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Slayer of Lies

Septon Chayle is the Hooded Man in WF (Theon I Spoilers)

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Yes, partly. Theon is metaphorically, as a character forgotten to himself, one of the 'ghosts' in Winterfell. It seems odd to me that he only becomes Theon fully again in the titles after the killings have taken place.

Heh, and also after meeting the "Hooded Man". ;)

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Of course, which is why the theory came about that he was talking to himself, seeing as the character he encounters seems to know him so well. If the 'Durden' theory is correct, then the phrase 'kinslayer' may be Theon recognising on some level that the miller's kids may have been his own.

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Of course, which is why the theory came about that he was talking to himself, seeing as the character he encounters seems to know him so well. If the 'Durden' theory is correct, then the phrase 'kinslayer' may be Theon recognising on some level that the miller's kids may have been his own.

Or it may be, as I believe, that it is simply Theon leveling at "himself" those accusations that he knows the world at large levels at him: turncloak and kinslayer.

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i always thought the chapter titles for theon were discriptive of his character arc and struggle between being reek or being theon. However, I do not see them relating to the hooded man incident. I think it has to do with his relationship with ramsay (or theon's breaking out from under his influence). He finally returns to being Theon when he openly rebels against Ramsay, stealing and absconding with his bride.

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I think it has to do with his relationship with ramsay (or theon's breaking out from under his influence). He finally returns to being Theon when he openly rebels against Ramsay, stealing and absconding with his bride.

This.

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I never understood the way Winterfell library burns, or Septon Chayle "dies", but if we put these events into perspective with your theory, then Chayle may yet become an important plot device considering he was in charge of the library that is lost to anyone but him.

On the other side, I would not take him reading a particular book as studying murder, but rather as reference to his knowledge of the Stark reading assignments (and I assume that if he was reading on a subject as existential and boring as Grand Maester Aethelmure's musing, then he mush have read some more "applicable" things relating directly to ASOIAF narrative like Stark lineage, Northern history, Night's King, the Wall, the Others, etc etc.) so that when and if such knowledge is required (say, the coming winter, or the Others invasion) it is ready to be provided from a reliable Winterfell source.

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I never understood the way Winterfell library burns, or Septon Chayle "dies", but if we put these events into perspective with your theory, then Chayle may yet become an important plot device considering he was in charge of the library that is lost to anyone but him.

On the other side, I would not take him reading a particular book as studying murder, but rather as reference to his knowledge of the Stark reading assignments (and I assume that if he was reading on a subject as existential and boring as Grand Maester Aethelmure's musing, then he mush have read some more "applicable" things relating directly to ASOIAF narrative like Stark lineage, Northern history, Night's King, the Wall, the Others, etc etc.) so that when and if such knowledge is required (say, the coming winter, or the Others invasion) it is ready to be provided from a reliable Winterfell source.

That would be an interesting development, Chayle as the librarian action hero of Westeros. I like the idea of the fight to save books and knowledge.

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Which would fit equally as well. Were you the person who came up with that theory? I sometimes forget who's posted what.

Are you asking if I'm the originator of the Theon2 (for you :) ) theory? If so, no, I'm not. It's just that it was the impression I got when first reading that scene. I was probably one of the early posters about it, though. I really don't remember...

i always thought the chapter titles for theon were discriptive of his character arc and struggle between being reek or being theon. However, I do not see them relating to the hooded man incident. I think it has to do with his relationship with ramsay (or theon's breaking out from under his influence). He finally returns to being Theon when he openly rebels against Ramsay, stealing and absconding with his bride.

I agree with you here on the chapter titles. It's just that I do believe the Hooded Man is Theon himself. I believe the encounter is definitely part (the exact moment, really) of Theon/Reek's decision to "be" Theon again and defy Ramsey.

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I always thought so too, even leaning to that assumption a bit before I saw someone else come up with it. It seems the most credible theory. Of course, the OP does put up a good case that it might indeed be Chayle. Either way, we still have a Cluedo game on hand to work out all the likely murderers. If Chayle is the HM, it throws another blatant suspect into the mix.

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Am I the only person who thinks that the hooded man was just some disgruntled Northern guy, who despises Theon as all the Northmen do and who will remain an anonymous nobody?

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i feel like the drowned god's "power" could honestly just be the fact that they're well versed in CPR and mouth to mouth which is obviously an oddity and specific to those people in this story....i think that it''s just the way the people have of explaining it....like the way maelys the monstrous is described as eating his twin in the womb when more likely he just has a dead conjoined twin growing from his neck...i dunno just throwin' it out there

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Am I the only person who thinks that the hooded man was just some disgruntled Northern guy, who despises Theon as all the Northmen do and who will remain an anonymous nobody?

