The Green King Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Every time when I saw this, I had to admire how silly rhaegar was. No matter what was his motivation, love or prophecy or politics, how come he hid in the south for almost one year? He was not pregnant. What did he do there while there was a huge war outside? Playing harp, planting roses and having sex with a pregnant woman whose dad and brother died horribly? Amusing. Planting the seed for rejuvenation of the realm... the man had long term view, and he could have some fun at the same time. Wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Planting the seed for rejuvenation of the realm... the man had long term view, and he could have some fun at the same time. Wise. Or he simply was mad with prophecy and what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Planting the seed for rejuvenation of the realm... the man had long term view, and he could have some fun at the same time. Wise. Indeed, this is most confusing part. I can not think about any valid reason for this if this is not a minor error of George on timeline or something. Why remained hiding for a year? What is the point? So much in love that he did not want to part from her for a single minute? Maybe. But sounds stupid. Jon was conceived quite early, he did not need to be there for one year if his motivation was about a child. If he tried to hide from his father's wrath or tried to hide lyanna because his Dad wanted to kill lyanna like somebody guessed, his father did not seem wrathful to him that much and certainly did not try to do anything against lyanna. White Bull was even left there to protect lyanna. His dad trusted him with all the war and army and was mad for his death. So confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
changdi Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 In addition to the timeline issues, why the ToJ? Why did Rhaegar and Lyanna go to Dorne at all? Sure, it's the farthest of the Seven Kingdoms from the North and the Eyrie, but it seems uncharacteristically harebrained of Rhaegar to take his mistress (second wife?) to the semi-autonomous domain of this (first?) wife's family. I'm sure there are more romantic remote areas of Westeros to which he could have stolen away with Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Indeed, this is most confusing part. I can not think about any valid reason for this if this is not a minor error of George on timeline or something. Why remained hiding for a year? What is the point? So much in love that he did not want to part from her for a single minute? Maybe. But sounds stupid. Jon was conceived quite early, he did not need to be there for one year if his motivation was about a child. If he tried to hide from his father's wrath or tried to hide lyanna because his Dad wanted to kill lyanna like somebody guessed, his father did not seem wrathful to him that much and certainly did not try to do anything against lyanna. White Bull was even left there to protect lyanna. His dad trusted him with all the war and army and was mad for his death. So confusing. I don't think so... Aerys didn't know much in the beginning, until the baby was conceived. Likely Aerys wanted to kill Rhaegar and Lyanna in some way, but he also had several reasons not to do so. Aerys wasn't just Mad, he was torn up. Aerys might have been driven mad by the idea of prophecies, it was Rhaegar who had decyphered some of what the prophecies entailed. Aerys likely felt threatened by his son at first, and certainly with the ideas of some bad advisors whispering crap in his ears. But Aerys, who mistrust his firstborn, probably didn't just want to kill Rhaegar, especially because of those prophecies. And, once Rhaegar had been in hiding for a bit, Aerys started to have other worries... he had a fullblown rebellion on his plate and he hadn't seen that one coming. So besides being completely crazy, he was torn up inside about what to do. Frustrated, full of fear, stressed from trying to fullfill a bloody prophecy while failing to produce heirs, mistrustful of his own son (and actually the rest of the realm too), never knowing if he was either doing good or bad, and thus ultimately quite confilcted and dangerous... until he saw either that his son might have been the one to realise the prophecy (which probably still didn't sit well with Aerys, who tought himself so important) or until he saw that it was better to forgive his son's deeds and by doing so winning his aid to overcome the rebellion, while thinking that he still could dispose of his son later. Sending Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander who was a bit more loyal to Aerys, might have been a move to try and keep Arthur and Oswell in check and maybe even a move to dispose of Lyanna (i'm just guessing this last one, we don't know about the orders of Aerys) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I don't think so... Aerys didn't know much in the beginning, until the baby was conceived. Likely Aerys wanted to kill Rhaegar and Lyanna in some way, but he also had several reasons not to do so. Aerys wasn't just Mad, he was torn up. Aerys might have been driven mad by the idea of prophecies, it was Rhaegar who had decyphered some of what the prophecies entailed. Aerys likely felt threatened by his son at first, and certainly with the ideas of some bad advisors whispering crap in his ears. But Aerys, who mistrust his firstborn, probably didn't just want to kill Rhaegar, especially because of those prophecies. And, once Rhaegar had been in hiding for a bit, Aerys started to have other worries... he had a fullblown rebellion on his plate and he hadn't seen that one coming. So besides being completely crazy, he was torn up inside about what to do. Frustrated, full of fear, stressed from trying to fullfill a bloody prophecy while failing to produce heirs, mistrustful of his own son (and actually the rest of the realm too), never knowing if he was either doing good or bad, and thus ultimately quite confilcted and dangerous... until he saw either that his son might have been the one to realise the prophecy (which probably still didn't sit well with Aerys, who tought himself so important) or until he saw that it was better to forgive his son's deeds and by doing so winning his aid to overcome the rebellion, while thinking that he still could dispose of his son later. Sending Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander who was a bit more loyal to Aerys, might have been a move to try and keep Arthur and Oswell in check and maybe even a move to dispose of Lyanna (i'm just guessing this last one, we don't know about the orders of Aerys) I do think it is possible that that both Aerys and rhaegar were on the prophecy. Aerys supported his son's plan from the very beginning. He let rhaegar do what he wanted to do and only summoned him when extremely necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenn the Great Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I personally go with B+A=J and R+L=D. I could easily see R+L=J being true but B+A=J,R+L=D just seems to fill the situation better to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 It makes a lot of sense, actually. how? why not admit who the mother is? what purpose does it serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I personally go with B+A=J and R+L=D. I could easily see R+L=J being true but