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The gods, the religions, and Magic

Victarion Chainbreaker

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Victarion Chainbreaker Council Member

Victarion Chainbreaker

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The gods are real, and they’re elemental. We’re not talking about an old guy with a white beard deciding which of his creations that he loves so much will burn for eternity. No, the gods of ASOIAF are not gods in the traditional sense, but they still have real supernatural powers and seek to affect the world of men. The religions of the world try to explain these gods, with varying degrees of success.

The only gods that the readers have gotten an inside look at are the Old Gods. As a network of greenseers preserved inside the weirwoods, these gods have the powers of warging, greendreams, and whispering at people far away and really freaking them out. These are the gods of life and nature, and their powers are channeled exclusively through living things (people, animals, trees…)

It’s clear that the religion of the Old Gods is fairly close to the reality of the Old Gods. Weirwoods are held sacred throughout the north and some of the south, and weddings, oaths, and other important ceremonies are held literally in the sight of the Old Gods. That being said, I’m sure Ned had no idea he was praying to the network of the CotF, but he and the rest of the north do so anyway, and that’s the important part. It keeps the Old Gods in the know and therefore players in the world of men.

Next up is the Red God. The readers have no idea what form the Red God may take, but we have clearly seen his power. The Red God can send his followers visions in fire, make shadow baby assassins, burn enemy eagles hundreds of feet up, kill kings with leaches, oh, and RESURRECT THE DEAD. The Red God is of course the god of fire, and it would surprise nobody if dragons were revealed to be his creatures.

The religion of R’hllor is also fairly close to the reality of the Red God. The priests of this religion enjoy invulnerability to poison, cold, and hunger, and also receive warnings of personal danger. This implies that the priests, though they may not know exactly what’s going on (I’m looking at you, Mel,) still operate with the consent and protection of the Red God. Of course the religion would be accurate, considering the actual god can communicate with his followers through the fire.

Unfortunately, the readers haven’t had nearly as much information about the other sources of supernatural power in the world, but here’s my analysis.

The Drowned God has shown himself to at least exist and have power, but we know very little about him. The problem is, our characters live on land and traverse the sea on boats, so they have little interaction with the realm of the Drowned God. His powers include saving people from drowning, prophecy, and turning people batshit crazy. So far we’ve had four instances of the Drowned God saving men who otherwise were guaranteed to die: Aeron Damphair, Patchface, Davos, and Moqorro. Aeron and Patchface both went a bit crazy, and Patchface was granted prophetic visions, though very annoying ones.

The religion of the Drowned God appears to be bullshit. Aeron performing CPR and pretending it’s a miracle is laughable. The world under the sea is unknown to men, and I’m guessing the priests of this religion haven’t the slightest idea about the actual Drowned God. Also, I’m going to be very depressed if there is no kraken vs. dragon battle.

The God of Death suffers from the same problem as the Drowned God, namely that our POV characters exist in the living world, and we tend not to hear from them after they’ve visited the God of Death’s realm. This lack of information results in a very short list of the God of Death’s known supernatural abilities: changing faces. However, we do know that how the Faceless Men change their faces is supernatural, not a trick or disguise.

The religions of the God of Death are diverse and widespread, but luckily they’ve all been collected by the House of Black and White. I’m gonna call half-bullshit on this religion. The Black and White priests do receive supernatural abilities, but it’s kinda suspicious that the will of the God of Death coincides with whoever pays a ton of money to the House of Black and White. I suppose the actual God of Death is just happy that people are getting killed, so he grants power to the Faceless Men.

Which leaves us with the last god, the God of Ice. This god can raise ice zombies from the dead, both people and animals, as well as create armor and weapons with unknown but clearly supernatural properties.

We know nothing about the religion of the Others, except that they use babies for something. Sacrifices? Turned into Others? George has promised we’ll learn more on this in the future.

Every other religion (The Seven, The Old Man of the River, The Great Stallion, The Great Sheppard…) is made up bullshit and has no relation to any actual supernatural power.

The war between the God of Ice and the God of Fire is the story of ASOIAF, but who knows where the other gods will align. Does the God of Death appreciate having his denizens turned into wights? Is he complicit? Do the Old Gods want Westeros cleared of men so the CotF can take back their land? Will they save the First Men (who most likely have CotF blood in their veins) from the Others? Will the kraken battle a fire dragon or an ice dragon?

So there you have it , gods of:

Nature (green)

Fire (red)

Water (blue)

Death (black)

Ice (white)

On a completely unrelated note, does anyone know if George was ever a big fan of Magic the Gathering?

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Hodor knows Squire

Hodor knows

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I agree, "Gods" are real. Magic is on the rebound!

I prefer these colors, imo;

Nature (White) Weirwoods

Fire (red)

Water (Green)Vic says he doesn't like the blue water. Green/grey was his water, the Drowned God's water.

Death (black)

Ice (blue)The Wall, wight's eyes

(edit:typo)

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Frozentree Council Member

Frozentree

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Where is the Storm God? The Drowned God's nemesis, you know.