Certainly not, but nobody had proposed Chayle yet that I could find when I started this thread, and I think - no matter what we believe - we all like to consider all the options or we wouldn't be here. :read:

i feel like the drowned god's "power" could honestly just be the fact that they're well versed in CPR and mouth to mouth which is obviously an oddity and specific to those people in this story....i think that it''s just the way the people have of explaining it....like the way maelys the monstrous is described as eating his twin in the womb when more likely he just has a dead conjoined twin growing from his neck...i dunno just throwin' it out there

The Drowned God's power is exactly cardiopulmonary resuscitation, but elsewhere in the thread the rise in both the frequency and power of magic are discussed. Add in a bit of symbolism and it's not that much of a stretch to consider that "what is dead may never die" could come to mean something more, let alone the fact that resurrection is already theme of the books.

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I never understood the way Winterfell library burns, or Septon Chayle "dies", but if we put these events into perspective with your theory, then Chayle may yet become an important plot device considering he was in charge of the library that is lost to anyone but him.

On the other side, I would not take him reading a particular book as studying murder, but rather as reference to his knowledge of the Stark reading assignments (and I assume that if he was reading on a subject as existential and boring as Grand Maester Aethelmure's musing, then he mush have read some more "applicable" things relating directly to ASOIAF narrative like Stark lineage, Northern history, Night's King, the Wall, the Others, etc etc.) so that when and if such knowledge is required (say, the coming winter, or the Others invasion) it is ready to be provided from a reliable Winterfell source.

Interesting insight!

Chayle's name appears so infrequently in the texts, that his reading of a book advising against the use of poison is literally one of the only potential pieces of evidence to go on, insofar as text-supported motives might be concerned. And even that is likely only in place (early in AGOT) to set up the general disdain for the use of poison in Westeros, and less specific to someone's arc.

Further, Chayle's a cheerful man, a godly man, and - if Chayle is the HM - he opted to leave Theon be instead of engage in open conflict. To that end, if the HM ever gets follow up from GRRM, I anticipate that he will be a "man on the inside" in some form or fashion, and possibly even be involved in opening the gates. Or, as you suggest, there for the provision of information (to someone) the next time we have a POV inside WF.

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Interesting insight!

Chayle's name appears so infrequently in the texts, that his reading of a book advising against the use of poison is literally one of the only potential pieces of evidence to go on, insofar as text-supported motives might be concerned. And even that is likely only in place (early in AGOT) to set up the general disdain for the use of poison in Westeros, and less specific to someone's arc.

Further, Chayle's a cheerful man, a godly man, and - if Chayle is the HM - he opted to leave Theon be instead of engage in open conflict. To that end, if the HM ever gets follow up from GRRM, I anticipate that he will be a "man on the inside" in some form or fashion, and possibly even be involved in opening the gates. Or, as you suggest, there for the provision of information (to someone) the next time we have a POV inside WF.

My sticking point on this is how Chayle gets out alive from the well?See my earlier posts on the subject.If I can be convinced of this,I might be able to accept it as a runner.

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My sticking point on this is how Chayle gets out alive from the well?See my earlier posts on the subject.If I can be convinced of this,I might be able to accept it as a runner.

The theory is the well is bottomless/ has passages to the hot springs/ has airpockets.

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The theory is the well is bottomless/ has passages to the hot springs/ has airpockets.

Passages to cold pools too,possibly.But no evidence they are wide enough to swim.As I referred to in previous posts,even if these passages exist they would be extremely difficult for a modern diver with up to date equipment and back up to negotiate,never mind simply a strong swimmer.

If the well is sufficiently deep the fall and impact would have killed him,or rendered him unable to swim.

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Passages to cold pools too,possibly.But no evidence they are wide enough to swim.As I referred to in previous posts,even if these passages exist they would be extremely difficult for a modern diver with up to date equipment and back up to negotiate,never mind simply a strong swimmer.

If the well is sufficiently deep the fall and impact would have killed him, or rendered him unable to swim.

We can certainly assume the well is cool, and the pool in the godswood that Osha swam in is documented as being cool, and hinted at as being "bottemless" to boot. That they might be connected isn't much of a stretch, I don't think.

While one "version" of the theory assumes Chayle simply lived, it's also put forth that the Drowned God could be involved (at a more speculative level, as suggested in the revised OP).

On the flipside, it's another theory to assume he simply died, as most readers assume since his initial fall down the well.

All of these things are in the realm of consideration, and this theory is simply based on his survival or possible resurrection.

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Passages to cold pools too,possibly.But no evidence they are wide enough to swim.As I referred to in previous posts,even if these passages exist they would be extremely difficult for a modern diver with up to date equipment and back up to negotiate,never mind simply a strong swimmer.

If the well is sufficiently deep the fall and impact would have killed him,or rendered him unable to swim.

Depends entirely on the well.

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