B+A=J,R+L=D just seems to fill the situation better to me. So how to explain why Ned doesn't just tell the truth about who Jon's parents are? Brandon is dead and Ashara is, as far as anyone knows, dead. It does them no harm to tell the truth. Sure Cat might be a bit pissed that her betrothed slept with the hottest chick on the planet, but it would make Ned's life easier. Sure maybe Cat would be even more pissed to have Jon around as a constant reminder, but if Jon isn't a result of R+L (and thus the personification of Ice and Fire) then he's not keeping Jon as a promise to Lyanna, so why? IMHO B+A=J raises WAY more questions then it answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Come on guys. I feel that at this movement RLJ is overwhelming. I really can not think about anything else. But of course, there are still a lot of questions about them. Like motivations, plans, fights, etc. and I do not think they got married. Jon is a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 how? why not admit who the mother is? what purpose does it serve? The purpose it shows Ned was ashamed of his acts, specially if t causes the death of a woman he loved. People cope differently to stress or pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atonement Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Tourney at Harrenhal happened in 281 AC while Robert sat on the iron throne in 284 AC. A mere three years difference. It might be Lyanna who got raped by at HH. May be Rhaegar took her with him to help her in order to save honor of her house. It might be Aerys who raped her and had a desire to marry. Rhaegar took her under his protection to save her from his father which enraged Aerys and he let out that frustration over poor Papa Stark and Big B Stark, which means A+L=J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Tourney at Harrenhal happened in 281 AC while Robert sat on the iron throne in 284 AC. A mere three years difference. It might be Lyanna who got raped by at HH. May be Rhaegar took her with him to help her in order to save honor of her house. It might be Aerys who raped her and had a desire to marry. Rhaegar took her under his protection to save her from his father which enraged Aerys and he let out that frustration over poor Papa Stark and Big B Stark, which means A+L=J The age of Jon did not fit this though. IMHO, there is no chance jon was son of mad king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 The age of Jon did not fit this though. IMHO, there is no chance jon was son of mad king. I wouldn't bank too much on using Dany's supposed birth to determine Jon's.Even her birth is suspect because Visery's account,and Jamie's account of the "midnight" flight to Dragonstone is different.Events surrounding her birth is screwy.I heed GRRM's warning in matters of birth timelines,there's wisdom to it.Once the fixation with counting and trying to calculate these things are put aside one can see a bigger picture emerging. Jon could very well and imo "was" conceived at the tourney. “The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing. My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story.—GRRM” www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances "R"+ L=J (Robert) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 We don't have to be exact about dates to deny theories that are a full year wrong. Jon and Robb were of an age, with Jon believed younger by the people of Winterfell. So Jon certainly wasn't born before the war started, which rules out him being conceived at Harrenhal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atonement Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 It is not about what people believe. Many people look younger than their original age. And don't forget that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna just after the HH. The dates above are copied by the same forum pages so the source is reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Ned brings Jon, a 3 year old, home to WF at the conclusion of the war and tells Cat that he's Ned's bastard fathered after their wedding and Cat doesn't suspect that Jon is 3? Umm...no. If Jon is old enough to have been fathered prior to Ned's marriage to Cat then the easiest thing to do is say he had a child out of wedlock prior to their wedding and avoid Cat being so pissed about Ned cheating. I agree that the timeline shouldn't be used to construct theories involving a few months but years? I think it's solid enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doorlocks Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I've also been liking Aerys for the kidnapping lately. It's possible that he blamed it on Rhaegar intentionally, to sour the potential alliance between Rhaegar and the Starks to dethrone him. A direct order from the King would also explain why the Kingsguard refused to leave the Tower. Lyanna actually being kidnapped would explain why she never tried to contact her family; Aerys doing it fits his personality much better than Rhaegar's. We don't know for sure that Lyanna was at the ToJ for the duration of the war. If Aerys was the one who kidnapped her, it's possible he kept her at the Red Keep or somewhere near King's Landing, and then sent pregnant!Lyanna away around the same time he sent pregnant!Rhaella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I do think it is possible that that both Aerys and rhaegar were on the prophecy. Aerys supported his son's plan from the very beginning. He let rhaegar do what he wanted to do and only summoned him when extremely necessary. No i don't think that Aerys liked so much what Rhaegar was up to, he likely was very paranoid. But only until it was too late, then he might have understood a bit better, but he might still not have been happy with it. Anyway, by that time he had other trouble on his hands, like a humongous rebellion which needed to be taken care of... he could use his son, and maybe even dispose of him that way. But if Rhaegar didn't die, he might still be able to take care of him after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
changdi Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 No i don't think that Aerys liked so much what Rhaegar was up to, he likely was very paranoid. But only until it was too late, then he might have understood a bit better, but he might still not have been happy with it. Anyway, by that time he had other trouble on his hands, like a humongous rebellion which needed to be taken care of... he could use his son, and maybe even dispose of him that way. But if Rhaegar didn't die, he might still be able to take care of him after the war. Ditto. Aerys went to Harrenhal in the first place because he was suspicious of Rhaegar, but this turned into paranoia over the KotLT. I'm not sold on the idea that the KotLT was Lyanna, but supposing it was: Rhaegar may have found Lyanna but lied to protect her, but after everyone was gone from Harrenhal Rhaegar may have caved and told his father about Lyanna. Aerys may have asked him to "arrest" Lyanna, but the two instead ran away together, first for Lyanna's protection and then because they actually developed feelings for each other, leading to the above situation. (Just to clarify, I don't actually believe this, but it is an explanation that fits.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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