Also, how do you explain the Elder brother's healing powers? He is a fervent 7 worshiper,which of the elemental gods would give him these powers and why?

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The Dornishman's Wife Council Member

The Dornishman's Wife

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[...]

While I do think that this would be a nice and aesthetically pleasing supermythology, I feel it has little to no basis in the text.

It rather seems to be inspired by a list of the religions where we've met the coolest sorcerers... but there are many feats of fire elemental magic that have no relation to R'hllor (Pyromancers, the Firemage guy in Qarth etc) and similarly for other elements, and some feats of magic are performed in the name of a god (e.g. MMD and the great shepherd), but he somehow still doesn't make your pantheon.

As there is no supernatural agency behind the magic followers of a religion perform discernible in the books, it would seem to me that your theory would actually work better if the gods are just cut out of it, leaving a system of elemental forces.

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Frozentree Council Member

Frozentree

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Maybe a bit of topic but do you guys think that these religions are totally made up by Martins incredible mind or do they have any base in religions of the real world, our world that is?

They do have base, but a very, very loose one. The Faith is inspired by Christianity, the Old Gods by Druidism/Naturalism/Animalism, R'hool by Zoroastrianism

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The Dornishman's Wife Council Member

The Dornishman's Wife

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Maybe a bit of topic but do you guys think that these religions are totally made up by Martins incredible mind or do they have any base in religions of the real world, our world that is?

Many things are completely made up, but for others he also used real religions as inspirations: The seven aspects of divinity in the Faith harken to the christian trinity, the High Septon corresponds to the catholic pope, the Drowned God has certainly been inspired by Cthulhu, he has stated that the religion of R'hllor has been inspired by Zoroastrianism and the Cathars.

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Mladen Council Member

Mladen

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Mladen is Coming...

:agree: A thread on the gods? He shall be here with his insightful thoughts and opinions shortly, soon I hope. Mladen + a thread on the gods = A very enjoyable thread.

*eats popcorn*

Waiting Mladen's classic post.

Why do Gods punish me with these threads?

I will say this again, for the 2 387 564th time. There is no such thing as more or less real religion. By definition, just like in our world, in ASOIAF, you can't say that one religion is more powerful than another, that one God is stronger than another. Basically, you can't say that someone else's beliefs are BS, like OP did. It would be like in our world that Christians brag about creating body of a man dead for 2000 years, and others can't. It doesn't work that way. We should learn to separate magic from religion. What makes you believe that Red God is sending visions to his priests, or worse, and completely wrong, that he had something in killing Kings by leeches? What makes R`hllor more real than Seven? Have we seen his power? No, we have seen some people performing magical rituals. It's same with Old Gods. Ordinary people, like Bran with supernatural power. They are not deities. They are people capable of doing something more. And, that's what matters. People act, not deities.

For the end, beliefs are what counts. Deity is as real as there are people believing in it. But, at the end, people are those that commit good or evil acts in God's name. Religion is true, real and strong as long as people believe in its preaches.

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King of Winters Council Member

King of Winters

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I will say this again, for the 2 387 564th time. There is no such thing as more or less real religion. By definition, just like in our world, in ASOIAF, you can't say that one religion is more powerful than another, that one God is stronger than another. Basically, you can't say that someone else's beliefs are BS, like OP did. It would be like in our world that Christians brag about creating body of a man dead for 2000 years, and others can't. It doesn't work that way. We should learn to separate magic from religion. What makes you believe that Red God is sending visions to his priests, or worse, and completely wrong, that he had something in killing Kings by leeches? What makes R`hllor more real than Seven? Have we seen his power? No, we have seen some people performing magical rituals. It's same with Old Gods. Ordinary people, like Bran with supernatural power. They are not deities. They are people capable of doing something more. And, that's what matters. People act, not deities.

For the end, beliefs are what counts. Deity is as real as there are people believing in it. But, at the end, people are those that commit good or evil acts in God's name. Religion is true, real and strong as long as people believe in its preaches.

Actually it's the 2,387,566th time :P

There should be a pinned thread in the forum with Mladen's posts about religions, Apple Martini's posts about the fireproofness of Targs,etc...

I completely agree.

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Mladen Council Member

Mladen

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There should be a pinned thread in the forum with Mladen's posts about religions, Apple Martini's posts about the fireproofness of Targs,etc...

One day I'll open a thread about religions, and I'll finally put an end to that story...

Actually it's the 2,387,566th time :P

I lost my count... :). But I bet there are too many of my posts about religion...

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mrunderhill Council Member

mrunderhill

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It's hard to judge the validity of each religion without knowing their beliefs. Martin also does not give us an omniscient author to confirm things to us.

However, lets look at the example of Bloodraven. His magical powers are so vast, I don't see how he is not a god. He can see into the future, take over the minds of animals, look into the past, look all over the world etc. Martin says the gods would not play a part in the book, but Bloodraven IS a god. Bran looks set to follow him.

The idea of one God, being solely powerful and creating everything was a unique concept. For instance the Romans had no problem acknowledging and worshiping different gods. The existence of the Drowned God, does not mean the Old Gods or the Storm God do not exist.

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