R+L=J Alternatives that also Explain Tower of Joy Events

[Not Dead Just Broken]

There is one crucial difference that you're missing - while Arys and Mandon were dying doing their duty, there were still other KG who were doing their first duty protecting the king. When the events of ToJ are taking place, Viserys is supposedly king and the KG trio are aware that he doesn't have any KG with him, hence the first duty is not being fulfilled and they are oathbreakers in this respect. Yet, they repeatedly emphasize their status as Kingsguard and insist that they are keeping their vows, which is simply untrue if not a single one of them is with Viserys.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that a member of the Kingsguard has to be with the King at all times. The only KG with Robert when he goes to Winterfell is Jaime and even he doesn't go with him when they go off to hunt (a clearly dangerous thing). Jaime stays behind to be with Cersei. Jaime is left behind when the rest of the KG goes to the Trident but that seems to be as much about Aerys keeping Jaime around to hold Tywin in check than anything else. Rhaegar basically says as much.

Also, if the Kingsguard should be with the King at all times, leaving three members with Lyanna and the theoretically 4th in the line of succession, is a really bad idea. No one goes with Rhaegar from the ToJ to KL.

Why do they take Viserys to Dragonstone and not Elia and her children? The reason is that only the most rabid supporters of the rebels could have viewed an infant as a threat. No one thought it possible at the time of Viserys' flight that someone would kill Aegon. Ned and Robert fall out over the Mountain's actions afterwords. The Martells plot revenge for 18 years. Viserys on the other hand, is old enough to legitimately threaten Robert's rule. That's why he is sent to Dragonstone with the very pregnant Queen and Elia stays at KL. So, if no one views Aegon as a threat (except for the Mountain, Tywin and Robert), why would Rhaegar think that his unborn child's life was worth leaving three KG the ToJ? He wouldn't. He left the KG there to protect Lyanna. There's no evidence that after the sack of KL anything really changed for them.

Also, as long as Lyanna lives and the KG have her, she's a bargaining chip. They might have thought they could negotiate something with Robert if they gave Lyanna back or that Robert would be unwilling to attack Viserys as long as Lyanna was captive. They can protect the King without being physically with him.

[alienarea]

What if Lyanna was not pregnant from Rhaegar but from Aerys? He killed her father and brother and raped her.

Rhaegar was gay and him crowning Lyanna was just a distraction to annoy Cersei. Lyanna took it for more than it was and starts the tragic events.

When it is discovered that Lyanna is pregnant Rhaegar hides her at the ToJ because of guilt. Aerys sends for Rhaegar to fight at the Trident and orders the three KG to stay with Lyanna at all costs because she is his bargaining chip in case Rhaegar loses. Jaime fucks up the bargain by killing Aerys and Lyanna kills herself when Ned arrives out of guilt.

[Ygrain]

I'm not sure where you get this idea that a member of the Kingsguard has to be with the King at all times. The only KG with Robert when he goes to Winterfell is Jaime and even he doesn't go with him when they go off to hunt (a clearly dangerous thing). Jaime stays behind to be with Cersei.

"Two of the Kingsguard had come north with King Robert. Bran had watched them with fascination, never quite daring to speak to them. Ser Boros was a bald man with a jowly face, and Ser Meryn had droopy eyes and a beard the color of rust."

Jaime is left behind when the rest of the KG goes to the Trident but that seems to be as much about Aerys keeping Jaime around to hold Tywin in check than anything else. Rhaegar basically says as much.

"“Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.”

So Jaime doesn't say only that he wants to come along but that another KG has to stay behind instead of him.

If you go back to Jaime's chapter when he assembles the KG, you see that the KG can leave the king under a protection of someone else but that it is for a short period of time, not weeks or months.

Also, if the Kingsguard should be with the King at all times, leaving three members with Lyanna and the theoretically 4th in the line of succession, is a really bad idea.

There is no-one else for Lyanna, whereas the rest of the royal family has an army.

No one goes with Rhaegar from the ToJ to KL.

And you know how? That was not stated anywhere. What prevents Rhaegar from e.g. taking a KG with him as far as Storms' End, then send him back and get an escort from the Targ forces laying siege there?

Why do they take Viserys to Dragonstone and not Elia and her children? The reason is that only the most rabid supporters of the rebels could have viewed an infant as a threat. No one thought it possible at the time of Viserys' flight that someone would kill Aegon. Ned and Robert fall out over the Mountain's actions afterwords. The Martells plot revenge for 18 years. Viserys on the other hand, is old enough to legitimately threaten Robert's rule. That's why he is sent to Dragonstone with the very pregnant Queen and Elia stays at KL. So, if no one views Aegon as a threat (except for the Mountain, Tywin and Robert), why would Rhaegar think that his unborn child's life was worth leaving three KG the ToJ? He wouldn't. He left the KG there to protect Lyanna. There's no evidence that after the sack of KL anything really changed for them.

Pardon? Elia with children were forced to stay at KL because Aerys was paranoid about Dorne, not because they were supposedly safe.

Viserys is eight, that is nowhere next to dangerous personally but by his claim.

