created by Gods, it was created by us. And nothing I have read in ASOIAF convinced me otherwise. The same rule applies in Westeros, as they apply in our world

[mrunderhill]

The thing is Blooraven is a huma. We know that. We have historical proof that he was just like us. BR isn't some son of a God, or God resurrected on Earth. He is a man with specil gift. Following that logic, every superhero is a deity, and they aren't. And more than that, people have worshiped Old Gods thousands of years before BR. Religion of Old gods didn;t start with BR, so the religion is far older than deity.

The word has a much broader connotation than you are prepared to give it. Dionysius or Heracles were born humans. Thor was born mortal as were all the Norse gods. The fact that Bloodraven was once human does not change what he is now. Yes and superheroes would be regarded as gods. You really think if Superman turned up in our world and started doing the stuff he did we would not call him a god?

2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.

Look at those description and then look at what Bloodraven is.

As a religious person, and the one that is supposed to believe in 'one true God', I understand the some people need confirmation of their beliefs I have found mine in most unlikely place, science. But this debate about which God has more power, isn't metaphysical debate, it's human one. And from that debate we got centuries of wars all around the world. From Crussade war, to Ottoman's rule, Pilgrimage of Grace in England, conflict between Vatican and scientists, WWII, September 11th, Jerusalem every year. I mean, it's the oldest and deadliest debate. And that debate wasn't created by Gods, it was created by us. And nothing I have read in ASOIAF convinced me otherwise. The same rule applies in Westeros, as they apply in our world

Actually officially Muslims, Jews and Orthodox/Catholics all agree they worship the SAME God. The problem lies in the details. It's not a question of my God is stronger than yours, it is a question of you are not following OUR(collective) God in the right way.

[Mladen]

The word has a much broader connotation than you are prepared to give it. Dionysius or Heracles were born humans. Thor was born mortal as were all the Norse gods. The fact that Bloodraven was once human does not change what he is now. Yes and superheroes would be regarded as gods. You really think if Superman turned up in our world and started doing the stuff he did we would not call him a god?

2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.

Look at those description and then look at what Bloodraven is.

I admit that the term is wider than the traditional comprehension provides explanations, but what about Mel or Throros? I mean, if this is what counts for BR, why not Red Priests? And we can both agree that Melisandre is being seen as idol by the believers?

We would call Superman an alien :)

Actually officially Muslims, Jews and Orthodox/Catholics all agree they worship the SAME God. The problem lies in the details. It's not a question of my God is stronger than yours, it is a question of you are not following OUR(collective) God in the right way.

Same God, different rules? Something like stories about Last Hero and Azor Ahai... Also, who can tell that all those Gods aren't actually one diety seeing differently due to cultural beliefs. Look at House of Black and White where death has so many Gods, and so many faces.

[mrunderhill]

I admit that the term is wider than the traditional comprehension provides explanations, but what about Mel or Throros? I mean, if this is what counts for BR, why not Red Priests? And we can both agree that Melisandre is being seen as idol by the believers?

We would call Superman an alien :)

It honestly depends on what Superman told us. I personally would call him whatever he wanted to be called. Melisandre is closer to being a god than Thoros, but I don't think either of them are worshiped or prayed to like the Weirwoods. They are seen as priest, where as Bloodraven is not a priest to the Old Gods he has the powers they were said to possess.

Same God, different rules? Something like stories about Last Hero and Azor Ahai... Also, who can tell that all those Gods aren't actually one diety seeing differently due to cultural beliefs. Look at House of Black and White where death has so many Gods, and so many faces.

I don't think the Last Hero is Azor Ahai, I think the Last Hero was a Stark and Azhor Ahai is going to be a Targaryen, but that is wildly off topic. Well the religious groups have to decide that. I imagine if you told Iron Born that the drowned god and the Storm god were one and the same, you would end up being sacrificed to the drowned god. Where as with the Muslim/Catholic/Orthodox God, they have ALL agreed they worship the same God.

[Mladen]

It honestly depends on what Superman told us. I personally would call him whatever he wanted to be called. Melisandre is closer to being a god than Thoros, but I don't think either of them are worshiped or prayed to like the Weirwoods. They are seen as priest, where as Bloodraven is not a priest to the Old Gods he has the powers they were said to possess.

Ah the fear... One of the best way to make people believe in something. Used for centuries... Correct, Melisandre is just a priest, but she also shows gt=reat deal of power, BR is a God, but no one knows that. Therefore who do you think is stronger in that equasion? The God who is a tree for the past century, or the priestess that actually proved herself by giving birth to some shadowbabies? At the end, for me, it means nothing. I believe that people are free to believe in whatever God they choose to believe, and that is what makes that God real to them. I'll even acknowledge that for them, the God is real, but that still doesn't mean a lot when we discuss some order of how strong one or another God is...

I don't think the Last Hero is Azor Ahai, I think the Last Hero was a Stark and Azhor Ahai is going to be a Targaryen, but that is wildly off topic. Well the religious groups have to decide that. I imagine if you told Iron Born that the drowned god and the Storm god were one and the same, you would end up being sacrificed to the drowned god. Where as with the Muslim/Catholic/Orthodox God, they have ALL agreed they worship the same God.

It is the same God, but there are some cultural differences. That's even more dangerous. Who is right then? Muhamed, Jesus or someone else? At the end, it doesn't matter whether there are one or fifty deities. If there are people ready to believe in the preaches of religion, that makes her real. At least for them, which means they could act upon their beliefs. And that is the 'power' of every God.

[Frozentree]

This really depends on what philosophy you believe in. Classical theism? Pantheism? Naturalism? Agnosticism? Everyone is right according to one or few and wrong according to the others. There is no point in arguing over things like this if you don't agree upon one of these views, you can't discuss how an object will behave if one thinks it is a ball and other one that it is a cube, and from experience I think that such a discussion can't end well.

[MadMikes]

I think that it's more about magic than actual true religion. As in magic as an arcane force that influences the world, though its strength varies. I imagine conflicts arise through this force, such as the one between Ice and Fire. Ice and Fire must be in conflict, so as a natural part of resolving this conflict, magic and supernatural powers appear in humans among others who are able to influence the struggle. Perhaps similar natural forces are in consistent conflict with each other e.g life/death (The Many Faced God), Sky and Sea (drowned and storm gods) etc. Maybe these natural forces even manifest as entities, but whatever they are, I don't think they would be something comprehensible to humans. I think magic in ASOIAF is more 'humans at the mercy of strange arcane forces' than 'gods who really care about humans.