Rhaella is not very pregnant, she is at the very beginning of her pregnancy since Dany is born 9 months later.

Once again: Lyanna was protected by three KG and only by three KG. There was no-one else available.

What the Sack of KL changed was the line of succession: Aerys and Aegon as his heir were killed.

Also, as long as Lyanna lives and the KG have her, she's a bargaining chip. They might have thought they could negotiate something with Robert if they gave Lyanna back or that Robert would be unwilling to attack Viserys as long as Lyanna was captive.

And under this scenario, what prevents them from splitting their number and cover both objectives?

They can protect the King without being physically with him.

Barristan disagrees. Take a look at his chapters in ADWD, where he says explicitely that he cannot protect Dany if he is not with her. Dany, though, is lost and he cannot go to her, whereas the KG know where Viserys is.

What if Lyanna was not pregnant from Rhaegar but from Aerys? He killed her father and brother and raped her.

Rhaegar was gay and him crowning Lyanna was just a distraction to annoy Cersei. Lyanna took it for more than it was and starts the tragic events.

When it is discovered that Lyanna is pregnant Rhaegar hides her at the ToJ because of guilt. Aerys sends for Rhaegar to fight at the Trident and orders the three KG to stay with Lyanna at all costs because she is his bargaining chip in case Rhaegar loses. Jaime fucks up the bargain by killing Aerys and Lyanna kills herself when Ned arrives out of guilt.

Timelines. Jon was conceived a few months into the Rebellion, to be born at its end.

[Twinslayer]

I'm not sure where you get this idea that a member of the Kingsguard has to be with the King at all times.

It's a modified version of the rule laid down by Aegon the Conqueror. When Aegon rode Balerion, he liked to take all seven of his kingsguard along as passengers to protect him. Maegor the Cruel changed it so only one of them had to ride on the dragon with him if the others had important duties elsewhere.

[Magnar Of Winterfell]

Only theory that makes sense to me is Lyanna went willingly. That would mean the Starks were wrong in their demand for Rhaegar's head, though they could have more politely asked Aerys to discipline his son. Without the confrontation at KL, Aerys gives no order for Ned's and Robert's heads and there is no war. So the deep dark secret that Ned carried was that the whole war was unnecessary.

Still weak to me. Personally, I subscribe to R+L=J. We might find out before the end of TWOW.

Yep, Fault of the Stark's, Lyanna is not irresponsible or anything,,,Carry on.

[Ludd]

Has anyone considered that Lyanna was Aerys's prisoner not Rhaegar's. The KG are bound to the KING not Prince. This would explain why the KG were there.

I think in fact Rhaegar was also a prisoner there - he was NEVER at the Trident. However perhaps he WAS killed at the ToJ. Remember Aerys was super paranoid.

[aquintus]

Has anyone considered that Lyanna was Aerys's prisoner not Rhaegar's. The KG are bound to the KING not Prince. This would explain why the KG were there.

I think in fact Rhaegar was also a prisoner there - he was NEVER at the Trident. However perhaps he WAS killed at the ToJ. Remember Aerys was super paranoid.

fanfiction.net

[Ser Creighton]

Has anyone considered that Lyanna was Aerys's prisoner not Rhaegar's. The KG are bound to the KING not Prince. This would explain why the KG were there.

I think in fact Rhaegar was also a prisoner there - he was NEVER at the Trident. However perhaps he WAS killed at the ToJ. Remember Aerys was super paranoid.

Yes people have considered it, and no it was not the case. Aerys had been searching for Rhaegar for most of the War according to JL. If he doesn't know where his supposed prisoner is then she is not much of a prisoner, it would also make no sense for him to not have his prisoner in KL where she can be used as a bargaining chip.

Rhaegar was not a Prisoner he was the one person Aerys still trusted which is why he was given command of the army and came and went at his choosing even convincing his father to send a letter to Tywin.

Not at the Trident??? We know he was at the Trident we have like 60,000 eye witness accounts including Ned and Robert who killed him there. JL watched him ride off to the Trident. Do you think Robert could not recognize his own cousin?

[alienarea]

snip

Timelines. Jon was conceived a few months into the Rebellion, to be born at its end.

So what? I wrote Aerys raped Lyanna, but not he raped her while killing Rickard and Brandon. And even if he had done so, he could have raper her again, couldn't he?

And a few months into the rebellion both Aerys and Lyanna are alive. Aerys is most likely in Kings Landing and Lyanna's whereabouts are undisclosed.

[Ygrain]

So what? I wrote Aerys raped Lyanna, but not he raped her while killing Rickard and Brandon. And even if he had done so, he could have raper her again, couldn't he?

And a few months into the rebellion both Aerys and Lyanna are alive. Aerys is most likely in Kings Landing and Lyanna's whereabouts are undisclosed.

Well, Aerys definitely is in KL because his paranoia doesn't let him leave it (hence the big surprise when he attends the HH tourney) but the fact that Lyanna's whereabouts are undisclosed doesn't mean that there is any chance of her being in KL.

[Zaphodess]

One thing that doesn't quite fit is that both Rhaegar and Lyanna would be selfish enough to accept a civil war for the sake of their love and say nothing at all. That's why I propose it was the other way round. They weren't in love, Rhaegar wasn't the one who had raped Lyanna, it was his mad father, who also tortured her cruelly. Rhaegar saved her and hid her in the ToL and asked those KG men who he trusted to protect her from both her kin and the King - and to prevent her escape. His plan was to marry her in order to quell the rebellion: her honour would be restored and the Starks can't complain if she makes a better marriage deal than they had planned; Robert might growl but he can't gainsay a prince. This plan would only work if he took the blame for the rape on himself, and if he managed to convince Lyanna to pretend it was consensual and they did it all for love. Only problem: He's already married and his wife has important relatives. So Elia had to die from a natural death. Funny thing her health was supposed to be so delicate. But sacrifices have to be made if one wants to keep throne and realm.

King Aerys messed things up for him pretty badly when he killed Rickard and Brandon, but not all was lost yet. A marriage with Lyanna could still restore the peace. Even after the Trident and the sacking of KL, there were still Targaryens out there who could be married to her. Viserys was eight, about the age Tommen married a woman grown too. So the KG defended her to the death - even from and maybe especially from her own brother.

Lyanna had been persuaded to play along by Rhaegar at one point and is so ashamed that she tries to kill herself. That's why Ned found her in a bed of blood. She makes him promise to take her bones back to Winterfell and to never tell anyone the truth, least of all Robert.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

One thing that doesn't quite fit is that both Rhaegar and Lyanna would be selfish enough to accept a civil war for the sake of their love and say nothing at all.

I don't buy that. Isn't the song Rhaegar sings to Lyanna at Harrenhal about being trapped by duty or something like that? That's what they have in common: they want out of the system. Rhaegar has been told since birth that he is the Prince that was Promised. He's supposed to be the perfect King. When he meets Lyanna he finds someone similarly unhappy with playing the role their fathers have planned for them. Lyanna's is betrothed to a man she doesn't love and worse, doesn't trust.

The easiest solution for R+L=? if it isn't Jon (and by the way, I actually do think it is Jon, I just like playing devil's advocate) is that everything about the theory is correct except for who the child is. So Meera Reed or (f)Aegon are the child of R+L and Jon is the progeny of Ned and Ashara Dayne. I really like the Meera Reed idea because she could just as easily be the blue rose stuck in the wall of ice. She's already around the wall and if Bran ever leaves the cave, it will likely be to come south with Meera. She has Lyanna's tomboy persona. She's honourable like Rhaegar. It would have been very easy for Howland Reed to take her back to Greywater Watch after the ToJ. No one would ever find her there and we know nothing about Howland's wife except that her name rhymes with Lyanna. There's no reason to believe that she wouldn't have accepted the lie.

[King Benjen II]

Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark are Jon Snow's parents. Arthur and his two Kingsguard brothers were defending his son.

Rhaegar met up with Lyanna too late. She was already pregnant.

Jon Snow's parents are Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark.

Bonus: Rhaegar had a child with Ashara Dayne....Gerold Dayne aka Darkstar.

[King Benjen II]

Or Jon is the product of R+A. Jon wonders who his mother is and there she is naked in a river.

[Saint Saga]

Sorry, double post

[Saint Saga]

I think that Ashara is related to the "sacrifices" that said to have and endured to keep his promise to Lyana.Maybe her death happened because of the lie he created.

[Saint Saga]

I think that Ashara is related to the "sacrifices" that said to have and endured to keep his promise to Lyana.Maybe her death happened because of the lie he created.

[dwolf]

What if Lyanna was already pregnant when Rhaegar kidnapped her with Robert's child. Rhaegar loved her and believed the child was his so he set the kingsguard to protect her. This would mean the events at the Tower of Joy still play out where she dies in childbirth and Ned promises to protect her son by hiding him. And who do we know that is Robert's bastard and was born at about the right time? Gendry. 

[purple-eyes]

At this moment I think it is safe to say RLJ is 100% true. The mysteries left were something like why Rhaegar did this, why Lyanna allowed this, how Arthur died, how Ned found TOJ, etc. 

 

But, if GRRM really wanted to surprise us for surprising us, then I will go with this:

Jon is the child of Lyanna and Areys. The rose crowning thing made Aerys notice her and then took her by force.

Rhaegar took her to TOJ to protect her from his dad. 

Areys ordered 3 KG to protect Lyanna and their son. 

 

But I can also go with this:

Nobody is Jon's father. He is like baby Jesus and Lyanna is like Virgin Mary. 

She had him by herself by some mysterious power and Rhaegar was very religious so he decided to protect this savior baby. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Ok you want different...

R+L=Dany

Spirited off by ship from Starfall and meets up with Vyseris once his mother dies in a miscarriage. This helps explain why there is a wolf in the tent with Mirri Maz Dur.


Ashara and Brandon Stark= Jon

If the star of house Dayne ends up being red in their coat of arms he could be born amidst salt and smoke, bellow a bleeding red star.

Not trolling just crackpot